It is finally time to get started on the woman's car, she was so happy to see it get rolled into the garage today. She has a 1985 2m6 SE that has a 2.8 and 125-C in it now but the motor knocks. I have the 1997 3800 Series II n/a (L36) engine left over from my Fiero when I did the turbo upgrade and this is what she wanted. My friend just rebuilt a 4T60-E with 3.06 gears a couple of months ago for me so this is the tranny we will be using. I am expecting mid to high 14's in the 1/4 mile and 35 mpg out of it when it is complete. Unlike my personal car, I plan to spend more attention to detail on this swap as I would like it to be as close to show quality as possible without breaking the bank. Unforetuneately we will have to use the L36's ugly plastic upper intake plenum for now until I can find another all-aluminum Camaro/Firebird intake that we can paint up nice. So far this afternoon I removed some of the wiring and am prepping the motor/trans/cradle to be pulled from the car.

Like I said this motor is junk BUT the 125-C that is attached to it is in good condition with functional TCC. The build code (85-CD) returns saying this trans has a 3.33 final drive. Anyone looking for a 3.33 125-C trans?

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power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Custom Chip Burning | Fiero Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | www.gmtuners.com

Yippie!!! Not that I mind money making projects around here, but I've been put on the back burner for a long time and I can't wait to have my car done! Darth doesn't want me to have a turbo charged car and for a very good reason, every time I drive his I get that little green monster that everyone has and it comes out in full force and well, I would get into trouble on a very regular basis. So the next best thing is a sporty car with great gas milage especially since I have to drive to the clinic every day which is across state lines for school. Another great aspect is since I live with him and cook for him, I get a great discount on labor!!! I look forward to this car being at the Heartland show Aug 21!!!

Can't wait to see how it comes out! I take it you are going OBD-I again?

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- Kyle

Fiero Quarter Mile Database
Fiero Image Gallery

Its about bloody time!!! Congrats, should be a little eye popper!!

Ryan, I'm sure that will be one first class ride when you're done. I enjoyed my visit with you and the discussion about my future install. I was impressed by your knowlege and expertise about the 3800 motor. I feel very confident that you will do a very professional install and attention to detail when my turn comes around. Keep in touch.
dizmon_85GT Pete Disbennett

[This message has been edited by dizmon_85GT (edited 07-25-2004).]

Thanks for the props everyone, and Mr. Pat, yea I know its about time I am sick of this thing taking up valuable driveway space!

Anyway, I got the engine/trans/cradle pulled yesterday and completely disassembled the stock 2.8L and got the transmission off of it. Here are some pics:

Today I have a couple if different directions I can take. The cradle needs to be cleaned, I need to replace the battery tray in this car, and I need to work on my custom serpentine setup for the 3800. Yes, it is going to be OBDI again frankly because I think it is just so much easier not having to find a place for that bulky under-hood OBDII computer nor having to mess with all that extra OBDII wiring BS.

So you don't think it would be easier to just use everything from the donor car and leave it stock? Converting to OBD1 when you are already using the complete engine and transmission seems like the harder route. I'll find out once I get going on mine...

Well, I don't have a complete harness nor an OBDII computer, plus I am using a 4T60-E which means that narrows down my choices of OBDII computers (as far as I know only the 96-97 3800 n/a engines were available with the 4T60-E). But besides all that I still have to do wiring which means no matter what there is a lot of work involved, regardless of what computer or transmission you decide to use. In my case, I will be starting with the stock 2.8 harness and adding wiring for the transmission and SFI amoung other things. I believe this way is less work and allows me more options of how I want to route the wiring and where I want to put things like the EVAP solenoid.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-26-2004).]

Mr. Pat, yep it's about time this project gets underway...it's been sitting since last June when we bought it with a blown motor. But since it got shoved aside for so long (other projects like yours seemed to keep getting in the way of mine) the tranny we had for it got used on another car and then we had to get another built by our very busy friend (Darth could do it but this guy can do it in his sleep) and then we were able to wait and get the hookups and such so the swap in general will be very economical. I'm also really excited about my gas mileage since Darth has been driving my olds, the gas gauge goes down at an alarming rate I don't think I will have the problem of Darth driving this car so much...the interior was so nice I bought some seat covers to keep them new-looking and well they have butterflies embroidered into them and he told me he wouldn't be seen dead in it while they are on! Darn the bad luck! Well we have a wedding to leave for Thursday night so I'm not sure how much Darth will be able to do between now and then but I'm sure a few pics will be up, if I know him there will be more than expected done before we go!

Painted the cradle today so I have to wait for it to cure before I can mount the powertrain to it. Meanwhile, I got the engine and trans bolted together and started putting the exhaust manifolds on amoung other things.

I have 5 different alternators laying around that I am playing with to see if there is any way of rerouting the serpentine setup without having to buy expensive custom brackets (I would rather make my own).

