I am in the process of replacing the front lower ball joints of my Fiero with new Moog upper ball joints for a 1975 Cadillac Coupe DeVille.
Most of this info is from LowCG who has done this install.
I received my ball joints last Friday only to find out that one had been used (bent) and missing the hold down nut. So I will be shipping it back tomorrow and go from there.
I will post this like an article. I will post pictures of the install with captions.

So how exactly does using a caddie ball joint lower the car? And just how much does it lower the car anyways? Just curious

I just did my entire suspension and the only way I can see how a ball joint lowers a car would be if the lower ball joint had a shorter height. But we are talking a fraction of an inch. The suspension height is determined by the spindle and springs. If you mean you are swapping spindles that is fine but just changing ball joints will not lower your car.

That's what I was thinking.......I just thought maybe I was missing something.

I'll take a poke at that question (please correct me if I'm wrong)...

The height of the front end is based on a several things: the physical location of the spindle shaft on the spindle frame; the height of the spindle frame(the distance between the upper ball joint hole and the lower ball joint hole) and; the angle of the lower A-arm. Therefore, if you change any of these items, you change the relationship of the body to the centerline of the wheel.

Changing the spindle shaft location is most desirable if you want to maintain stock ride. This modification is usually done my installing re-cast spindles. These are getting hard to find and very expensive. Hence, this thread.

Because the spring is fixed to the body at the top and floats on the lower A-arm, cuting coils off of your front springs or installing shorter springs will change the angle of the lower A-arm. When the angle is reduced, again you change the relationship of the body to the centerline of the wheel and the result is a lower front end.

By installing the taller Caddy ball joints in the lower A-arm of the Fiero, you effectively lengthen the spindle frame. Since the spring rate and length is unchanged the lower arm angle is unchanged. But, the upper A-arm floats. When the spindle frame is lengthened from below (because the Caddy ball joint is longer), it pushes the spindle and the uper A-arm up and again, changes the relationship of the body to the centerline of the wheel. The result is a lower front end.

Roy

Condensed version, the longer upper Caddy ball joint needs to be welded to the lower Fiero control arm. This moves the spindle position up, or in other words, moves the body down with little if any change in suspension geometry or spring rates. This is what a drop spindle does, relocate the plane of the axle.

[This message has been edited by batboy (edited 04-25-2000).]

OK I understand how it works but isn't that going to affect other things? Since the distance between the A-arms is now "longer" It would seem to me that would over time put more strain on the ball joints. What about the rack end seals? Since the tie rods would be angled up higher than normal during turning or hard cornering. I would think this might cause future problems due to the change in geometry of the of the susupension.

You are also going to change the distance between the upper and lower control arms. This will change the way the camber angle reacts to suspension movement and may create bumpsteer problems. Might not be real noticable, but anytime any dimensions on a suspension are changed it will affect handling and usually not to the good!

This is similar to a dropped spindle.
The ball joint is taller in turn raises the spindle which lowers the car.
The upper a-arm will use slots at the ball joints to correct the angle.
The pic bellow is how I interpret the way the suspension sits.
Please note this is just a simple drawing not engineered specs of any kind.
Also it may be totally wrong.

Batboy,

In my business, what you called the "Condensed version", we call the "Executive Summary". Thanks for the assist.

Roy

I wonder what Moog or McQuay-Norris would charge to do a run of custom (tall) ball joints, something that would install into the Fiero control arms without welding?

Mike B.

Great idea! I move that Mike heads up a committee to look into that matter.

Here comes some progress.
Ok here is the comparison pic.

I have removed the lower a-arms.
The pic below shows how I put the jack under the a-arm and a jack stand under the rotor. There is another jack stand holding the front of the car up. This way the spring wouldn’t fly out and I could let the pressure off of the spring easily.

Spyder,

Keep the pictures coming!

Roy

Ok, I wasn’t planning on working on this tonight but I was bored at work and had my stuff with me.

Below is a pic of the Caddy ball joints.

The one on the left has the portion of metal that needs to be taken off. I took a hack saw and did two small cuts where the red dots are. I didn’t cut all the way through. Then took a pair of pliers and wiggled it a little and then slid the portion of metal off.

This is a better pic of the comparison of the ball joints.

This pic is a comparison of the Fiero ball joint still mounted and the Caddy where it will be mounted.
Can you tell which is which? LOL

Thats cool Spyder. Good pics of the process. I remember reading the thread that lowCG started but don't recall...

You need to replace the upper AND lower Fiero BJ's with all '75 caddy Coupe Deville BJ's???

Please keep us updated.

Ozzy

I can't speak for what Spyder's doing, but LowCG's method puts the Caddy ball joints on the lower control arm and regular Fiero ones on the uppers.

I recommend installing Moog adjustable upper ball joints for better alignment postions.

You replace just the Fiero lower a-arm ball joints with the Caddy upper a-arm ball joints.
The Fiero upper a-arm will need to have slots installed to allow for adjustment.
I am using replacement Fiero Moog upper a-arm ball joints which is designed to be adjustable (stock is not adjustable) so I may not need to do the slot thing.
Here is a pic of LowCG’s upper ball joint with slots installed:

Actually, there is one adjustment you can do on the OEM style upper ball joint. Turn it 180 degrees, very limited and not precise. That's why the adjustable ones are best.

