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AC troubleshooting help by buddycraigg
Started on: 04-21-2003 09:58 PM
Replies: 12
Last post by: StuGood on 05-11-2003 11:45 AM
buddycraigg
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Report this Post04-21-2003 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for buddycraiggSend a Private Message to buddycraiggDirect Link to This Post
Need AC help.

I must admit that AC work is my weakest field.

On a 1984 coupe 2.5 auto

Replaced filter dryer.
Add 8oz of ester oil.
Sucked down to 30 inches of mercury.
Held for 5 minutes without losing any vacuum.
Charged with 2 pounds of 134.

Pressure switch on filter dryer is closed.

Turn on MAX and fan comes on and the idle kicks up.

Compressor clutch does not engage.

Where do I start troubleshooting from here?

------------------
Buddy *there are two "G"s in my name*
1.94/1.50 iron heads +0.030, 0.1popup, geardrive, edelbrock homeowner kit, 5spd jap tranny, N2O
car doesn't crank?
got a broken stud?
car wont start coming soon
KCFOG
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rroberts
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Report this Post04-21-2003 10:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rrobertsSend a Private Message to rrobertsDirect Link to This Post
I would start by checking to see if you have power at the clutch. I like to start at the end and go backwards. First knowing that you don't have a blown fuse or bad relay. you can rull out the dash switch because of eng rpm. The low pressure switch keeps the clutch relay energized. Did this work before the change to 134a? Does the eng fan come on?
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jstricker
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Report this Post04-22-2003 12:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerDirect Link to This Post
When you're sitting in the car with the engine off, and you turn on the key and then the a/c, do you hear the clutch kick in? You should hear it click. (By the sound of your post, you know what that should sound like)

Do you have gauges to see what your pressures are resting? Should be something around 60 pounds on both sides, but that's temperature dependent.

If it makes you feel better, we charged the Finale's a/c last saturday. We hadn't done anything with it since we had the cradle down at Christmas. Got it sucked down again, put in about 16 oz of 134, jumpered the low pressure cycling switch, nothing happened.

Checked the wires at the relay, getting a hot signal there, hot to relay as well. Relay wouldn't come on. Took a relay off a parts car, same thing. Got mad, drank a beer, took a nap. Came back and tried it again, kicked in like nothing was wrong. Finished charging the system and it's worked perfect ever since. Go figger. I'm betting it was the beer.

John Stricker

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buddycraigg
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Report this Post04-22-2003 02:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for buddycraiggSend a Private Message to buddycraiggDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rroberts:

I would start by checking to see if you have power at the clutch. I like to start at the end and go backwards. First knowing that you don't have a blown fuse or bad relay. you can rull out the dash switch because of eng rpm. The low pressure switch keeps the clutch relay energized. Did this work before the change to 134a? Does the eng fan come on?

We (KCFOG) do not know if it worked before.

I tested with a pos/neg test light and didnot get a ground or a 12+vdc signal at either connection on the clutch.

The only fuse that I see labeled for AC is “Heater/AC” 20A and is good.

I’m thinking relay or one of the two sensors in the back of the compressor, but since I don’t know what they do, I can’t test them.


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jstricker
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Report this Post04-22-2003 11:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jstrickerSend a Private Message to jstrickerDirect Link to This Post
Buddy,

The two switches on the back are pressure switches and they both close to ground. The High Pressure cut-off switch is normally closed and when pressures exceed a certain level (over 400 psi sticks in my mind), the circuit will open and cause the compressor to not kick in. The Low Pressure cut-off switch is just the opposite, if a certain, minimum pressure isn't there then it will be open. It closes under some pressure allowing the compressor to run.

To test them, if you have a can or so of freon in the system, a DVOM should read a closed circuit between the switch contact and a good ground.

You often have to jump the pressure cycling switch on the accumulator to charge the sytem. Take the connector off and either make you a short jumper wire or use something around the shop to jump the two terminals in the connector. With the key on and the a/c set to max, you should have one terminal hot and jumping the two terminals sends power back to the relay.