I would like to share with all of you what I have been using for starters on my swaps. Most 97-up FWD GM cars use a gear reduction, permanent magnet type starter like the top one in the following picture:

The bottom starter in the picture is the one that came off the stock 2.8. As you can see the newer style is significanty smaller than the stock 2.8 unit. The good news is that GM used these gear reduction type starters on just about everything 97-up with exception of the NorthStar, Aurora V8, and Quad-4 engines. Even some S-10's with the 2200 (2.2L) engine had this same starter and they will all directly bolt up to the stock Fiero 2.8L or 2.5L if you are looking to save a little weight and make it easier to swap out the starter.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-27-2004).]

The serpentine setup is finished. I had an alternator that looked to be off a 94 S-10 which bolted to the rear head and I only had to make two small brackets to tie the rest of it in to the engine. I bought two ribbed pulleys, one to replace the tensioner and one to use as an idler and put them on.

Here is the alternator I used. Like I said before, the alternator bolts directly to the head, then the bottom bolt gets bolted to the bracket that bolts the engine and trans together, then I ran a tie-rod from the back of the alternator to the block as well. With 3 mounting points it is not going anywhere.

I also got the engine mounted to the cradle but ran out of welding wire right as I was fabbing up the last mount bracket.

Thats probably all that I will get done I have to go out of town to a wedding thursday so it will be next week before I get back on this project.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-29-2004).]

I'm really excited how it's finally coming together! Next week we should both have some more time to devote to this project, I'm looking foreward to getting my hands dirty by doing some work on cosmetic issues and being the overall gopher when I'm not in school or the clinic.

Hey I had one of these! Same trans too. I only could manage 14.8-15.2's @92mph with it. But that was without your PCM expertise. It did run 13.27@105mph with a 100shot of NOS though. I have a 3.33 gear set out of my old trans if you are interested. The problem with mine was that is was a SLUG off the line. Could only manage 2.1-2.2 60's. But this isn't a drag racer, it is a perfect cruising and commuter motor!

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USED to be NOS3800
1988 Purple Fiero GTw/SC3800 conversion
Best ET with 3.0 pulley and 1.9 rockers: 12.74@105mph
Best 60 Foot: 1.735

I'm watching this very closely, I'm in the middle of putting a 3800/4T60E into my wife's Fiero. Darth does beautifully tidy installs, I only hope mine works out half as good as this one.

Darth, I believe you've covered axles in your previous posts - Manual Fiero and Pontiac 6000 is your weapon of choice, right? Have you ever tried axles from '94 U-van w/ 3800? I don't mean to change this into yet another axle thread, just curious.

I think you could probably do that if you were to yank off the stock outer joints and put the Beretta ones on. I would expect them to be more appropriately sized than the Beretta units (which only work on the driver's side!)

Kurt

Looks GREAT Darth, as usual. Damn its the wifey take over. Im doing a 3800 S/C swap on my wifes 87GT. Im doing hers 1st, so that way I can spend the next year doing mine. LOL. I feel you on the seat covers, YIKES. My wife has a special paint job she wants on hers. Im sure I cant say, but it will definately keep me OUT OF HER CAR. I dont care how fast it is........help. Good Luck with the rest of the install and keep the pics coming.

Later.

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88GT 5 spd Red w/grey int. Interior out, taking engine apart.
88GT 5 spd Red w/tan int. engine swap later....still doesnt run well.
87GT auto, Maroon,grey, w/grey int. MamaPenguins Car....3800 S/C swap has begun...Yes Im very nervous.
85 2M4, Blue, 5 spd, w/ GT body on it.
87GT 5 spd 2.8L Silver w/grey int.

Hey Darth, how are you going to make the electronic throttle control work? If i am correct i thought that the new 3.8's have the drive by wire throttle. But correct me if am wrong though

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quote Originally posted by daniel87fierogt: Hey Darth, how are you going to make the electronic throttle control work? If i am correct i thought that the new 3.8's have the drive by wire throttle. But correct me if am wrong though

Daniel, only the Series III 3800's have electronic throttle control, that I am aware of. Now concerning this topic, getting electronic throttle to work involves nothing more than hooking up the gas pedal sensor from the donar car to the Fiero's gas pedal. If you didn't want elec throttle, you could always swap on a manual throttle body and use an earlier PCM.

This engine that I am using is of 1997 vintage. The PCM is 1995 and the tranny is 1996.

hey Darth, looks cool. For some odd reason I think that plastic L36 intake looks good I like the fact that you use the newer style accessories, I used the starter , alternator and AC compressor that came with the engine on the 3800SC swap I did for a forum member. I can't figure out any reason why people stick with that old stuff when the newer stuff works just nifty!

