I want to do a swap and I'm pretty much sold on the sbc 350 because it sounds fairly cheap and easy to do if you have the right tools and a few things (custom flywheel, adapter plate, mounts etc) am I right or is there a better option as far as power to price? Also, isn't the 350 very cheap to modify and tweak?

Thanks

Its really a matter of personal choice. The sbc 350 is about the easiest to "tinker" with, not to mention there is literaly a never ending supply of relatively cheap parts....be it replacement or upgrade. And if you opt for a carbed version, you dont have the headaches of computers throwing codes and complicated wiring harnesses and what not. Not to mention brutal power (if built that way). The sbc 350 is a torque monster as well.
Or, you could go w/ the Cadillac 4.9, 4.5, or Northstar. All offer nice smooth Cadillac power.
If you choose not to go w/a V8, theres always the Quad 4, the 3.4, or the 3800sc. Like I said, its a matter of choice.

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The Force will be with you, always.

My7Fieros is right.

There IS NO best engine for Fiero. It's a matter of personal choice, and what you want the car to do.

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1988GT T-Tops, 5spd, Loaded

well best can be broken down into sections tho. The BEST because its just straightforeward. the 3.4L

THe best because it doesnt require much work and gives a lot of power for very little the 3800SC Series 2 <lot sof mod potential for cheap also.

The best for all out power and fairly simple to swap thanks to kits like V8 Archie. the SBC.

quote Originally posted by ItzDaFieroGT: well best can be broken down into sections tho. The BEST because its just straightforeward. the 3.4L

Actually no , the 3.4L OHV motor is not the Best swap because it is straightforward. A very high percentage of people who swap in the 3.4 struggle to get it running 100% correctly, and I doubt many of them got it to it's true potential.

Just do a search on 3.4, the proof is everywhere, even in this forum.

[This message has been edited by jelly2m8 (edited 11-03-2002).]

I agree there is no best swap.... It all depends what you want. The 84 does make the 2.8 swap kind of pointless for it is so much work for little gain. Good luck with what ever you decide.

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LS1 in and running :)

http://ls1swap.tripod.com/

quote Originally posted by jelly2m8: My7Fieros is right. There IS NO best engine for Fiero. It's a matter of personal choice, and what you want the car to do.

I haven't gotten to my engine swap phase yet, but I would think that a 350/383 swap would have to be the best swap for the money. There's a ton more upgrade parts for these engines at relatively inexpensive prices. Most complaints about V8's seem to come from the extra weight. I think most people seem to feel that you unbalance the car with this extra weight but my thoughts are that the Fiero is a very light car. The $670,000 Enzo Ferrari weighs 500# more than the Fiero and the Corvette 600#. Stick a 600 hp V8 or as much as the trans and axles will handle and throw a couple hundred pounds of ballast in the front of the car to shift the weight distribution back to neutral, lower the car, upgrade the suspension/brakes and it should go with almost anything in a straight line or a corner. If we want to go 200 mph, we'll have to design some downforce tunnels into the front fascia and seal off the underside with an aluminum/carbon fiber body pan setup.What do you think?

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Notchbacks Rule
84 Coupe(parts car)
85GT(show car)
87SE Gold(project car)
87SE Silver(daily driver)
88Coupe (daily driver)
88Formula (daily driver)

[This message has been edited by Fierobruiser (edited 11-03-2002).]

quote Originally posted by jelly2m8: Actually no , the 3.4L OHV motor is not the Best swap because it is straightforward. A very high percentage of people who swap in the 3.4 struggle to get it running 100% correctly, and I doubt many of them got it to it's true potential. Just do a search on 3.4, the proof is everywhere, even in this forum.

Unless of course you carb the 3.4L

Anyhow, There is no "Best Swap". There are many here who have done many different swaps. Most of the swaps available have been done and those that have done them can provide a multitude of information. Actually, in your particular case, a 2.8, 3.1, or 3.4 would be harder since you have an 84 Fiero. The differences from 84 to the rest of the years in the harness and harness locations make it more difficult. My advice would be to find the "engine of preference" and then do a search on those that have done the swap.

