Can it be done?

I keep seeing discussions about various V-6 swaps costing $4000 and up. I have noticed that most of that discussion has dealt with situations where they advocate using used engines and other used parts.

On most V-8 swaps we do, we use new crate engines and mostly new everything else. Now you already know that Master-Build kit runs $3150 and includes virtually all NEW parts.

Now it has occurred to me that a SBC swap can be accomplished for less that $4K if we apply the same "Used Parts" criteria that we see with other types of swaps.

As I've said before, most of the items in our Master-Build V-8 Conversion Kit can be purchased used at automotive swap meets, EBay and other online sources. You won't have the ALL NEW V-8 swap like I do for my customers, but you will have a fully functional & useable SBC V-8 Fiero. For example, our Starter runs about $200 new, but I've seen them used at swap meets for $30 to $50.

There will be a major automotive Swap Meet in the Chicago area this weekend & I'm thinking about starting to aquire the parts needed at that swap meet.

What do you think? Would anyone be interested in me building this Virtual SBC V-8 swap online?

Archie

I think it is worth looking into......a lot of people (myself included) feel comfortable with used parts (or is that recycled? ).

I have been tossing around the idea of a V-8 in my '88 GT, but I just don't have the $$ to do it "right" with all new parts and a new engine. Obviously going all new is the best way, but I would be willing to take the risk, so to speak, with some used parts and a used engine.

LMK what you come up with.

Does that $4,000 include welding the main pulley to the crankshaft as well as running the drive belt for the water pump within the confines of the rear passenger wheel well, just curious, will that also include the price of towing if I were to have a blow out, seeing as how the deflated tire would damage the drive system for the water pump?

Archie;we kept track when I did my TPIV8/5sp
swap and the entire deal encluding the price
of the car was barely 5000.00!this encluded
a 60,000mi engine which I freshend-up,but
did not rebiuld.P.S.-my wife is an accountant
so she makes me keep track of every penny!!!
So I say hell ya! lets do one on line!.P.P.S.
WCF-my V8 car has a serpentine belt system
thats inside the engine compartment and the engine is completely rubber mounted!

[This message has been edited by elfiero (edited 06-29-2001).]

[This message has been edited by elfiero (edited 06-29-2001).]

i just picked up a bare block that could possibly be built to be a 302 or 327. i'd like to see what you could do in "penny pinch" mode. might make it seem more doable.

my sincerest appologies, I had assumed that all of Archies kits were assyembled just as described in his install video, but I am curious, If Archie has done this so many times, why does he have to "trial fit" each one, are the tolorances of the kit that far off?

quote Originally posted by West Coast Fiero: (yadda, yadda, yadda)

Actually, I was planning to use a CSI electric pump.

At first when I looked at your post, I thought, why would this guy even care. Then I went to your web site and saw that most of your V-6 kit swaps cost over $4K (and don't include the used engine & harness).

So you'd like to discourage an apples to apples comparison.

Well sir, this wasn't ment as a threat to your business. This is my thread and if you don't want to participate in a positive manner, then stay away. If you are afraid that you'll loose business if this plan goes ahead, then I'd suggest you start your own similar thread dealing with an affordable V-6 swap.

BTW, what are you smoking tonight? I no longer have to look at the video instructions to build a V-8 car. That video instruction tape is for the customers who haven't installed a V-8 before. I ask them to "trial fit" it into the car, so that they can confirm that they've done everything correctly so far.

All your talk about trial fits and w/p drives doesn't hide the fact that you're really concerned about a fair (apples to apples) comparison between various engine swap alternatives.

Thank You for your input.

