Yeah, I was kinda wondering about a roll cage, or at least a roll bar in my Fiero.
I mean, it's bound for 500HP, and the lighter motor will make it land in the 2,400 lb range, so 11 second E/T's are possible, and the last thing I need is the NHRA biotching at me for going under 12.99 without a roll bar.
------------------ PETTY OFFICER (no more airman!) Michael C Casaceli Patrol Squadron Ten, United States Navy 1988 Pontiac Fiero 2.5L, soon to be 2.2L Ecotec Turbo (THE PROJECT HAS STARTED!!!) 1988 Oldsmobile Firenza 2.0L non-turbo (R.I.P.my beloved J-body. KIA by a Ford) 1994 Chevy S-10 4.3, it's finally here, and it is gorgeous!
I'd like a precaged car, but theres a problem there... my dad and the family has a total of 17 cars last time i counted, and he doesnt want me bring more in... so im gonna MOD the hek outta the 1 i have... But i gotta do all this w/out a garage... (Fastback swap, cage / roll bar, V6 drop, considering a removeable rear window such as skitimes, integrated rocker panel instal, lambo hinges...)
Right now im consentreating on the fastback swap, rol cage, engine drop, and removeable rear window... Since im gonna have the roof off to install a sunroof, and the rear off, now would be the best time to d oall the swaps and conversions since I'll have it all torn apart and such...
------------------ 1987 Notchback, L4 (White) **Daily driver (Fastback to be, I'll save everyone the trouble of reading my MOD plans ;) )**
Holley used to manufacture a very good looking chrome roll bar for the Fiero but have since discontinued it. I don't see too much room in the Fiero cockpit for a roll cage but I guess that it can be done. However, if you use this car for the street, you may be sacrificing much of the passenger space. I believe that most sanctioning bodies require just a roll bar for cars running 12's in the 1/4 mile, so if you intend to be in that bracket, perhaps just a bar will do.
I emailed Doug, and sent him the link to this thread in a PM, so he should be poping in here sometime...
I won't be racing it, unless Im late to get somewhere... J/k
It'll be a street / show car...
By the time the entire car is done (gimmie awhile) I'd like to put a supercharged or Turboed LT1 in it... If its even possible, I havent looked into the possibilites yet... But i do know a regular LT1 will fit... So a roll bar is a definate, and getting it from doug is another positive, but wether I want a cage, or just a bar I havent decided... Im gonna start the full swap: Fastback / sunroof / V6 / Bar or cage / possibly a removeable rear window or something of that nature on it around the 18th of july (going on a missions trip to mexico and wont have the fastback till i get back...
I'd like to get everything figured out by then and know wether i want a bar or a cage by then so i can do all the swaps and such as soon as i get the fastback here...
But yea, anyone have pix of they're bar Doug made em ?
I wouln't mind seeing pix of them if its possible...
Just FYI, as I recall, all fieros had the cut out for sunroof in the frame, the only difrence is a 1/16 layer of fiberglass, the flimsy headliner, and some paint. So if you're worried about changing the saftey, it'll be just the same. and BTW, im gonna be changing the 88 I get from you into a sunroof, so If I get done first, I'll let you know of any snags , you do the same?
Also, Ive heard that the rear window provides a good bit of stability to the frame. Also, its not as easy as you'd think to remove it with the car intact, I had looked over the possibilities on one of my stripped cars. There is someone on here who has a reoveable section, like 3' wide. Not to discourage you, I'd love to have a removable window if someone could figure out how, but Im just letting you know what Ive come across
And you mentioned scissor doors, keep me informed there, as that is one mod Id love to do, except the cost is so high, if its somehow possible Id go halves with you on the cost of plans or something. Just let me know
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04:26 AM
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1644 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
They make a roll bar and a complete cage for the Fiero... around $600-700 for the cage. A word of caution: if you order their standard competition cage for the Fiero it may come with a petty bar (a diagonal cross bracing bar that is intended to compensate for the lack of rear brace bars). If you are using the Fiero for SCCA type competition events, you will probably want the petty bar. If not, it can be ordered without.
