What parts would you use on an 84 SE to make the car handle like a sports car, for road course/daily driving? Since I can't get much power out of the duke, and money for an SD4 is at least a few YEARS off...

I think Cali Kid has the best set-up suspension, but isn't his car an 88? And correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't add the 88 suspension parts to an earlier car, right?

Also if you know where to get said parts and how much they cost, that would help

I've upgraded my '87 SE suspension with KYB dampers, Eibach springs, and Prothane bushings. I also installed an Addco rear sway bar, and replaced the front sway bar bushings/links with urethane. I'm very pleased with the results.

After break-in, the Eibach springs seem to be stiffer than stock, but not enough to make daily driving uncomfortable. The KYB dampers seem to be just firm enough to keep the stiffer springs from making the car too "bouncy". Although, the front does seem to be a little more bouncy than the rear. If the front shocks were just a little stiffer, I think it would be perfect. The sway bars (with their urethane bushings) make the car feel nimble during cornering, with minimal body sway.

If ride comfort is a high priority, you may not want to replace your control arm bushings with urethane. While the urethane bushings help to make the suspension more precise, they also transmit more road noise/vibration to the chassis.

With the new suspension components, I'm getting the feeling that my Iron Duke doesn't have enough power to push the suspension to its limits anymore. If I build up speed and throw it into a turn, I can get the tires to complain. But if I enter the turn at a conservative speed and attempt to accelerate until the tires start to sing, it takes alot of throttle and a bit of time.

Oh, and the prices:

• KYB Dampers (full set) -- $175.66 + shipping @ Summit
  
• Eibach Springs (full set) -- $249 + shipping @ Fiero Store
  
• Prothane Bushings (front/rear control arms and front sway bar) -- $76.99 + shipping @ Summit

Also, keep in mind that there are other incidental costs that will pop up. For example, I found that 3 of my front ball joints and both front inner tie rods were bad. I also had to cut some of the front lower control arms bolts to get the control arms out, which meant buying replacement bolts. Same goes for the strut mounting bolts. And my upper strut plates were rusted out. I also had to buy some tools. I spent well over $250 on these parts and tools.

Also keep in mind that the 86GT had a different front cross member and appearantly a different sway bar. Upgrading these may help to stiffen things up a bit. There is a lot of opinions as to what will make the fiero handle best. I guess it depends on your driving style rather than trying to determine one universal 'set' of parts to select.

So far so good! +'s all around + for any more good info too!

Anyone ever got teh Fierostore's Koni suspension kit (at a WHOPPING $1050)? Is there somewhere else you can get the parts cheaper, or individually?

"With the new suspension components, I'm getting the feeling that my Iron Duke doesn't have enough power to push the suspension to its limits anymore. If I build up speed and throw it into a turn, I can get the tires to complain. But if I enter the turn at a conservative speed and attempt to accelerate until the tires start to sing, it takes alot of throttle and a bit of time"

That's about what I'm shooting for.

I have an 87 GT, and have found my susp upgrades to work very effectively. Car definately handles like a sportscar now.

Some SCCA Solo 2 race video

I got poly from Summit, the Total Kit (PN : PTP-7-2034) for $75. Got my poly cradle bushings (PN : PTP-7-502) from there too. adjustable Koni shocks I bought from Tirerack if I recall correctly - Koni part # 8741-1063 for rears. Missing my info for front shocks. Anyhoo, it adds up to A LOT! But the handling is real nice now.