Archie

The V-8 swap is attractive, especially with the LS-1 kit comming out. But the LT-1 swap isn't bad, even though it adds 80 lbs (per Archie) where you don't want it. I think it can be overcome with a few mods like battery and suspension modifications. But the only thing that diminishes my interest in a V-8 swap is the fact that a transmission with a reasonable ratio doesn't exist (to my knowledge). The LT-1 is a torque monster, which is news to no one. It likes to make its power and reside at about 2,000 - 2,500 rpm, with occassional strides to red line when needed. My 94 Z-28 Camaro with a 6 speed has a transmission output ratio of .50, diff ratio of 3.42, which is ideal. Getrag or Isuzu FD ratios are much higher, which is ideal for the 2.8, 3.1, 3.4, 3.4TDC, and maybe the 3.8. But when you install a motor that makes that much low rpm torque, you never get to realize the enormity of the engines potential due to transmission limitations. I found that Isuzu place: http://www.isuzuperformance.com/ said they can have special ordered gear sets for $1500, but haven't tried any yet. He couldn't attest to what ratios could be ordered or the performace/durability of them. Also, they carry no warranty. So Archie, I don't think I'm alone with these concerns. Your kits carry a strong reputation, why don't you R&D some transmission options with statistical results? I think it would pay off in the long run, and might pull people like me off the fence who feel that it wouldn't be totally beneficial to install an engine that couldn't have its performance fully realized. The trade-off is weight for HP/torque. If the HP can't be realized, or is less driveable because you have to wind the engine out of its comfortable power band, then it might be more beneficial to install something like the 3.4 TDC, where you have more redline potential and HP than the 2.8, while shedding a few pounds. To me, installing a 350 in front of a Getrag/Isuzu is like installing a 1340 Harley motor in front of a Suzuki GSXR transmission.

Whoa buddy - easy, I only have honest questions. No worries, I am not worried about the "losing buisness" aspect, I am just curious as to how the longetivity is of your swaps, have you had problems with electric water pumps simpy not keeping up with the demands of the engine?

Also, the way the video was put together, I was under the impression that YOU yourself had to trial fit each one, no worries - I must not have been paying attention.

I know that there has been more threads about clutches in V-8 Fieros than you can count, but has there been a cluth manufactured yet that will hold up to the V-8 given that the disk diameter cannot exceed 9 11/16" ?

Dont jump down my throat when all I want to do is ask questions, Im sure you have alot of assumptions on what my motives are, but the fact remains - I simply have questions

.... Do you still put the cars up on stacks of cinder blocks to perform the swaps?

quote Originally posted by West Coast Fiero: I only have honest questions. .... Do you still put the cars up on stacks of cinder blocks to perform the swaps?

Yeah, the question about cinderblocks is an honest question. Sounds like a question that is aimed more as a Flame.

Remember, you are the one who started the insults.

How come you signed on this new PFF I.D. today? Did you not want to use your other I.D. to flame me?

You probally would rather have me ingaged in a flame war than to do what I set out to do with this thread.

So, excuse me while I ignore you.

Why don't you change your I.D. again so you can take a different approach at flaming me?

If you pay attention to this thread, and quit trying to starting a flame war, you may actually learn something.

Archie

I signed on today because my old ID was C M WEST, which is my father, Chris West, I however wanted a new tag because I am the one here at the shop always on Pennocks - so I figured what could be better than the buisness name

nothing is intended as a flame, take the questions as you may, I am only playing your game after asking me " what I have been smoking" - ON WITH THE POSTS

we can both sit here and say foul things to each other all day - but we both have better things to do, are you eventually going to ask these questions, or do I have to dodge the flames from you?

[This message has been edited by West Coast Fiero (edited 06-30-2001).]

[This message has been edited by West Coast Fiero (edited 06-30-2001).]

Archie I am right at or under $4K with virtually all new stuff. My expenses are right at $3700. This includes your econo stick shift kit and a professionally rebuilt 350. Everything else I needed for the swap is brand new. Looking back I think I could have gone with a low mile TPI system and painless wiring kit for a little over or right at $4000K.

I'm just going to rattle off a list of parts I bought or had made for this swap: CSI waterpump, Custom built 4core radiator, Tilton Superstarter, Centerforce Dual Friction clutch, Optima Battery, Edelbrock intake and Carb, a whole slew of Moroso & Holley speed parts.