------------------ FierOmar
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11:38 AM
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Jul 8th, 2004
Doug Chase Member
Posts: 1487 From: Seattle area, Washington State, USA Registered: Sep 2001
Sorry I'm late. I've just catching up on the Forum after being out of town for a few days.
Hugh and Yons, thanks for the recomendations.
Putting a cage in a car is quite possible, but may not be desirable for a street car. Even packaged as tightly as possible they still intrude on interior space.
Chase Race has done quite a few bars that aren't on the web page yet. If anybody is interested, send mail to doug at chaserace dot com and I can send you some pictures.
We make a bar similar to the one Holly used to make -- basically a main hoop with no bracing. The price on this bar is $200 plus shipping. We can do anything you want beyond that, so drop an email or call if you need something. 425-269-5636.
------------------ Doug Chase Chase Race Custom roll cage and exhaust fabrication
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08:55 PM
Jul 11th, 2004
gryphon025 Member
Posts: 127 From: Portland, OR 97233 Registered: Apr 2004
Jegs also makes a roll cage for the fiero and is available from 4 point to 12 point although I cant really see any reason for more than 4 point in the car unless you are doing sanctioned racing and then you will need at least an 8 point. You do have to weld the jegs cages together but they are less expensive. Just depends on what you want.
I bought a roll bar from Jegs and had to send it back.It didn't even fit in the car it was too wide.Phone conversations with them confirmed it was the one they sell for Fieros,but it didn't fit.
------------------ #1112 Question my ability,question my intelligence,never question my integrity!
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06:50 AM
Jul 13th, 2004
Primaris Member
Posts: 550 From: Oak Grove, KY USA Registered: Aug 2001
I bought a roll bar from Jegs and had to send it back.It didn't even fit in the car it was too wide.Phone conversations with them confirmed it was the one they sell for Fieros,but it didn't fit.
Did you ask them if the fitment applied to the car with interior trim installed or with it out? Did your car have the trim out?
Thanks, Primaris
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01:59 PM
hugh Member
Posts: 5563 From: Clementon,NJ,USA Registered: Jun 2000
Hmm... Not to intrude on the thread here, but anyone know for sure what the rules are for racing and cages? Basically, what do you *have* to have to go under 12.99 in the 1/4 mile? I'm hoping for mid-12s in the future, but didn't really plan on a cage.. Is just a "hoop" bar OK, or does it need to be something more substantial? Doug's A-frame bar/cage there looks great, but like it was said, probably not the best for a daily driver..... Anyone know?? - Bob Williams
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10:04 PM
Jul 14th, 2004
hugh Member
Posts: 5563 From: Clementon,NJ,USA Registered: Jun 2000
The bar Doug made for me has a Petty bar going from the top bar to the passenger side floor and a side bar from the main hoop going to the drivers side floor.Both are removable,and when not in the car there is nothing but the main hoop behind the seats.
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06:49 AM
Master Tuner Akimoto Member
Posts: 2267 From: South Florida,USA Registered: Jul 2003
Yeah, I was kinda wondering about a roll cage, or at least a roll bar in my Fiero.
I mean, it's bound for 500HP, and the lighter motor will make it land in the 2,400 lb range, so 11 second E/T's are possible, and the last thing I need is the NHRA biotching at me for going under 12.99 without a roll bar.
Woo, just did some checking with the NHRA rules... Looks like down to 11.99 is OK with *no* roll bar of any type. (except convertible) But below 11.99, you need a full bar with side brace (across driver's seat) and other braces.... -> Also if you're going to go faster than 135mph at the end of the 1/4, you'll need one. Of course you'll be faster than 11.99 if you're doing 135... Sooo... Looks like those of us at or over 12 seconds are OK, but you might be in trouble with 500HP... For reference, the NHRA FAQ: http://www.nhra.com/contacts/tech_faq.html
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05:29 PM
hugh Member
Posts: 5563 From: Clementon,NJ,USA Registered: Jun 2000
The problem I had with that rollbar was it had to go through the back window.I don't want to cut my back window out and make it out of plexiglass.Doug made mine with a Petty bar and it was approved by the NHRA tech out in the division where he lives.The tech director in division 1 where I live said it wasn't according to the rulebook and wouldn't pass inspection.My feeling is;I'm not putting it in for anything,but to save my a$$ if I need it,and I also don't want to cut up my car.So I figured it was better to have a bar that didn't pass at an NHRA National event but would be just fine at the local track,plus it really does look good and is just as safe!