Info from my files:

Front Shocks Koni : $100 ea
You'll need a 24 MM socket
cradle mounts PTP-7-502 $35
Rear Shocks $160 ea KONI 8741-1063
Eibach SPRINGS - around $250
Rear strut bolt kit : Monroe AK-30 $20 per side
Strut Boot Kit FieroStore $30
Strut plate FieroStore $60
Spring Compressor for McPherson Strut $50

------------------

Black '87 GT Auto - Daily Driver & Autocrosser
Eibach springs, Koni shocks, Kosei K1s, Kumho Ecsta V700s, poly bushings, rear swaybar, MSD ignition, shift-kit, custom intake scoop

Koni is top of the line, but you don't want to spend that kind of money... unless you're going to see a track often. The most your money can buy will be KYB or Monroe. I suggest a softer spring (like 275#s) and urethane everything. A good set of springs and struts, I'm told, can help the rear of your car, but HMS makes very nice mods for the 84-87 suspension (i.e. the bumpsteer kit).

http://www.heldmotorsports.com/suspen.htm

I recommend you consider these options carefully, 'cause you can waste a lot of money... but that's totally subjective

I fully intend on purchasing suspension equipment i have no need for myself, only 'cause it sounds cool.

[This message has been edited by Jeremiah (edited 06-03-2004).]

I disagree with just about every statement you've made.

I would buy konis before anything that you have suggested.

quote Originally posted by Jeremiah: Koni is top of the line, but you don't want to spend that kind of money... unless you're going to see a track often. The most your money can buy will be KYB or Monroe. I suggest a softer spring and urethane everything. A good set of springs and struts, I'm told, can help the rear of your car, but HMS makes very nice mods for the 84-87 suspension (i.e. the bumpsteer kit). http://www.heldmotorsports.com/suspen.htm I recommend you consider these options carefully, 'cause you can waste a lot of money... but that's totally subjective I fully intend on purchasing suspension equipment i have no need for myself, only 'cause it sounds cool.

Howard:

Do you have a rear sway bar?

The statement you quoted was in regards to ride quality when driving over bumps and stuff, not cornering. My car does exhibit a slight tendency for oversteer in the turns. Once I get the alignment and tires dialed-in, I hope to make the handling more neutral.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 06-01-2004).]

RWD:
as an idea, first make absolutely sure that everything you have is in top working order (I'm guessing it is like most peep's stuff and is a couple or more years old with the associated wear)
Make sure that all balljoints and shocks and normal wear items are in top shape. Consider the poly if you are willing to take the side effects. Maybe poly on the cradle too, or aluminum, with the same condition. If you control a bit of movement of the entire engine you will make handling more stable. None of that stuff will break the bank but will prob give a real improvement in handling. Consider cutting your springs to lower the car a bit; the lower the better (for handling) within the limits of ground clearance you need. Then consider another issue: tires. I have been floored by the difference that REALLY good tires make - esp when you just took off some regular ones. But to take advantage of them, the rest of the 'system' has got to be in good shape. If the alignment is off or your balljoints are falling out or the steering rack is worn out etc then they will not be able to do it for you. And if you want to have good handling you likely are going to go to tires at some point anyway.
so........ some thoughts and cheapo ideas for you.

Well, the topic is "Ultimate Handling", not "decent handling on a mdeium budget" which is why I suggested the items that I did, even though they are expensive. If you want to return your car to stock or a bit better than stock, the kybs will suffice. Its a personal decision based on long term goals, and whether you are willing to sacrifice comfort in daily driving for "Utlimate handling"... Pot holes jar my car like crazy, but I live with it....

Spy; yup; you're right......... what is the budget on this thread? Any?

quote Originally posted by fiero308: RWD: as an idea, first make absolutely sure that everything you have is in top working order (I'm guessing it is like most peep's stuff and is a couple or more years old with the associated wear)

Most of the parts on the car are original, and/or worn out. Since it's time to replace them, and I can't do much with the engine, I'd like to get the car to handle and brake well. My main overall goal for the car is to be able to out-handle a first gen MR2, and if possible, any other stock pre 1990 'budget sports car' (1st gen MR2, 3rd gen and older Supra, AE86 Corolla, 2nd gen RX-7, 200SX and 240SX, etc.).