I have spent the last two years getting ready/preparing & doing the labor for this swap and that is mainly why I saved a bunch of money. The only stuff I didn't do were the assembly/rebuild/machining of the motor and the exhaust work. I also got a real STEAL on the exhaust job($150 for install and materials other than muffler/tips). It really helps also if you search around the internet for the expensive parts if you want them new. The exhaust is going to be finished on Monday, I CAN"T WAIT!

One thing else I should mention. I saved a chunk of money buying the Econo kit from Archie instaed of his master Kit. I lost A LOT of time however buy having to source out the rest of the parts that were needed with the Econo Kit. I must have made at least a hundred trips (no joke)to various auto part stores, speed shops, hardware stores, dealerships whatever to find the parts or "solutions" to many of my interesting (but fun!) problems along the way.

It would be hard for me to put a time frame on how long it took me to complete this swap(still working out a couple gremlins) as I started on one Fiero then switched it all over to another Fiero. I also have been replacing/upgrading things like the brakes, suspension, and interior during the swap of the V8.

Sorry about the long post, just getting excited as I will finally be able to drive this car after buying it last August!

Jim

87 GT
87 GT T-Top V8

[This message has been edited by Jimmy (edited 06-30-2001).]

anyway....

I probably could pull off a v8 swap for 3 grand or less. Not including the cost of the car and trans rebuild. Engines in illinois are really cheap at the junkyard, and if you know how to rebuild them on your own then you got it made. This is a non fuel injection v8 which will be a quicker and easier swap.

And you own majority of tools that you use already on your car because this isn't your first time fixing something.

my pros for a carbed v8 is no crap with sensors, dependibility, and that sweet loud noise.

Also, if anyone read HotRod magazine, archies name was in it, sort of.
Couple hate mails because last months Hotrod had a 3.8 i believe fiero and many people prefer v-8s and suggested why not a archies kit swap then a v6.

Oh and about those CSI waterpumps, they are one of if not the best when it comes to flow and longevity of electric waterpumps. They do about double what an electric Moroso waterpump would do for flow. The only downfall to this pump is that you still need to cut a hole (which is covered by wheel well liner) in the wheel well to gain access and for a little clearance. Oh and they run about $240 and $95 dollars for a new motor should you ever need one.

Jim

87 GT
87 GT T-Top V8

Are you guys gonna fight in public, or is someone going to answer my questions? TIA, Ed.

quote Originally posted by EdsB52: Are you guys gonna fight in public, or is someone going to answer my questions? TIA, Ed So Archie, I don't think I'm alone with these concerns. Your kits carry a strong reputation, why don't you R&D some transmission options with statistical results?

Well the only real question I see in your post is the one I quote above, here is the answer to that one.... On the subject of transmissions, I've spent the last 15 years proving that the Isuzu transmissions will not self destruct with a V-8 engine, yet some people will not believe me. How many years (& $) do you think it will take me to R&D those items to the point to where the results will be accepted?

There is at least one other thread going on about transmission options. I have chosen not to participate in that thread. I have yet to see one message in that thread where a guy that actually has a V-8 Fiero 5 speed is complaining about ratios.

You seem to want a ratio that would lower the RPM at a given speed. While that is desirable, it would come at a cost of low end Torque & it would increase the potential top end. Well IMHO, only a crazy person would drive a short wheelbase car over 150-160mph.

In your statement you say that the LT1 "...likes to make its power and reside at about 2,000 - 2,500 rpm", I think that if you check your information you'll find that the power band on any SBC engine is much wider than 500 RPM and extends much higher than 2500. The wide SBC torque band is the reason that the popular V-6 swaps will never beat a good SBC 0 to 100mph. (yeah alright start flaming me, & telling me there are exceptions to that) I know there are exceptions....what I'm saying is that the SBC torque will outrun most all other swaps to 100+mph. A 3.8 SC might be able to run a little more RPM than some SBC's, but that means that the 6 banger will have to be going over 150 MPH before the driver can start beating his chest.