------------------ #1112 Question my ability,question my intelligence,never question my integrity!
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05:59 PM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
Woo, just did some checking with the NHRA rules... Looks like down to 11.99 is OK with *no* roll bar of any type. (except convertible) But below 11.99, you need a full bar with side brace (across driver's seat) and other braces....
I might be wrong, but if you check a little deeper, I think you'll find that you also need a trans blanket and/or a flywheel scatter shield as well. That's the main reason I only ran mine a couple times at the track, after I turned the 12.2 they warned me that I'd have to conform to the rules if I broke into the 11's.
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07:38 PM
Riceburner98 Member
Posts: 2179 From: Natick, Ma, USA Registered: Apr 2002
Hmm... Yeah, I only looked into the "FAQ's" about the cage / bars.. Didn't want to buy the rulebook.. I'm pretty much with Hugh here - I want one to add some "butt-saving" protection, without intruding too much, and satisfy the local tracks if they require.. I think I'd wet myself (lol) if I drove a car faster than 12.0, so hopefully the scatter shield and all that good stuff wont' come into play. 12.2 must feel great though... And now back to our regularly scheduled topic... What was it again?
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10:34 PM
Jul 15th, 2004
Doug Chase Member
Posts: 1487 From: Seattle area, Washington State, USA Registered: Sep 2001
I've got a bunch of stuff. I think this'll be post #1000 so I figured I'd make it useful.
Allen / mcaanda, thank you for the kind words. And nice picture! Looks like your powdercoater did a nice job! And I must give credit where credit is due. Robert Beaubien came up with that design for the main hoop. Oh, and it's Chase Race not Racing.
Will, bolt in installation is possible, but for something more than just the "show" bar I recommend weld in. It doesn't currently tie in to the shoulder harness anchors, but I can do that if you want. Those tabs on the above picture are the mounts for the removable door bars.
Master Tuner Akimoto, I make one similar to that for $200 plus shipping, and tax if you're in WA:
Ricerburner98, you are correct about the roll bar requirements for 11.99 and faster. And CK is right that you need a scattershield at that ET if you have a clutch.
Hugh, thank you, too, for the kind words. If I remember correctly (and it's possible that I don't), my NHRA rep out here wouldn't deviate at all from the book either.
For the rest of you, what we're talking about is that if you look at the picture Riceburner98 posted you'll see a couple problems with trying to put this bar in a Fiero. Problem 1 is that you need to remove the back window for the strut tower bars. Problem 2 is that the harness bar wants to go right through the computer. Both of these problems can be overcome, but the point is that it's not as easy for us as for the typical front engined rear drive family car that the rules were written for.
The bar I did for Hugh and mcaanda solves the harness mounting problems but doesn't meet NHRA rules. Robert Beaubien worked with the rules steward for the Silver State classic and it does meet their rules with the appropriate mounting.
The petty bar I did for Hugh strengthens the main hoop in the event that it actually gets used, but doesn't meet NHRA rules. SCCA roadracing does allows a petty bar instead of strut tower braces in the Fiero.
It's possible that your local 1/4 mile track may let you slide, but you ought to check with them first.
I'm way behind on a major website update. Until then feel free to send email to doug at chaserace dot com. (I write it like that to hide from the spam bots that crawl forums). The email address is on the web site, too.
------------------ Doug Chase Chase Race Custom roll cage and exhaust fabrication
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03:25 AM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
I've been corresponding with Doug and we have a few thoughts to add to this discussion.
In order to properly reinforce a Fiero we need to know the failure modes of the Fiero chassis when it's hit hard from above. I happen to have a chassis that's been hit hard from above in my back yard.