As for tires, I've had REALLY good luck with the Firestone Firehawk Indy 500's on another car, and those are what I'd like to get for the Fiero. The tires on the car now are only a year old and not too worn yet, so I'm oing to live with them for a while. Anyone ever heard of Barum Brillantis tires? Seem OK so far, but I haven't tried driving the car too hard yet because of the worn suspension, and not knowing exactly what these tires were engineered for.

quote Originally posted by Jeremiah: The most your money can buy will be KYB or Monroe.

what about the Gabriel shocks and struts? i have those got the whole set for $140 and the car handles great. although i dont exactly have a before and after since after 127k miles i still had the factory oil filled stuff in there.

You can also look into poly or aluminum cradle bushings. They'll help keep the cradle (and in turn, the rear suspension) a lot more stable than with the factory rubber bushings.

Yeah, I forgot those. I've never ridden in a car with them, but I hear they're great. There are bunches, I didn't mean to make the list all inclusive.

quote Originally posted by derangedsheep: what about the Gabriel shocks and struts? i have those got the whole set for $140 and the car handles great. although i dont exactly have a before and after since after 127k miles i still had the factory oil filled stuff in there.

I have all poly bushings front, rear, cradle, engine/trans mounts, and for the sway bar.
Eibach springs
KYB shocks and struts
larger sway bar in the front.

I can scream around Blackhawk Farms road course and hit most highway exit ramps in excess of 75mph. (92mph being the fastest so far ) I've rode in a car that had the KONI's and it was a very stiff ride. Almost too stiff for the street. (bumps, seams and potholes of daily streets)
If you are serious and racing every weekend, Buy a kidney belt and get the KONI's (you'll need the belt for the streets)
If it's a race on a road course once in a while (like me) go with the KYB's.

------------------

Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

He said Ultimate Handling but he asks for suggestions... I wouldn’t' buy Koni, not because they aren't great but because what am I going to have? An 84-87 with really good shocks and struts? Is that worth dropping close to 600 bucks after tax on? It's a highly personal call but as for me, KYB, Monroe and Gabriel are good to go.

You know, not that there aren't any applications for an 84-87 with Koni shocks... a lot of people are very defensive about this suspension geometry for some reason so I'll just leave it at that. It's a good set up.

Howard, I know you know a lot about suspension equipment, but think of it... you can do ANYTHING with an unlimited budget including just buying Koni because there isn't any doubt that they are the premium setup. I even included a number of caveats along the lines of 'this is what i would use for my average commuter car and not for one i would take to the track' etc.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: I disagree with just about every statement you've made. I would buy konis before anything that you have suggested.

[This message has been edited by Jeremiah (edited 06-01-2004).]

I have front and rear roll bars. Haven't we been though this? I don't know if the rear is going to go back on.

However, the additon of a rear roll bar has problems. The roll bar is a spring. It is also an undamped one. That means that the same forces will have to be damped by less shock absorber movement. Fine with an adjustable, cause you can crank it up , but how do you think an unadjustable that couldn't handle more movement will react with less movement and the same forces? It results in a condition called "roll rock back" at the limit. Oscillation of your sprung mass isn't controllable by any driver.

The statement I made was in regard to what matters in handling and the rear KYBs aren't valved firm enough.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: Howard: Do you have a rear sway bar? The statement you quoted was in regards to ride quality when driving over bumps and stuff, not cornering. My car does exhibit a slight tendency for oversteer in the turns. Once I get the alignment and tires dialed-in, I hope to make the handling more neutral.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: Keep in mind, Konis are adjustable and leave you room to lower the damping rate. I'll also bet the car you were in was over-adjusted towards the firm side.

Yes they were set to "firmest" or whatever the highest setting is. That is the way the owner of the car had them set for on his particular set-up. I have KYB GR-2's and it is about as stiff as you need for the street (when used with the Eibach springs and poly bushings). They may not be the "ultimate" choice for all forms of driving, But they are a very good choice for street and road course driving.
Remember he wants road course and daily driving so the "ultimate" suspension for what he wants to use the car for is a matter of personal preference. He was looking for suggestions. There is no single set-up that is perfect for all driving conditions/styles.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 06-01-2004).]