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

I guess I'm leaning toward the sbc 350. I like the idea of gobs of torque and power! Can anyone who has done this give me some 0-60 times or let me know just how fast it does make the car? I know every setup is different, but if it were just a simple mild upgrade to a 350 with a fourbarrel carb, 300 hp max. Would it still be ridiculous? Also, how much wiring is there with a carburated engine? Is it pretty much slap in and go? (a little bit of an understatement)

Thanks

[This message has been edited by 84BANGER (edited 11-04-2002).]

Click on the links and many questions will be answered:
http://www.v8archie.com/faq.htm

Here are step-by-step instructions:
http://www.v8archie.com/v8install.htm

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

quote Originally posted by Fierobruiser: I haven't gotten to my engine swap phase yet, but I would think that a 350/383 swap would have to be the best swap for the money. There's a ton more upgrade parts for these engines at relatively inexpensive prices. Most complaints about V8's seem to come from the extra weight. I think most people seem to feel that you unbalance the car with this extra weight but my thoughts are that the Fiero is a very light car. The $670,000 Enzo Ferrari weighs 500# more than the Fiero and the Corvette 600#. Stick a 600 hp V8 or as much as the trans and axles will handle and throw a couple hundred pounds of ballast in the front of the car to shift the weight distribution back to neutral, lower the car, upgrade the suspension/brakes and it should go with almost anything in a straight line or a corner. If we want to go 200 mph, we'll have to design some downforce tunnels into the front fascia and seal off the underside with an aluminum/carbon fiber body pan setup.What do you think?

Adding ballast to the front was my first thought to solve the problem of added weight to the back end...(and you are exactly right about the ratio of weight from front to back being the issue, NOT the weight of this engine), But then I hit a wall when I looked at the front wheel bearings that were not designed for HP applications.I would hate for one to break at speed in a corner, and adding extra weight would only make it worse. So to do it right you are looking at totally redsigning the front and rear suspension. Or taking Two hundred + pounds off the rear end
Then I looked at the corvette ..and figured out that it would run about the same amount of money to buy and convert a Fiero with a SBC PROPERLY .. AS buying a vette would.. and then I would also end up with the Fiero weighing the same as a vette does, too.
And with the vette, the resale value would stiil stay the same, Whereas with a SBC fiero it will be really hard to get your money back out of it when you sell it..
BUT .. if you go with a 3800SC , a 4.9, or a Northstar the weight would not be an issue ( Read: That the suspension would not have to be changed)..and the swap would be much cheaper to do also, as you wouldn't have to use an expensive kit if you are mechcanically inclined.
I have priced out low mileage engines from a junk yard and they are all under 1500 dollars. The northstar is usually more though, but it is 300 hp stock and will pass CA smog laws if done right..
This is just my opinion here...

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: Yadda, Yadda, Yadda Same old Yadda, Yadda, Yadda But then I hit a wall when I looked at the front wheel bearings that were not designed for HP applications.I would hate for one to break at speed in a corner, and adding extra weight would only make it worse. .

We did some new weight comparisons today between Crazy Daves V-8 car and his similarly equipped V-6 car. The exact weight gain for the V-8 was like 110 pounds. (Dave will be posting the exact numbers later today)

On his car we moved the ~40 pound batter to the front compartment so the weight distribution would be nearly stock.

So, if you are saying that the additional weight would be the cause of other failures then I'd suggest that all the Stock Fiero owners better not carry any fat chicks around.

On another note...... Since you are such an expert on all things Fiero, why don't you tell people just who you really are? That way we can give the credit for knowing everything to the proper person.

I'm Archie

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Yes! the 350 sbc is the BEST swap
always go for the most cubes!
anything you can do to V6 you can do to a V8 and get more!
nothing drops jaws like a thumping V8 in a tiny little Fiero
tell them its a supercharged v6, and you get "cool"
tell them its a v8 350, and you get "WOW!"
tell them its DOHC 3.4, and you get "huh?" (even tho this is my personal favorite...)