Now, you can see why I chose not to be involved in that other Axle ratio thread, I didn't want to say anything that hurt the feelings of the 6 banger guys (many of them are my friends). But IMHO, there is no way that I'll ever agree with your statement "...which is ideal for the 2.8, 3.1, 3.4, 3.4TDC, and maybe the 3.8. But when you install a motor that makes that much low rpm torque, you never get to realize the enormity of the engines potential due to transmission limitations." Even if it never runs at 100% of it's potential, I'll take the SBC and it's torque anyday. I can cruise at 100 and go up to 140 in the blink of an eye. You can't do that without torque. And I'll get to 100 a long time before most 6 bangers will.

Now don't flame me, he asked for me to get involved in a discussion I tried to avoid.

Now, if you don't mind.... we'll try to get back on topic.

Archie

I have been toying with a v-8 swap and since I am going to drop the cradle on my GT, now would be a great time for the swap. I would like to follow Archie on his swap meet parts hunt. If he can get all the parts needed for under $4k, I would love to duplicate his purchases. I have to contend with California smog so hopefully this is going to be fuel injected and not carbs.

[This message has been edited by speed1 (edited 06-30-2001).]

Well, I got about as much cooperation in your response as I did when I phoned you at home about three weeks ago. The central issue was, and still is with me; the gear ratios in the Getrag and Isuzu transmissions are insufficient to fully realize the torque and HP capabilities of the LT-1/LS-1 engines, as well as deliver 'comfortable' driving rpm's. I never mentioned anything about durability of the Getrag or Isuzu when coupled with an LT-1.

I think you missed the crux of my issue, and not so accidentally. Just as you refused to engage yourself in that other post (referring to gear ratio insufficiencies). The following fact is irrefutable, regardless of what car in which you install an LT-1/LS-1. The LT-1 does not like, nor need to be run at constant rpm's of anywhere near 3,000 rpm. At 90mph, the Getrag and Isuzu run at right near 3,000 rpm. My 94 Z-28 with a 6 speed runs at 2,400 rpm at 100mph. It runs at 1,100 rpm at 60mph and can still roll on from there without lugging.

Archie wrote;

"You seem to want a ratio that would lower the RPM at a given speed. While that is desirable, it would come at a cost of low end Torque & it would increase the potential top end. Well IMHO, only a crazy person would drive a short wheelbase car over 150-160mph."

Again, that torque monster doesn't care about 1,000rpm roll-ons and doesn't know what it is to lug as a result of low rpm's. The crank to final drive ratio is 1.71 crank revolutions to 1 wheel revolution if my comprehension and math is correct (.50 x 3.42). It's almost impossible to lug my Camaro, and it's 7-800 lbs heavier.

Archie then wrote;

"In your statement you say that the LT1 "...likes to make its power and reside at about 2,000 - 2,500 rpm", I think that if you check your information you'll find that the power band on any SBC engine is much wider than 500 RPM and extends much higher than 2500."

You're being abstract and outright purposely misconstruing my intent behind that statement. Just because an engine 'likes' to reside at a given rpm, doesn't mean it won't operate outside of it. You can certainly tach out any engine, including a SBC. But when it comes to cruising rpm where a given speed and rpm is going to be maintained, engines tend to like to stay at different rpms. Usually a harmonic resonance accompanies that like or dislike of rpm. To run an LT-1 at 2,800 - 3,000 rpm is crazy and unnecessary.

Archie then wrote;

"The wide SBC torque band is the reason that the popular V-6 swaps will never beat a good SBC 0 to 100mph."