I wasn't even considering trying to work around a low budget, just a reasonable one. If I was going to be using his car for the applications he listed, I wouldn't get Koni... that's all.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: The bottom line is konis would be more beneficial then all of the other stuff you listed. Don't take it so hard. Just don't reply with budget suspension suggestions next time you see a thread titled "Ultimate Handling" Honestly, if he truely wants ultimate handling, he's gonna have to go a step beyond off the shelf konis.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: By the 3rd or 4th cone on a slalom, the struts have lost control.

I don't think RWDPLZ will be encountering any slaloms on the road courses. I'm sure he'll see his fair share of chicanes, though. In your opinion, would KYB dampers be sufficient for that?

No.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: I don't think RWDPLZ will be encountering any slaloms on the road courses. I'm sure he'll see his fair share of chicanes, though. In your opinion, would KYB dampers be sufficient for that?

For the money I dont think you could beet the setup I have. The budget I had to work with wouldn't pay for a good week end party.
That said I have 84 WS6 front springs cut down one coil. 85GT WS6 rear springs cut down 1/2 coil 84 WS6 front sway bar in the rear with polly endlink bushings and rubber everywhere else. New quality struts and shocks. The ballence is great verry neutral in the corner. It handles the street great the ride is a little stiff but thats the way I like it. I hope to swap in a 4.9 in the near future and keep my 4.10 4sp. An automatic has no place in a sports car!

I agree with Howard, the KYBs aren't stiff enough.

For off the shelf stuff, Konis are the way to go. They're worth the money.

------------------
Doug Chase
Chase Race
Custom roll cage and exhaust fabrication

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: I don't think RWDPLZ will be encountering any slaloms on the road courses. I'm sure he'll see his fair share of chicanes, though. In your opinion, would KYB dampers be sufficient for that?

My KYB's work great on the road course near me. As for the folks stating that KYB's are not stiff enough, I have not had any problems with my set-up. The only thing I can think of is if they are using stock or cut stock springs it may be too soft, But with Eibach's it is very stiff.
Here is the road course I've been on:
http://www.blackhawkfarms.com/

hey orief, you do know that more spring will require more damper. right? that would mean less spring would require less damper. ....I can borrow a high school physics book if you need me to scan in a diagram of a spring and mass system.

I'm on eibach pro kit springs btw.

I'll also bet that you think it's fine because you're not driving hard.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: My KYB's work great on the road course near me. As for the folks stating that KYB's are not stiff enough, I have not had any problems with my set-up. The only thing I can think of is if they are using stock or cut stock springs it may be too soft, But with Eibach's it is very stiff. Here is the road course I've been on: http://www.blackhawkfarms.com/

hey Orief; nice layout; that would be a ball. You're lucky to have access to that; must be great for tuning etc.
Good info too. thanks

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: hey orief, you do know that more spring will require more damper. right? that would mean less spring would require less damper. ....I can borrow a high school physics book if you need me to scan in a diagram of a spring and mass system. I'm on eibach pro kit springs btw. I'll also bet that you think it's fine because you're not driving hard.

Not driving hard?!?!? Get real.
I don't need your physic's book to know how my car handles. My car is set-up and tuned for what I use it for. It was not set-up for driving around little orange cones in a parking lot, It is set-up for high speed road courses. Since I have not rode in your car and you have not rode in mine, How can you say my suspension is bad or too soft or my car doesn't handle?? The fact of the matter is you are ASSUMING how my car handles without any facts other than your own opinion of KYB's.