My opinion is go v-8. Take the car to a show, pop the trunk lid and if there's not 3 people standing there somethings wrong. Watch them walk by, they first glance then stop in there tracks to take a second look. The hardest part is telling the truth, that's it a "Archie Kit" not something I figured out myself. Anyhow to each his own. Thanks Gary

I always cringe when i see this topic

Please use the "search" feature to find out exactly the pro's and con's of each motor in it's own thread...

For instance...I love large cubic inch engines and some like smaller ones...and to match those people up on a a single thread is a LARGE conflic on interest...

I'd say that it's up to you on what you'd like

I chose the 4.9 because it was the least expensive for me...

Search on the from each of the folloing engines and make your own decisions please...before someone gets banned
*2.2 (i think...QUAD 4)
2.5
2.8
3.1
*3.4 TDC
*3800 (series I and II...SC and NOT SC)
4.1
*4.5 (northstar)
*4.6
*4.9
*any SBC

The main ones are marked w/ a "*"

They're all great and i'd love to have a fiero w/ each of them in...but i'm not bill gates

Good Luck!

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Steven Rossi
2M4 Cadero Converted GT

If you are hooked on horsepower hysteria, the SBC is *the* swap, but I think the 3.4L DOHC is the *best* swap for what the car it. It's not a dragster.

After that, the 3800SC, then 4.9L, then 3.4L OHV and then the Turbo Intercooled Sprint.

[This message has been edited by TK (edited 11-04-2002).]

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: Adding ballast to the front was my first thought to solve the problem of added weight to the back end...(and you are exactly right about the ratio of weight from front to back being the issue, NOT the weight of this engine), But then I hit a wall when I looked at the front wheel bearings that were not designed for HP applications.I would hate for one to break at speed in a corner, and adding extra weight would only make it worse. So to do it right you are looking at totally redsigning the front and rear suspension. Or taking Two hundred + pounds off the rear end Then I looked at the corvette ..and figured out that it would run about the same amount of money to buy and convert a Fiero with a SBC PROPERLY .. AS buying a vette would.. and then I would also end up with the Fiero weighing the same as a vette does, too. And with the vette, the resale value would stiil stay the same, Whereas with a SBC fiero it will be really hard to get your money back out of it when you sell it.. BUT .. if you go with a 3800SC , a 4.9, or a Northstar the weight would not be an issue ( Read: That the suspension would not have to be changed)..and the swap would be much cheaper to do also, as you wouldn't have to use an expensive kit if you are mechcanically inclined. I have priced out low mileage engines from a junk yard and they are all under 1500 dollars. The northstar is usually more though, but it is 300 hp stock and will pass CA smog laws if done right.. This is just my opinion here...

When we weighed our 87 C4 it came in at 3290 with a full tank. Even though I am skeptical of a SBC swap and the weight gains , i don't think the swap adds over 150Lbs with an iron head motor. I have weighed my 86 GT @ 2720 if my memory serves me. thats a 570 Lbs difference between the vette and a stock 2.8 Fiero. So there is no way a V8 fiero is nearly the same weight as a vette , not by a long shot. I don't think vettes have been under 3000Lbs in a LONG time!

I understand you new here so I won't flame you, but ballast to the front of a Fiero is a No No , or as i call it , how to make your car handle like a dump truck. If you want the dumptruck characteristics in a fiero to really shine through , bolt some flywheels to the spare tire. About 3 years ago i bolted some corvair flywheels to my spare in a cheap attempt to get the understeer out. It just made it worse.

it's not the weight gain that is a concern in a v8 Fiero. It's the inertia generated by the engine itself, add to that the fact that the car is a short wheel base and all you have is a car thats a bit more of a handful to drive , but in capale hands a compitent driver.

I used to be one of the people that cried foul when people brought up weight gains of various engines..and even Im geting tired of the same old same old

JM

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Jonathan McCreery

SAVE THE SHAUN!

Don't do a SBC, they handle like sh$t!!!