I'll agree with the exception of the 3.8 SCII. You would have a little more rpm range before shifting and negligible torque difference. And how about when the road fails to cooperate and remain straight? The added weight would surely benefit the 3.8 by a long shot, given equal drivers. For strict road racing, I would bet my life that the 3.4 TDC is the best engine discussed. For strict drag racing, I would strongly contend the LS-1 is the best engine discussed because the driver doesn't care about taching the motor out for short periods. In fact, the 4 speed transmission might be even better than either 5 speed. But for overall combination driving, the 3.8 SCII sounds like a fair compromise, unless a transmission with better ratios was developed for the LT-1/LS-1.

Archie then wrote;

"Even if it never runs at 100% of it's potential, I'll take the SBC and it's torque anyday. I can cruise at 100 and go up to 140 in the blink of an eye. You can't do that without torque. And I'll get to 100 a long time before most 6 bangers will."

Yes, you certainly can cruise at 100 mph and roll it on and be up to 140 in the blink of an eye. At 100 mph with the two discussed transmissions you're taching about 3,800-4,000 rpm, that SBC is wound way tighter than it should be at that speed. I'm guessing the fastest a SBC Fiero would go with either of the two transmissions is 140, depending upon engine redline. And no, I don't think a SBC would beat 'any' 6 banger by a long time.

Archie then wrote;

"Now don't flame me, he asked for me to get involved in a discussion I tried to avoid."

Please don't make yourself too big a victim. The one time I called you I received mostly sarcasm. You were more sarcastic in your reply to me than constructive. And I don't know Ace or West, although I have spoken to them on one occasion, but I have a more positive feeling from them in regard to customer support and information. That's not a statement of their product or yours, just their willingness to help. Maybe you have more business than you can handle and feel you don't need to be congenial with potential customers.

"Now, if you don't mind.... we'll try to get back on topic."

I thought this was part of the topic. You advertised that this mod could be done for less than $4,000. It was obvious a comparison was being made to other engine conversions. Well, isn't it reasonable and objective to compare all of the attributes with the various conversions being compared? Or is it just that yours is cheaper and that's all that matters? I think you know the one deficiency with a SBC conversion is the transmission. You're obviously aware of it, so why don't you constructively reply to that? If you say you're in the business of engine conversions to Fieros and that's where it ends, then say it. But if you want to expand the potential of your product, then do some R&D into a better transmission RATIO, not a more durable transmission, a better RATIO.

wow i dont dare say anything in this thread. but i would like to see the 4k swap too. i have been researching the 3800 sc swap for while now. what kind of gas milage could i expect if i went with a v8?
same as the 3800 sc?

i think i'll go to your site again archie and look around again.

Wow, talk about smacking a gift horse in the mouth with a 2X4! Here I am getting all excited about a great idea (much more power for less money) from a guy that would probably not profit a bit from the venture, and may even loose some future profits if it worked out well. I admire you for attempting to do something like this Archie. I can only hope that the few immature members of the forum do not discourage such a novel approach as this.

i've tried to avoid every flame war since i've been on this forum, but can i just say, will you guys please go away and/or argue this somewhere else? i actually have my own concerns (i've never liked that pulley through the wheelwell deal), but i want to see this done. if i get serious enough about it to set a plan in motion i'll ask more detailed questions myself, but for now why not let this thread be what it was meant to be?

if you feel your concerns add to the numbers and prices that come up in this thread adjust them for you (as i would have to do trying to stay in the engine compartment). you're really not helping.

quote Originally posted by EdsB52: Well, I got about as much cooperation in your response as I did when I phoned you at home about three weeks ago.

Well sir, I don't even know you and don't recall our phone conversation. However, considering your long winded discussions on this and the fact that you refuse to accept MY answer to YOUR question, leads me to believe that you already know everything you need to know on this subject.

I honestly don't remember a phone discussion about ratios, but if you called me at home then it was after 7pm my time. And it was after I'd just spent 11 hours at the shop. By then, if you carried on like you are here, I'm sure that I would have tired of talking about it very quickly. Besides, I was probally trying to eat my dinner about that time of the night.

Just so I'm perfectly clear on this, the answer to your original question is.....

NO, No, I'm NOT going to invest 10's of thousands of dollars building and testing and doing statistical analysis of different rear axle ratios when you already know all the answers.