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: No I have never tried the U-van axles. Soon I will be tackling the axle issue in this thread and I plan to include measurements so anyone can go out to the junk yard and rummage thru the CV axle pile instead of having to buy new axles.

Props to you for sharing, man. In fact, going out of your way to make it easier for those of us who (try to) follow in your footsteps.

Keep up the good work!

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: The serpentine setup is finished. I had an alternator that looked to be off a 94 S-10 which bolted to the rear head and I only had to make two small brackets to tie the rest of it in to the engine. I bought two ribbed pulleys, one to replace the tensioner and one to use as an idler and put them on. Here is the alternator I used. Like I said before, the alternator bolts directly to the head, then the bottom bolt gets bolted to the bracket that bolts the engine and trans together, then I ran a tie-rod from the back of the alternator to the block as well. With 3 mounting points it is not going anywhere.

Hiya Darth!

I had an alternator off of a C5 and was looking at sticking it in the same spot... problem was that it was a hair to big in diameter (or the mounting point was too close to the housing). Saw your post and was like whoa! Ran out and pulled the alternator off our 95 Jimmy, but the back plate is different. Looked @ AC-Delco's site and cross referenced my alternator with those of the 94 model year S10s. Spent some time @ partsamerica.com guessing cars and looking at their alts and the C5 ones look close, but that's it.

Any other identification on that alt that could help lead me to discover where it came from? I really like that mounting point in the back of your alt better then then mine. I suppose either would work, just yours looks better.

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- Kyle

Fiero Quarter Mile Database
Fiero Image Gallery

[This message has been edited by nitro (edited 08-01-2004).]

quote Originally posted by nitro: Any other identification on that alt that could help lead me to discover where it came from? I really like that mounting point in the back of your alt better then then mine. I suppose either would work, just yours looks better.

It looks like one from a 1997 C1500 pickup with the 4.3L V6 has the identical mounting points. I know someone with this exact truck and will take a look at it next weekend to see if it is in fact the same alternator.

I was exhausted after this weekend and am still surprised how much he got done yesterday! I love the fact that this is coming together finally. But here's the thing, if this is the wifey takeover you should be very grateful your wife is so cool. After all it is a lot easier to get part money out of a woman that understands the value of what you are doing than one that is constantly saying "what good is that car, we can't take the kids with us." I think the wifey takeover should be a celebrated issue!!! The seatcovers are my thing, I think Darth is just grateful that I am going to quit trying to take his car at every turn if I have my own that he is too embarrassed to drive because I get into trouble with turbos. You know that little green monster in all of us that comes out when you drive a fast car??? well I'm especially bad about it and well really do need a fuel efficient car in the city...so no turbo for me...YET! (He He He) I still give him the pouty lip every now and then but it doesn't work. Anyway I'm glad someone likes the plastic intake, I think it is the ugliest thing ever designed...I can't wait to get the aluminum one off of a camaro like Darth's but it will have to wait a little bit. And remember your wife is cool if she likes fieros...appreciate it.

Sorry it has been a busy couple of days. First things first, I got started on the cooling system, hooked up the heater hoses and the lower radiator hose. I used a molded hose from AutoZone p/n L-955 which was a little long but it seems to work ok.

I also moved the coil pack mounting closer to the engine to better hide the alternator bracket and painted the injectors and fuel rails and installed all of those pieces. The fuel system is hooked up.

Tomorrow I plan on finishing up the cooling system and hooking up the trans cooler lines and maybe move on to the CV axles.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 08-05-2004).]

I'm wondering what your going to do with the exhaust.

quote Originally posted by The Adjuster: You know that little green monster in all of us that comes out when you drive a fast car??? well I'm especially bad about it and well really do need a fuel efficient car in the city...so no turbo for me...YET! (He He He)

"Little green monster"? You mean Rat Fink?

Ed

Well I didn't make it to the cooling system or CV axles but I did manage to get the A/C hooked up using the stock Fiero 2.8 lines!

The compressor I used fits the Series 1 style A/C bracket perfectly and GM sells a sealing washer retro kit that allows you to use the older style A/C lines with the newer style Delphi 134a compressor. I will get some part numbers posted for the sealing washer kit and compressor soon.

Using this compressor, the A/C lines do have to be bent slightly to clear the block and knock sensor but it is no big issue. This series 1 3800 A/C bracket I used also has a provision for a motor mount directly under the compressor. To use this series 1 a/c bracket on a series 2 3800 some grinding is necessary to clear the oil dipstick tube.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 08-06-2004).]

edhering, wasn't rat fink a ford mustang thing??? Honestly, I'm not sure but those old fords are the only thing I've ever seen rat fink on. but then again rat fink was well before my time, funny pic though...and it's true the moster in me probably does look like that.