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Click to Listen!

hi all..This whole weight thing is getting really old..and I can see why it will never be resolved.. we have people who weigh one car..then a totally different car..then subtract stuff..add a weight of an auto transaxle and then smirk that they are right.. but when someone suggests the right way to do it..by renting some scales that were designed for just that and weighing all four corners.. of the same car before the swap..and then after the swap. He gets ridiculed .

Oh Well..Back to my thoughts from the earlier post in this thread..

The weight of a fiero GT ........... 2800 lbs
The added weight of a cast iron SBC.. 225 lbs
the added weight of handling mods......50 lbs
The added weight of larger brakes ect..75 lbs
total weight 3150 lbs

The weight of an 86 vette 3250 lbs..
..100 lbs is close enough in my book, I would take the vette.

As to the ballast issue, I never got farther than the wheel bearings before I nixed that idea..and started thinking about how to remove weight from the rear.. the fiero is already a rear heavy car..and I was thinking about what the extra weight of a SBC was going to do to handling issues.. The answer is in the search function and it has been covered very well by outstanding members of this forum.
As to CA Kid.. If I remember right your car was built by pro's that dialed that car in, ..and then you bought after they were through with it it.. What did you pay for the car??

Now back to the weight issue.. I am not going to address this issue ever again ..except to say that some day, someone will do a swap and weigh things as they go..something that Archie should have ( in my opinion )done long long ago, as he IS the formost expert on this swap... I accept Daves figures as being true.. and wish everyone peace..

OR you can be wierd like me and look at swaps that drop weight....but have never been done before. eeeep

Ive decided to swap in an engire MR2 Turbo D/T into my car.

I just ordered the Halfcut today (more like 2/3 cut because all of the interior is there) Its a 1998 JDM (with LSD)MR2 Turbo 5spd with a whole 23,000km on it. This swap wnt be easy but not too difficult. im going to borrow a lot of thigns from the MR2 including the shifter assembly.
After i do this im goign to attempt to do my KLZE 5spd idea. which is also a weight loss. I have an affinity for Import 6cyl so i got to try it at least once.

[This message has been edited by ItzDaFieroGT (edited 11-05-2002).]

75lbs to go from what... 9" solid to 11.25" vented/crossdrilled?? ok buddy, if you say so.

same goes for the suspension... since when is swapping som konis, drop spindles, lowering springs, poly bushings, or any combination of the above, going to add 50lbs??? what are they made of, lead?

I don't know a lot about SBCs, but I don't see how they'd be 225lbs heavier than a 2.8 V6.... they're not THAT much bigger!

Anyways, back on topic... a turbo 3.4 DOHC is my favorite engine for a Fiero.. I'd also like to swap a 4cyl Saturn engine into a coupe.. a lot of people love the 350 SBC, but it's not for me.

the "best" engine swap for you, is whatever engine is best suited for what you want it to do, what fits in your budget, and what you can handle, if doing the work yourself..

I've driven quite a few 2.8s, my own 2.5, as well as a friend's Caddy 4.9 V8.. all have their own pros and cons, of those 3, the 4.9 is the closest one to a 350.. and while it was AMAZING... I prefer a smaller displacement DOHC engine. plus, I love the sound of a 3.4!!

To answer the question... is the 350 the best swap? for some, yes. for others, no.

there's some great info here on most of the common swaps.. read up on them and see what you think. Either way, good luck with your engine project!

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steve@digitalfusion.on.ca

The way I see it! If you want a 350 or any V8 then get a muscle car. A Fiero is more sports car and sticking a V8 with a big holley on there just doesn't sound right in a fiero. Now a nice 3.4 DOHC or even a Q4 is the best bet. Then it does sound more like a sports car rather then a muscle car. But each to their own. Go with the 3.4 DOHC and I'll look twice at your car. Good luck!

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: hi all..This whole weight thing is getting really old....