With the key on and a/c set to on, if you have a hot wire at that connector you don't need to look at the fuse or a/c control head, that part of your system is working.

If everything is hooked up properly, one of the two contacts on the compressor clutch should show a ground. The ground terminal on the connector goes directly to the High Pressure cut-out switch and, with just a can or so of freon in the system, the switch should be closed to ground all the time. The only time that switch is supposed to be open is if you have an extremely high pressure in the system which it doesn't sound possible for you to have right now. Now this part is up to you, but before I'd change the high pressure cut-out switch I'd take that wire, put a ring terminal on it, and ground it. My reasoning here is that if pressure does get that high, the belt will slip long before it can cause any damage to your system and that's also been my experience in the past as well.

On the low pressure switch on the compressor, for testing purposes you can also ground that. I don't recommend disabling that switch though, as it's the protection from running your compressor with no freon in it if you should develop a leak. I have seen people that have disabled it, though, and let the pressure cycling switch handle that job. That works, but it's not very fail-safe and if you run your compressor for any length of time with no refrigerant you WILL be buying a new compressor.

On the relay at the firewall, you should have four pins that are used on the connector. One group of three will be filled and the other group of two will use just one connector. The group of two may have two or more wires going to that connector, that should be hot all the time. If it is, you can rule that out as a cause. On the group of three connectors, the middle one is the connector that goes to the clutch. If you jumper that with the hot wire, you should hear your clutch engage if all your wiring is intact.

If your switches on the compressor check out, you have hot wires at the pressure cycling switch and the relay, and you can make the compressor clutch "click" from the relay connector, that's good news because your wiring is intact and about the only thing it can be is the relay on the firewall.

Good luck, read my earlier post as I went through the same thing you are last week.

John Stricker


 
quote
Originally posted by buddycraigg:

We (KCFOG) do not know if it worked before.

I tested with a pos/neg test light and didnot get a ground or a 12+vdc signal at either connection on the clutch.

The only fuse that I see labeled for AC is “Heater/AC” 20A and is good.

I’m thinking relay or one of the two sensors in the back of the compressor, but since I don’t know what they do, I can’t test them.

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buddycraigg
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Report this Post04-22-2003 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for buddycraiggSend a Private Message to buddycraiggDirect Link to This Post
thanks for the input, we wont play with it saturday (our project car work day) cause we'll be in st louis. and we just picked up another project car today suppose to be a clean 86 GT

------------------
Buddy *there are two "G"s in my name*
1.94/1.50 iron heads +0.030, 0.1popup, geardrive, edelbrock homeowner kit, 5spd jap tranny, N2O
car doesn't crank?
got a broken stud?
car wont start coming soon
KCFOG
ME

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Brian Lamberts
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Report this Post05-05-2003 01:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Brian LambertsSend a Private Message to Brian LambertsDirect Link to This Post
How long did you hold the vacuum? 30 minutes on the pump should be the minimum.

Holding vacuum for 5 minutes before putting in the gas is kinda pushing it. You should let it sit on the manifold with valves closed for at least a few hours. Check to see if your system is still charged?

Did you get this problem resolved?

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buddycraigg
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Report this Post05-05-2003 08:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for buddycraiggSend a Private Message to buddycraiggDirect Link to This Post
This is our groups project car. We are going to sell it outright after it’s finished to try to recoup some of the money invested in the car we raffled off for the Dream Factory.

The Saturday after I charged the system was the st louis show, and then two days ago I had to work one last Saturday to move the Hyundai parts from my building over to the brand new 4 million dollar dealership that opened on 5/1.

And since we only get together on Saturdays to work on it I don’t know how much was accomplished.

But I found lots of other things for them to work on when I had it on a lift. So I bet they didn’t even touch the AC.