Thanks for writing.

PS, you guys that want this topic to continue, need not worry. I will not be sidetracked by these guys.

Archie

SC3800's RULE

EdsB52 is my hero!!!

Unbelieveable. It just seems there is no winning with some elements of the Fiero community. Most of the time, people are asking how to make cheap knock offs of products that are already available, tested and ready for use, from established suppliers. If someone comes along with something new, it's remarkable how often they get hassled for being too expensive or trying to rip everyone off. Now, someone offers to put effort into coming up with a lower cost alternative for those Fiero owners who may have bought their Fiero in part because it was 1/4 the price of a similar age Corvette, and the guys gets abuse. (if it was not intended as abuse, then it was poorly delivered, because thats how it sounded to me) The fact is that many of us just can't justify dropping $10-$15 grand on all the fanciest, brand new equipment for our summer weekend toy. In order to be able to participate in the fun of building and modifying our Fieros, we have to look carefully and find the best values, and ways of using them that will not be more hassle than they are worth. I thought that was one of the main reasons for the existence of a forum like this one. When an established supplier offers to help out with this, it's hard to believe that anyone would have a problem with them. Archie - with regards to the proposal in your original post, yes absolutely, by all means, and thanks for offering.

EdsB52:

If you don't think an LT1/LS1 is a good match for the 5 speeds available to you, then don't do the conversion.

This is now the 3rd thread that I've seen you in whining about drive ratios and how those motors will supposedly self destruct in 50k from running at 3000 rpm 'cause you like to drive at 90 all the time.

I think those motors with proper maintenance and Mobil 1 with hold up just fine, and I don't think either motor is the least bit afraid of seeing 3000 rpm.

Your opinion is your own. Stop trying to bludgeon other people with it.

You obviously want a 6 speed. You can't have one in a Fiero. Sorry. Stick to your Z28

and Archie: That's an excellent idea. Thanks for thinking of those of us with big dreams and small budgets.

------------------

88GT 5sp, in desperate need of an LT1
http://www.geocities.com/fiero88gt1/

[This message has been edited by sjp777 (edited 06-30-2001).]

I think it's great Archie went out of his way to try to help people here find a cheaper alternative (and one that wouldn't even be purchased from him!)

I would bet $100 EdsB52 has NEVER driven a V8 Fiero. No, he read on some webpage that the V8s grenade due to the ratios of the trannies. Someone sounded like they knew what they were talking about to him, and he bought it.

Either a "V6-only" shop, or the N* guy, would be my guess.

Well EdsB52; don't do a V8, or buy a taller final drive and be done with it.

Archie; what's up with the Cinder blocks? It's been nearly a year sonce I was at your shop, and I have pics of what, 6 cars in the shop...all on lifts? Cinder blocks my a$$.

People are stupid.

Good day.

------------------
Michael ~ triadtuning@hotmail.com
-----------------

Photoshop rendering of planned exterior modifications.

[This message has been edited by TRiAD (edited 06-30-2001).]

I think this is a great idea Archie. I would really like to see this done, because other than a built and turbocharged 2.8, a v-8 conversion is about the only other thing I would like to put in my Fiero (And yes I've read a million other posts on the different engine conversions, so don't try to convince me to do something else. And this is just my opinon, everyone has their own)

As for the waterpump in the wheelwell issue, there is a guy in this area who has an Archie v-8 done and he put a metal covering over it so he doesn't have to worry about anything hitting it.

------------------

quote Originally posted by 00lE: Wow, talk about smacking a gift horse in the mouth with a 2X4! Here I am getting all excited about a great idea (much more power for less money) from a guy that would probably not profit a bit from the venture, and may even loose some future profits if it worked out well. I admire you for attempting to do something like this Archie. I can only hope that the few immature members of the forum do not discourage such a novel approach as this.