You're right there...... Every since you joined this Forum under that screen name, you've been bashing away on V-8's and weight. Anyone can go back and search your posts, under this screen name and find that without V-8 bashing, you'd have nothing to say.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: but when someone suggests the right way to do it..by renting some scales that were designed for just that and weighing all four corners.. of the same car before the swap..and then after the swap. He gets ridiculed . ..

He didn't get ridiculed at all. I Like anyone who's into Rallying. I just asked to borrow his scales. And he knows I'm good for my word on returning them and he'll most likely loan them to me, or help me borrow a set in the Chicago area.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: ..except to say that some day, someone will do a swap and weigh things as they go..something that Archie should have ( in my opinion )done long long ago, as he IS the formost expert on this swap.....

I have been weighing Before and After V-8 swaps for the last 16 years. Back in the late 80's my buddie was into SCCA road racing & I even weighed a B&A on his 4 corner scales. From time to time I've reported on weight here and in my web site. But idiots like you just keep ignoring the reports because they don't agree with the drum you want to beat.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: Now back to the weight issue.. I am not going to address this issue ever again

GOOD!!!!!! Now you can change your Screen name again and start your bashing all over again.

Hey, Mr. Big Shot, why don't you tell us your real name on the way out the door?????

Archie

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: The weight of a fiero GT ........... 2800 lbs The added weight of a cast iron SBC.. 225 lbs the added weight of handling mods......50 lbs The added weight of larger brakes ect..75 lbs total weight 3150 lbs ..

handling Mods? how the heck do you get 50Lbs? Coilovers use Aluminum sleeves and smaller dia springs...they are lighter than stock. Koni's are lighter than stock Struts. The only weight increase I could possibly see would be solid mount cradle bushings being perhaps 2Lbs more than stock, and a rear bar. So perhaps 10Lbs!!

I have 11.25" brakes , a common swap for V8 owners , archie offers the same kit. It didn't add 75Lbs!! around 17Lbs actually. and the difference in braking over the stock system was worth it ten fold.

Your really shooting down any credibility you may have .

time for a new screen name??

JM

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Jonathan McCreery

SAVE THE SHAUN!

As far as a BEST swap, I'm baised.

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Mike

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: handling Mods? how the heck do you get 50Lbs? Coilovers use Aluminum sleeves and smaller dia springs...they are lighter than stock. Koni's are lighter than stock Struts. The only weight increase I could possibly see would be solid mount cradle bushings being perhaps 2Lbs more than stock, and a rear bar. So perhaps 10Lbs!! I have 11.25" brakes , a common swap for V8 owners , archie offers the same kit. It didn't add 75Lbs!! around 17Lbs actually. and the difference in braking over the stock system was worth it ten fold. Your really shooting down any credibility you may have . time for a new screen name?? JM

As usual in your haste to argue you missed the point..
1)This point is the most important part.The cost of everything vs buying a car that was set up "right" from the factory in all things..starting with smog issues, computer tuning, brakes, weight distribution.. and going all the way to handling. With the 'vette' this was already done by factory engineers for the SBC..

2) Handling mods = rear sway bar,cradle reinforcing parts, body mods for air circulation, body support bracing, engine torque bracing, larger diameter axles, HP CV joints, And minor weight jacking/ballast to balance out the weght distribution.
3) Brakes /ect = addding inexpensive (grand am/ barretta swap) vented rotors and metal calipers (goes back to cost issues in #1 ..paying two grand for light weight racing brakes is not needed for the street)adapting Fbody hubs and larger bearings as pontiac did for the 84 indy car..(ever wonder why they did that for only a COUPLE of miles at speed on a smooth track..??)

Now as to paranoid Archie...I am not someone from your past..Who I really am is none of your business. I am not ever going to "sell" something to the members of this forum and as long as I am part of this Forum I will remain as "SanBerDueFiero" and that is who you will know me as, because as far as you all are concerned ..this is my name Cliff could terminate my participation here if I was someone else posing under a new screenname, because in order to register you have to provide information that he has the right to verify..
And as to my past postings ..This swap was one that I was going to do, until I changed my mind, by asking the hard questions.. Questions that you in your paranoia took as "bashing you" I was/ and still am after real info..not a fuzzy interpretation of facts..