Anyone else got a suggestion?
Or a schematic? Unlike AC, hard wire electrical is one of my strong points

I’ll print out this thread and take it with me next week.

Thanks.

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buddycraigg
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Report this Post05-05-2003 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for buddycraiggSend a Private Message to buddycraiggDirect Link to This Post

buddycraigg

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Member since Jul 2002
 
quote
Originally posted by Brian Lamberts:

How long did you hold the vacuum? 30 minutes on the pump should be the minimum.

Holding vacuum for 5 minutes before putting in the gas is kinda pushing it. You should let it sit on the manifold with valves closed for at least a few hours. Check to see if your system is still charged?

Did you get this problem resolved?

to be honest i didn't have the time. more than 5 less than 10.
134's cheap.

the compressor is unknown,
the clutch is unknown.
i didn't spend too much time with it since i was suppose to be "working".

i know i did not get power to the clutch so my first guess is one of the pressure switches on the clutch.

the presssure switch on the dryer did close, and there was power to it

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buddycraigg
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Report this Post05-10-2003 10:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for buddycraiggSend a Private Message to buddycraiggDirect Link to This Post
This is what happened today on the club project car.

Turn on the key
AC max
Just to rule it out I jumped the pressure switch on the dryer

***************
While looking at the relay connector so the connectors look like this
|
-- -- --
or

E
A B C

The vertical connector on the left is hot with the key in the “ON” position. [E]

The left horizontal connector is Hot if the dryer pressure switch is closed. [A]

The center horizontal connector goes to the positive side of the compressor clutch [B]

The right Horizontal connector is grounded through the computer [C]
**************

We had power to the relay in two places, on the vertical connector at the top left[E]. And the first horizontal connector (bottom left) [A]

But no ground to energize the relay. that’s when I figured out that the computer grounds the relay.

I use a jumper wire from [E] to [B]

I test and verify that there is power at the compressor clutch.

I then get under the car disconnect and ground the high pressure cut out plug.

The clutch engages.

We start the car for a moment with the clutch engaged and shut it back off.

We plug the dryer pressure switch back in and start the car, the compressor clutch is still engaged.

We plug the relay back in and start the car, the clutch is still engaged.

I plug in the low pressure cut out switch on the back of the compressor and start the car, the clutch is still engaged.

I notice the pin sticking out of the high pressure cut out switch is kinda slanted as if it was bumped and bent over.

I plug in the high pressure cut out switch, and am careful to make sure the connector goes on the angled pin on the switch.

Start the car and the compressor clutch is still engaged.

It is now working normal and nothing has changed.

Any ideas?


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buddycraigg
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Report this Post05-10-2003 10:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for buddycraiggSend a Private Message to buddycraiggDirect Link to This Post

buddycraigg

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and thanks jstrickner for the help
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topcat
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Report this Post05-11-2003 11:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for topcatSend a Private Message to topcatDirect Link to This Post
Well, it looks like we had identical problems. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/035731.html

I spent most of yesterday morning and into the afternoon chasing wires, relays and grounds. This morning, I grounded the high pressure cutoff switch and the results were identical to your results. Right down to the bent pin on the compressor. When I hooked everything up, the clutch kicked in and nice cool air started eminating from the vents.

I have a theory... maybe there was some sort of internal vapor lock inside the compressor that caused the high pressure switch to activate. By bypassing the switch and forcing the compressor to at least turn over, it relieved the pressure and let the switch close to ground. I have no way of verifying it without a schematic of the compressor internals, but it sounds good to me.

Anyway, thanks for the help.

[This message has been edited by topcat (edited 05-11-2003).]

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StuGood
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Report this Post05-11-2003 11:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for StuGoodSend a Private Message to StuGoodDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by buddycraigg:and thanks jstrickner for the help

...*jstricker, there are zero "N's" in my name* Sorry, buddycraigg, just couldn't resist . Good luck, hope everything's cool with you, and soon !

-*StuGood, there are at leaStu bad puns in every post*

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