Who said Archie wasn't going to profit from this venture? He'll still sell his kit for its reasonable price; just have you scrounge all the extras. Sounds like a good idea to me if that's the conversion you want. The intent of this original post was to entice people who thought a 6 cyl conversion was cheaper and that the V-8 conversion could be done for the same or less. I agree, a carbureted V-8 that's used with many corners cut and improvising made could be accomplished with reasonable quality and durability. According to you 00lE, constructive questioning is immature and ignorance is mature.

Oh $H!T, here we go again. Time to take it to the E-Mail guys.

OUT!

quote Originally posted by EdsB52: Who said Archie wasn't going to profit from this venture? He'll still sell his kit for its reasonable price; just have you scrounge all the extras. Sounds like a good idea to me if that's the conversion you want. The intent of this original post was to entice people who thought a 6 cyl conversion was cheaper and that the V-8 conversion could be done for the same or less. I agree, a carbureted V-8 that's used with many corners cut and improvising made could be accomplished with reasonable quality and durability. According to you 00lE, constructive questioning is immature and ignorance is mature.

I think the general consensus here is that most people that are considering or doing a V8 swap really dont give a damn about a trans with a higher ratio. And whining about it is most definatly "immature". Many of us would like to explore some ingenuity aimed at lowwering the cost of a V8, so if you could please take your trolling elsewhere it would be apprecieated.

Long winded; that exemplifies my contention that you're difficult to deal with. You might say the same about me. The difference is that I'm not asking thousands of people around the world if they'll buy my product. No, I don't know everything about this subject, that's why I'm asking you, the Isuzu transmission guy, and other forum members. I think you don't appreciate me perpetuating what people already know about V-8 conversions, not yours specifically, but any engine conversion that likes to turn slow with gobs of torque, while using the two available transmissions. In the threads you have recently referred to about transmission ratios, which you admitted you purposely avoided, we (forum members and I) had great conversation about options. That's where we encountered the Isuzu place that sells gear sets for $1500, but doesn't warranty them. When I talked to the guy, he made reference to you and had knowledge of you and what you do. He said he gets calls from guys who do, or are thinking of doing the V-8 conversion fairly often. He said they never take it anywhere though, that's why I asked you if you were interested in doing R&D to enhance the drivability of your existing kits. If you want to debate the drivability claim, then we can.

I have a 454 Chevy truck w/4.11 gears. The 16" tires help offset that horrible highway ratio a little, but the engine wants to jump through the hood at 65. That ratio is neccesary though, because it is a 3/4 ton truck. They sell cool overdrives for those transmissions that steepen them up about 22%. If I were to drive my Z-28 at 3,000rpm for long times, the engine gets warmer, is unnecessarily loud, and is consistently in the heart of the torque band which is not comfortable to drive on long trips.

Actually we didn't discuss this topic in our conversation. We talked about the LT-1 kit and LS-1 kit currently in works by you. I took a lot of crap from you in that conversation, which is unlike me to concede, but you did say you just got home from work so I let it go. Now I'm starting to think you're that way all the time. In our conversation I was enthusiastic about the new LS-1 kit coming out. All you had to say was that it wasn't worth the extra money to lose 80lbs and gain 30-50 HP. I thought it was, I added that 80lbs is a big deal in the Fiero's back end, but the extra Hp was nice but probably not needed. You then said the battery could be moved to the front, I replied that it could with whatever engine was transplanted or with the 2.5/2.8. You then scowled, "I'm not gonna sit here and argue with you about this."

"By then, if you carried on like you are here, I'm sure that I would have tired of talking about it very quickly."

Further support of my claim.

And about investing 10's of thousands of dollars. Well, the Isuzu guy said $1500 for the gear set. I imagine $2,000 would take care of everything including disassembly and reassembly. Throw it in your daily driver and see how well it works and how long it lasts. What I didn't like about the Isuzu guy is that they don't warranty their stuff. Actually they have a vendor so it could be messy. But with an established businessman like you, they would probably be more cooperative with the thought of selling 100's more if they work out. Who knows, maybe they would supply the first set for free with the hopes of you marketing an awesome transmission for them.