As promised, here are the part numbers you need for the A/C system:

A/C compressor: 1136512 (fits 95-99 Olds Aurora, possibly others)
Sealing washer retro kit: 2724887 (the red washer in the kit is the correct thickness for the discharge port)

You will also need a thin sealing washer for the suction port that is not included in that kit. I got mine from NAPA p/n: 207275

The A/C compressor bracket I used is p/n 24500403 but it appears it has been discontinued from GM. I believe this bracket fits either W-body or H-body 88-92? applications using the 3800 Series 1 engine.

Had to go out of town for the weekend to pick up a 3.4 SFI camaro upper intake and 4.0L Aurora V8 core engine for RAREW66's upcoming projects, as well as get a few things for myself. One of the things I picked up from my old stomping grounds was a pair of 90 degree fuel line quick disconnects for the fuel rails.

After installing those I moved on to the CV axles. The 4T60-E, along with the 440-T4 and 4T65-E use a bigger driver's side spline axle in the trans. The passenger side is still the same as stock Fiero. Also, the transmission is physically larger on the driver's side which means you will have to install a shorter axle to keep the shaft from bottoming out on the inner tripod. My axle of choice can be found in 94-up Berettas and Corsicas amoung other vehicles with similar body styles. The junk yard I normally go to already has the axles removed and stacked on shelves. If you go looking for this axle out of the car you are going to want to find the shortest GM axle that uses the small outer Fiero-size spline for the wheel bearing, which looks something like this:

The exposed inner shaft should measure about 1.5" between the CV boots. As for the passenger side, it gets a little bit more tricky. The overall inner shaft length should be about 14.5", or the measurement between the CV boots should be about 3.5". The problem is I have found most GM axles measure either 4" or 3" in this area. The 2001 Impala with the 4T45-E transaxle has the correct length inner axle however GM changed the way the outer tripods are attached to the shaft on these newer cars. You can get the older hardware to fit on the shafts but the spacing for the snap ring grooves is slightly farther apart but I have been able to make it work in the past without any problems. In any case you still have some room to play with here on the passenger side but again if in doubt check for binding or inner tripod pull-out just in case.

Note: this does not pertain to 4T60-E HD, 4T65-E HD, or 4T80-E transaxles as those use yet a larger inner shaft and inner tripod end spline which is not compatible with what I have used in this particular 4T60-E.

quote Originally posted by The Adjuster: edhering, wasn't rat fink a ford mustang thing??? Honestly, I'm not sure but those old fords are the only thing I've ever seen rat fink on. but then again rat fink was well before my time, funny pic though...and it's true the moster in me probably does look like that.

No ma'am, Rat Fink is a hot rodder thing...may have started as a Mustang thing (I'm not sure) but he ended up being adopted by the entire hot rod community as a universal symbol of the beast that lurks in us all...

Ed

Great Thread! Darth ..... You are THE MAN!

edhering, thanks for the explanation, i didn't know that and yes I love the sound of the wastegate when you let out of the throttle especially when you have just passed the latest victim that thinks they can hang with a lowly fiero!!! The sound just seems to turn people's heads with there eyebrows raised and jaws dropped cause they have no idea what just happened! See I told you I was bad and that is why Darth won't let me have one of my own until I am a doctor and can afford my own tickets!!! Winter/Spring '05 may be the perfect time to schedule the upgrade! Until then I will be satisfied with my grocery gettin', butterfly clad, gas mizer fiero.

am i mistaken or were some of the 90's buick 3.8's turbo stock?
mmmm blow of valve

looks like your moving right along! A quicky question to slow you down long enough to type here :-)

Did you swap valve covers to get the oil fill cap on the side of engine you'll see with trunk open?

I'm looking forward to seeing what configuration you use on the exhaust. From your pictures I see that only one manifold is heat sheilded and looks like the one on the firewall side of the fiero is the one that won't be sheilded. That an issue?

Scott

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: looks like your moving right along! A quicky question to slow you down long enough to type here :-) Did you swap valve covers to get the oil fill cap on the side of engine you'll see with trunk open? I'm looking forward to seeing what configuration you use on the exhaust. From your pictures I see that only one manifold is heat sheilded and looks like the one on the firewall side of the fiero is the one that won't be sheilded. That an issue? Scott

Yes, I swapped valve covers so the oil fill was near the back of the car. As far as the heat shields, I did not have the front shield at the time of installation but when I was out of town this weekend I picked up the front one and installed it last night.

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: am i mistaken or were some of the 90's buick 3.8's turbo stock? mmmm blow of valve

79?-83 Buicks were offered with the carbed 3.8L turbo
84-85 Buicks were offered with the EFI 3.8L turbo
86-87 Buicks were offered with the EFI 3.8L intercooled turbo
1989 Trans Am's were offered with the same EFI 3.8L intercooled turbo

Starting in 1992, GM offered the 3800 Series I with a supercharger