I flipped my first Fiero (original blue '87 GT, BTW ). I ended up sliding sideways (right side up) into a bank and rolling up the bank. When I crested it I had enough momentum to get airborne long enough to cover about ten feet over the ground. The car landed on its roof (right on the corner directly over my head) which caved several inches but didn't crush completely. It left me with enough room to stay alive by pulling myself down toward the steering wheel. If I hadn't done that, I would have been killed. The top of the roof ended up about the level of the tops of my ears.
Here are a couple of pictures of the damage:
As expected, the rear center of the roof bent a good bit. That's not a problem for a cage to hold up to, especially if it's tied to the roof in a couple of places. Incidentally, there's almost no damage on the passenger side. The passenger door works perfectly and the passenger window didn't even break. Excellent structural integrity on the part of the Fiero, but we already knew that.
Here's the real reason the roof crushed as much as it did: the B-pillar/door jamb buckled at a single point right below the level of the top of the door.
This is the weak spot of the Fiero overhead crash structure. In order to maximally reinforce the Fiero chassis, a roll bar or cage would have to tie heavily into this spot. That tie in of course is not expressly for the purpose of side impact protection, but rather to prevent the B-pillar from buckling and spreading in a heavy overhead impact.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
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11:10 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14250 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
The NHRA roll cage rules are written primarily for body-on-frame cars with lots on interior space and very little overhead structure. This description couldn't be any further from the essence of a Fiero. The Fiero is a unit chassis car with very little interior space and a great deal of overhead structure.
In the kind of car for which the NHRA rules were written, the driver has plenty of head room to lose and the car has very little overhead crash structure. The cage can form the entirety of the car's roll over protection, and it's OK for the roof to crush down onto the cage.
In a Fiero, however, the driver doesn't have a lot of headroom to lose (I've barely got an inch!), but it does have a lot of its own rollover protection. To work well in a Fiero, the cage has to integrate with and complement the factory rollover protection. Properly engineered, this will result in a structure that's stronger than either one indiviidually, or even both put together. This will result in the minimum intrusion into the passenger compartment in the event of a roll over.
Also, I require all but about 1 notch of seat travel to have a comfortable driving position. In order for large people to remain comfortable with a cage in the car, the cage itself must have minimal intrusion into the passenger compartment.
Here's a picture Doug sent me of his show bar being installed, along with my highly artistic suggested changes:
Lay the bottom foot or so of tubing back a few degrees to follow the firewall better, then bend it to go more vertical and continue following the firewal contour. Doug already has a bend about that location, so it shouldn't be too hard to implement this. The upper section of the bar ends up approximately parallel to the way Doug had it in the first place, so very little else should have to be changed. As I suggested earlier, it should be tied in very solidly to the B-pillar just below the level of the top of the door. A backing plate reinforcement there wouldn't be a bad idea, either.
Here's a view of Doug's real roll bar with some suggested changes:
I think the addition of a long angle bracket, bolted or welded solidly to the roof, will make the combination of the bar and the roof into an I-beam like structure that's stronger than the two structures would be otherwise.
------------------ '87 Fiero GT: Low, Sleek, Fast, and Loud '90 Pontiac 6000 SE AWD: None of the Above
Luck, Fate and Destiny are words used by those who lack the courage to define their own future
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-16-2004).]
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11:19 AM
Aug 19th, 2004
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
, you do the same?
Also if you're going to go faster than 135mph at the end of the 1/4, you'll need one. Of course you'll be faster than 11.99 if you're doing 135... 
Sooo... Looks like those of us at or over 12 seconds are OK, but you might be in trouble with 500HP... 
). I ended up sliding sideways (right side up) into a bank and rolling up the bank. When I crested it I had enough momentum to get airborne long enough to cover about ten feet over the ground. The car landed on its roof (right on the corner directly over my head) which caved several inches but didn't crush completely. It left me with enough room to stay alive by pulling myself down toward the steering wheel. If I hadn't done that, I would have been killed. The top of the roof ended up about the level of the tops of my ears.