After the phone call and reading threads in thsi forum, I've concluded that the V-8 swap has three shortcomings and you get entirely pissed if anyone brings them up. The first is the water pump situation. The second is the added weight/weight distribution. The third is; no real desirable transmission ratio available. I'm not beating you up about it, just giving you the chance to remedy these on a public forum or angrily dismiss them and show your contempt to the Fiero community.

ya know, I just realized I'm not even reading EdsB52's posts anymore, skimming over them looking for a post from Archie.

Archie: the Low Buck V-8 swap sounds like a fantastic idea. Would love to see it done. Please stay on topic and track!!

quote Originally posted by Archie: ...What do you think? Would anyone be interested in me building this Virtual SBC V-8 swap online? Archie

Sure. I'll even donate the chassis. It's an '84 4-speeder with no power anything, but is in excellent condition. The frame is extremely clean as it only has 76K miles and was parked for the past several years. Red/gray interior/and free. It will run, but then again, why?

email if interested - Vader@ThirdGen.org

P.S. - Ed is correct. It's almost shameful that the little car is stuck with such a poor transmission selection. A 231 V-6 will run out of breath way to early with the 4.10 final drive - it's a torque engine, not a high RPM ricer engine. Just my 2˘

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"Let the bodies hit the floor!"

[This message has been edited by Vader (edited 06-30-2001).]

Wow this sux! My post was a waste of space and obviously off topic.

Ed we have heard your complaint and understand your point. You have made that clear MANY times now. No one here has a solution for you and your ratio problem. I and I think many others are getting tired of reading good topics with a lot of your posts repeating yourself. Start a new Topic about your "ratio issues" and try and leave it there(isn't there one already?).

Please this is not meant to be a flame, I for one was concerned about gear ratios when doing this swap also. I decided I needed to have a ride in a V8 Fiero and found out for the same reasons the ratios make the car less civil it also makes it more FUN. I am doing this swap for the definite "fun factor" not for cruising across the country at a high rate of speed(80+mph). I want a car that runs low 12's, beats almost anything stoplight to stoplight, has a mean growl, and is within my budget to build. I know that this is entirely possible with a carbed V8 at around $4k for the swap.

Jim

87 GT
87 GT T-TOP V8

quote Originally posted by Vader: Sure. I'll even donate the chassis. It's an '84 4-speeder with no power anything, but is in excellent condition. The frame is extremely clean as it only has 76K miles and was parked for the past several years. Red/gray interior/and free. It will run, but then again, why? email if interested - Vader@ThirdGen.org P.S. - Ed is correct. It's almost shameful that the little car is stuck with such a poor transmission selection. A 231 V-6 will run out of breath way to early with the 4.10 final drive - it's a torque engine, not a high RPM ricer engine. Just my 2˘

Thank you for deciphering my clearly stated message. I have never browbeaten Archie’s stuff. I simply stated 2 critiques of doing an engine mod with a low revving; high torque application and Archie took great offense to it. The critique of the water pump isn't even mine, so there are others out there who critique certain elements of his kits as well. Overall, it sounds like his stuff is really good, but with most anything good, there will be flaws. Some flaws are inherent; others are designed into them through shoddy engineering. The flaws I pointed out are inherited from GM. I think archie responded the way he did for two reasons; first, that's his personality. Second, a GM flaw, even though not the fault of Archie, weighs on his kit. Ya, that 4,10 tranny is good for drags, but nothing else. That same car (2.5 Fiero) with an Isuzu transmission is awesome. I'm not busting Fieros, not Archie’s kits, and not doing a V-8 swap (I might do one myself). I'm merely busting the available GM designed gear ratios, which is common knowledge, but in the act of that I apparently stepped on Archie’s livelihood. I certainly don't want to adversely affect that, but wish someone like Archie with great system knowledge would R&D a worthwhile tranny for LT-1/LS-1's.