I am using the Eibach Sportline's with the 1.5" drop not the Pro-kit with the 0.8" drop. There is a difference in just the springs we are using.
Not to mention the tires and alignment settings as well. Instead of a physic's book maybe you should invest in a suspension design and tuning book. The information in a suspension book doesn't just cover mass vs. spring, It covers all aspects of making a car handle both straight line and hard corners at both low and high speed, center of gravity vs. lateral forces vs. suspension geometery vs. tires, etc.
All of these things need to work together to make a car handle. It is alot more then spring vs. mass.

I'm not saying my suspension is the "ultimate" set-up, But it is a very good set-up for what it is tuned for and I have pushed it very hard. Like I said, I've hit 360* increasing radii exit ramps at speeds in excess of 75mph with no problems. (92 mph being the fastest, so far).

So please stop making assumptions on my suspension or my knowledge of how suspensions work.
I have posted what I did and how my car handles as a possible set-up, (which is what was requested in this thread), You can ASSUME what you want and post to your hearts content how bad my equipment is or how I don't understand suspensions, But in the end, I know how my suspension is tuned, why I tuned it this way, and what my car will do in a given condition. You do not.

I added front, rear, and sway-bar poly, Suspension Tech. Springs, and KYB all around. Going through parking lots and hitting mid-sized speebumps at about 3-5 mph, the car seems to have to much bounce(not stiff enough), but at high speeds, it pot holes and random road debris jar the hell out of me, the car sure handles alot better than it did stock, but, several of my friends have complete adjustable set-ups on their 240sx's and they are a dream to drive....if I keep the spring/shock-strut setup, I will probably switch to koni's, you can always adjust for you daily driving or track use!

quote Originally posted by Earl: For the money I dont think you could beet the setup I have. The budget I had to work with wouldn't pay for a good week end party. That said I have 84 WS6 front springs cut down one coil. 85GT WS6 rear springs cut down 1/2 coil 84 WS6 front sway bar in the rear with polly endlink bushings and rubber everywhere else. New quality struts and shocks. The ballence is great verry neutral in the corner. It handles the street great the ride is a little stiff but thats the way I like it. I hope to swap in a 4.9 in the near future and keep my 4.10 4sp. An automatic has no place in a sports car!

This is a very wise budget street setup. I admire it.

Can anyone describe to me what its like putting poly on your suspension and crable and dogbone? How much vibration does it transfer? I really love the idea of replacing rubber with it but just the thought of putting something that stiff where the rubber goes on a control arm or a dogbone makes me teeth chatter just thinking about it. I can handle a little more vibration and stiffness but not so much I may as well be driving a horse carriage with wooden wheels.

Also one thing to keep in mind is that RWDs car is a 4 cylinder which of course is lighter. Didn't know whether you guys were aware or not or whether it would make a difference in your opinions. Also please keep the discussion up without starting a flame war because so far I'm getting a good edumacashion from the discussion.

Actually, swapping the rear of an '88 isn't too bad follow that link I gave you for a kit. The front isn't easy... but the 87-88 front isn't that bad, actually.

I must add that after 18 years with my fiero, I had been through several combinations and let me be clear..

If you only have $500 total, buy Koni's. This will deliver the best performance per dollar of any modification/upgrade. Then consider adding springs, bushings, bars when your budget allows.

My Fiero does compete in Solo2 regularly, and it is fantastic. Koni upgrade from KYB reduced my times by over 1s - and that is a lifetime in Solo2.

daveg

Where to start . .. ..

How did you *set-up* your car for high speed road courses? Was it the off the shelf KYBs or the off the shelf eibachs or let me guess, extra negative camber . .. . *smirk*

Please show me where I ASSUMED how your car handles. All I did was point our your total lack of understanding of how springs and dampers work. You still dont get it. More spring rate equals a need for more damping. You see, youre just as wrong here as you were in the past when you didnt understand what was wrong about being a liar and a crook. Archie might not have built the engine, but he did vouch for it.

I dont need to drive your car to know that if you up the spring rate and keep a damper on the car that wasnt adequate on a stock spring rate, youre going to worsen the problem.