Now listen really close here "Paranoid Archie" ...If you want to settle this controversy for once and for all.. On your next swap.. as you are paid well for excellent workmanship, and you are selling this as a "kit", (I think that you can afford it.. If you can't then I would be happy to contribute to the "weight the Fiero swap fund" as I want to know the real info too..and you can also write it off on your taxes ) Rent the scales..and weigh the 4 corners before and then after without adding or subtracting anything that doesn't have to do with the swap. Going to "grain scales" is so accurate... .. and then document and publish this info on your web site and the truth in advertising laws will apply..

Now to the original question 'Is the cast Iron SBC the best motor for a swap.. My answer is ...to get all the info that you can..them make up your own mind and do what is best for your situation ... as there is no best motor for the Fiero except what the factory put in this car..everthing else is a compromise and will take away from other parts in order to make the issues that you are wanting to improve better.

They (the factory) spend a ton of money before they changed anything on this car. The 88 suspension design cost in the millions to engineer (and some of you think that you can make it better in your back yard...) I am not bashing the off road people as they know what they are doing and have the timeslips to prove or disprove what they change.. I am (as always) talking about street applications only)
till next time...SanBerDueFiero

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: Now back to the weight issue.. I am not going to address this issue ever again

Thank GOD! It's about time someone turned off that broken record! Not that I really believe you're going to shut up. But it's a nice thought.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero:

More from San (I'll hide behind my keyboard" BerdudFiero

Always a touchy subject here. I prefer the 3.4TDC/DOHC engine myself. Its a high tech (well for GM at the time) hi rev motor and I think (that I as in me) its a perfect match for the fiero. You know sporty motor for a sporty car. Perfect for AutoX or road course. Got 2 here now and putting one into my daily driver fiero.

The 3.8SC properly set up and installed turns a fiero into a road rocket. This motor will make your fiero a burn out/drag race car that will keep you grining from ear to ear. Stock 3.8's auto trans will work better than ANY fiero trans.

Quad 4 think light coupe gutted to the max then drop in the high out put Quad 4. STUPID FAST AWSOME autoX car. BAR NONE..its all about HP to weight with this set up.

Caddy 4.1-9 almost no weight gain over stock v6. Gobs of low RPM torque. burn out contest winner type car. Wicked fun. NO HP but with 300ftlbs who needs it? Contact RockCrawl or Ed Parks for more info. I have heard of some problems with core shift and head threads with these motors. I am starting to swap a 4.9 into a gutted 88 coupe.

Northstar...what to say. If you can afford it, do it. Period. I have been in a Northstar fiero....it scared me. Oh, use the caddy auto trans.

SBC. Hmmm now, if you see my sig, I install these into eveything. Id put one on my riding lawn mower if I had one just for fun. I have built several SBC fieros. Would I own one? I doubt it. Only the LS1 looks worth doing in my eyes. Biggest problem is small clutch size, alot of custom parts and all the little odds and ends. If some custom part breaks (remember there are alot of them in this swap) you are at the mercy of who ever you bought you kit from to get your parts. Find someone that owns one and see if they will really be honest about the swap, cost, pros and cons.

Now remember, I love SBC v8's. Just not in Fieros. But then I am sick and build turbo 2.5 iron dukes too. So rememeber I am not bashing anyone or what engine they choose. If you feel the need to bash me then you must really really down deep think you have the wrong engine in your car and just cant bring yourself to admit it.

Steven

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88 Fiero coupe 2.5 5 speed, Custom IHI RHB6 turbo equipped, gutted and track abused
87 Fiero GT 14.9/ 89mph CSP car
87 Mazda RX-7 SBC v8 5.0L/700R4 ---FOR SALE
84 Fiero 2M4 T-top, Turbocharged and tons of extras!
87 Conquest TSi 406 SBC V8!
93 Lumina Z34 organ donor :)

Double post

[This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 11-05-2002).]