Looks like you've nearly got it,but remember;

TIG welds,a little at a time,then cool down.

You must slot the upper A-arm,even with the Moog balljoint.

When assembling the upper A-arm to the Balljoint,put the A-arm above ,or on top of the balljoint.

You might need a washer under the lower balljoint hold down nut if you run out of threads on the stud.

Also just noticed that your Balljoint was sitting on the control arm,in position,here I would place the open side of the balljoint facing forward(opposite of how it appears in the photo)to eliminate the possibility of interference btween the stud and socket if/when the wheel were to move rearward after hitting a large bump.

[This message has been edited by lowCG (edited 05-03-2000).]

lowCG or anyone who can help.
To make sure.
Is the ball joint ,like it is in this pic with the diagram, facing the proper direction?
I will be having them welded on Monday or Tuesday.
So far so good.
This is the way the Caddy ball joints would be facing mounted on the Caddy.
But thinking the way a bump would hit it would seem like the other direction would be better.

That should be correct, any front to back movement would be only what the bushings allow. All the real control arm movement is arcing up and down, so the pic is right.

I've always mounted mine 180 degrees different from the picture you posted,figuring that the lower control arm will move rearward a bit when hitting bumps, with the bushings being softer on the lower control arm. May work fine the way you have it shown,but my test mule,er,uh,car has a few thousand miles on it the other way.

Otherwise looks good.

Remember TIG weld a little(a third of the circumference)at a time,then cool,or you'll soon have to grind away some very expensive parts and start over!

Well,
Today after talking to several people and a welder, I am going to have to modify my plans.
The welding is just not safe enough for me.This may be fine for a regular Fiero install but I’m using spacers on the front with my wheels I’m just worried with the extra stress on that area.
So Stay Tuned,……...More To Come.

Ok, Follow Up!

I ended up taking the a-arms to a metal fabrication shop.
They ended up cutting out the old ball joint hole so the new larger ball joint could be pressed in, but before they did that they welded a plate on top of that hole and cut out a matching hole into the top plate. Pressed the ball joint in and then spot welded the bottom of the ball joint.
I took some pics, I didn’t have the digital camera with me. So it will be a few days.
I installed the a-arms on the car tonight. The ride height is exactly where I wanted it.
I still have to add the slits to the upper ball joints, the wheels lean in a little right now.
Also I have to adjust the stance, the front wheels are facing like someone bow legged.
I will do some more work tomorrow night and hopefully I’ll have a happy post tomorrow.

Also, the cost has been $225.00.

Spyder,

Thanks for the update. I, too, would like to lower the front of my car without adversely affecting the ride quality, but the price of the Cadillac conversion is getting pretty steep.

I sent a note to "Street Dreams" http://www.iserv.net/~strdream/ and asked for an update on their lowered spindles. They responded with, "I need to contact the foundry and get an update on their progress".

They didn't quote me a price - which is to say they currently don't know. I asked them to keep me posted on their progress.

I haven't ruled out the ball-joint solution as of yet. I'm just trying to hold out for the spindles. Maybe if a few more of us sent them a note inquiring about the spindle status, they would push the foundry a little harder.

Roy

Yep, that's been the standard Street Dreams response to all Fiero drop spindles inquiries for the last year. Might as well forget them, doubt it will ever make it to production.

Sounds like you've achieved something!,not sure if you haven't just made the end portion of the control arm weaker by removing the formed "0",and I sincerely hope the spot welds are enough.
If I had done somthing like that I think I would have had a sleeve made,welded it completely(360DEG)to the control arm,then pressed the balljoint in,with a spotweld at that point.
The price of the spindles doesn't include new balljoints,I assume,so the price for that (now obsolete)method is getting higher...

Just noticed your diagram(12:53,2-6-00)is indeed correct,the photo previous was reversed,and I didn't get that diagram until today.

[This message has been edited by lowCG (edited 06-13-2000).]

Spyder,
Sorry I'm a little late with this but I just got my new computer up and running.

My question is: How much does this mod lower the front end and how does it feel when driving?

All said and done 1 inch to 1 1/4 inches.
If it was done on top of the ball joint: 1 1/2 inches.

The ride, I don’t know yet, but I’m using lowering springs also with Koni adjustable shocks, poly bushings, and a sway bar, minus the steering dampener. So I’ll never really know what the effects would be.

I tried it on a car without any other changes to see if there were any bad effects,and it turned out that by flattening out the upper control arms,as opposed to having them point downward on a stock car,you get less camber change over bumps,and the car rides better because(?) the weight/mass of the wheel/tire/spindle is moving in the direction of the spring,and not deflecting outward,which allows the mass/weight of the wheel to move in an un-controlled way,out-of-line from the shock/spring.Or something like that.
Basically it felt like the car didn't react,or jump as much over bumps,imperfections.
Slight improvement,but enough to have done it to a second car,where I have stiffer springs and appreciate it even more.