If you want to make misstatements about other areas of vehicle dynamics, Ill be glad to correct you on them in addition to the basics.

if you dont get how springs work, dont bother trying to understand more advanced concepts.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Not driving hard?!?!? Get real. I don't need your physic's book to know how my car handles. My car is set-up and tuned for what I use it for. It was not set-up for driving around little orange cones in a parking lot, It is set-up for high speed road courses. Since I have not rode in your car and you have not rode in mine, How can you say my suspension is bad or too soft or my car doesn't handle?? The fact of the matter is you are ASSUMING how my car handles without any facts other than your own opinion of KYB's. I am using the Eibach Sportline's with the 1.5" drop not the Pro-kit with the 0.8" drop. There is a difference in just the springs we are using. Not to mention the tires and alignment settings as well. Instead of a physic's book maybe you should invest in a suspension design and tuning book. The information in a suspension book doesn't just cover mass vs. spring, It covers all aspects of making a car handle both straight line and hard corners at both low and high speed, center of gravity vs. lateral forces vs. suspension geometery vs. tires, etc. All of these things need to work together to make a car handle. It is alot more then spring vs. mass. I'm not saying my suspension is the "ultimate" set-up, But it is a very good set-up for what it is tuned for and I have pushed it very hard. Like I said, I've hit 360* increasing radii exit ramps at speeds in excess of 75mph with no problems. (92 mph being the fastest, so far). So please stop making assumptions on my suspension or my knowledge of how suspensions work. I have posted what I did and how my car handles as a possible set-up, (which is what was requested in this thread), You can ASSUME what you want and post to your hearts content how bad my equipment is or how I don't understand suspensions, But in the end, I know how my suspension is tuned, why I tuned it this way, and what my car will do in a given condition. You do not.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: Where to start . .. .. How did you *set-up* your car for high speed road courses? Was it the off the shelf KYBs or the off the shelf eibachs or let me guess, extra negative camber . .. . *smirk* Please show me where I ASSUMED how your car handles. All I did was point our your total lack of understanding of how springs and dampers work. You still dont get it. More spring rate equals a need for more damping. You see, youre just as wrong here as you were in the past when you didnt understand what was wrong about being a liar and a crook. Archie might not have built the engine, but he did vouch for it. I dont need to drive your car to know that if you up the spring rate and keep a damper on the car that wasnt adequate on a stock spring rate, youre going to worsen the problem. If you want to make misstatements about other areas of vehicle dynamics, Ill be glad to correct you on them in addition to the basics. if you dont get how springs work, dont bother trying to understand more advanced concepts.

Sorry Howie, But I am not the one who is wrong. You just appear to have a lack of understanding of how a suspension system actually works.
I know how springs and dampers work. It is obvious you don't know what the spring rates and damper rates are for my particular springs and the shocks/struts. So without any data other than "they seemed soft" to you, How can you state mine is inadequate??? Now you say that the KYB's aren't even adequate for the stock springs???? Please stop trying to convince yourself you actually know what your talking about.
Maybe the problem is you don't understand springs and dampers and you think if you over dampen a spring, it's better than matching spring rates and damper rates.

I'm not even going to discuss the engine incident. If those reading this want to know, they can look it up in the archives and decide for themselves who was wrong. I made my decision as well as numerous others who shared the same viewpoint.

Misstatements??? Where did I misstate something?????? I have not posted any "misinformation".

You have yet to post what you consider "driving hard" or "driving at the limit" I doubt you even know what it is.

I am not even going to get into suspension tuning as you wouldn't even understand it.

As to other members, I made my suggestion, stated what I am using, and stated my experience with this set-up. If you want to follow Howie's advice, you are more than welcome to it. But I would suggest getting a decent book on suspensions and how to set-up cars for certain types of driving. Herb Adams has a few good articles that are specific to the 84-87 Fiero set-ups.