I just got off the phone with Delta Cams. Before I called I was under the impression that the Delta cam regrind for the 4.9 required head work in order to use it. I was told by the guy at Delta that they make a cam with .450 lift, 203 duration, and 110* lobe center for the 4.9 that slides right in with no modifications. He said they've sold hundreds of them and they'll add roughly 10% hp and torque increase. Anyway for those of you who still have your 4.9's out of the car this might be something worth looking into before the ole install.

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-Rick Stewart
85GT 4.9V8/Isuzu 5-spd in progress...

How much $ ?

How about head work on the 4.9?

I posted this on the Fiero Caddy swap group, but saw this discussion so I will post it here also.

The free length of the performance spring is 57.6mm and 35mm diameter.

The free lentgth of an Allante spring is 53.8 on a used spring (factory says 54 new) and 33.4mm diameter.

As measured on an Allante head today, the bottom of the valve retainer bottoms out on the valve seal at .450 lift, but without the seal, it will go to .520 lift.

Tomorrow, I want to test this on another head from another engine just to be sure these readings are consistant.

Delta Cams has a .450 lift cam they say is a bolt in, but I would worry about it beating on the valve seal all the time, particularly with any valve float.

Gene

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87 Notchie 4.9
87 SE 3.4TDC swap almost done
87 Notchie Caddy 472 longitudinal coming soon
85GT new to the stable and slated to get a N*

quote How much $ ?

fourpoint9- I was quoted $125.00 with a $40.00 core charge. Not sure if they meant it would be a total of $85 after the core or a total of $125 after the core. Rockcrawl and PBJ both indicated in previous posts that the reground cam was around $90.00 so I would assume it's 125-40=85.

quote How about head work on the 4.9?

Formula88- I pressed the guy at Delta several times about the necessity of having any head work at all done. He assured me that it was a direct bolt-in. I asked about pushrods, valve stems, and everything else I have read here and he reassured me, put me on hold to verify with someone else, and came back with a resounding "no other mods are necessary, it's a direct bolt in...we've sold hundreds of these things...those 4.9's are a monster of an engine, aren't they?".

Scrabblegod- please let us know what you find out. The cam maker says it will work, maybe we could shave a hundreth or two (figuratively) off the top of the seal for good measure?? I plan on replacing the seals and the lifters along with the cam, it would be easy enough to do...

-Rick

10% horse and torque gain? wow....thats pritty awesome for 125$. So just one more time. Pop old cam out and put this one in and thats it? I have a really low km 4.9 in my car now so I'm sure she could handle the extra gain.

I know, it sounds unlikely, straight bolt in. Obviously you'd have to replace your lifters, intake gaskets, timing cover gasket, oil pan gasket, etc. But that's 27lbft and 20hp... with no other mods... that makes 220hp and 302lbft. That's more like it, eh??

I have had my cam for a few months now, but it was right at 90.00 with my old cam and a T-Shirt.
I sent him my old cam and 48 hours after he got it, he called for my credit card number and it was on its way back.
Total time round trip was about 9 days from Kentucky.
I have the .500 lift 282 duration cam and I will need different push rods to account for the smaller base circle on the cam.

Gene

Yeah, he mentioned something about this being a roller engine but I haven't had the time to look at my Helms manual to check it out. This swap just keeps getting cheaper by the minute!

.500 lift? That's going to run really well. Good luck with it!

[This message has been edited by GT (edited 02-01-2005).]

scrabblegod,
are the allante springs different from the 4.9 springs?

anyone,
and is there any proof that this will give you an extra 10%?
Thats seems like a lot. More than an allante intake swap would probably get you. or about the same. I'm just wondering if this is wishful thinking. Don't get me wrong, I hope its right. I have my engine stripped down as we speak.

[This message has been edited by collinwestphal (edited 02-01-2005).]

I will measure a standard 4.9 spring tomorrow, but that does not show differences in spring temper, material etc..

I will try to put both on a spring tester and see if there is infact a difference.

Don't think of the cam as an alternative to the intake, but as an addition.

I will not make guesses as to the improvement or lack of it.
I will wait until I put the car on a dyno and compare the results to prior readings. I hope we have a dyno run at the Fiero Factory Swap meet.

Gene

I was going for a slightly lopey idle with the cam regrind, so for me a little extra power is just an added bonus! Even if it's a 5% increase in reality it's still worth $90.00 to me. I believe the 5.0 Mustang guys get pretty good gains from cam swaps, so 10% isn't THAT far from possibility. But I would like to see some real numbers, not just cam company estimates.

In the mean time, anyone have a desktop dyno setup for the 4.9 that they could plug the new cam numbers into?

Stock numbers from the factory manual for the '92 4.9 are:

Valve Lift-
intake .384"
exhaust .396"

Duration-
intake 278*
exhaust 274*

Valve springs free length 49.5mm

[This message has been edited by GT (edited 02-01-2005).]

quote Originally posted by GT: I was going for a slightly lopey idle with the cam regrind, so for me a little extra power is just an added bonus! Even if it's a 5% increase in reality it's still worth $90.00 to me. I believe the 5.0 Mustang guys get pretty good gains from cam swaps, so 10% isn't THAT far from possibility. But I would like to see some real numbers, not just cam company estimates.

Although 10% is probably more than you actually get, it's not that much of a stretch to believe actually. That's only 20HP and we're talking about a V8 here. The 272 Crane cam gives the 2.8 V6 15 extra HP and that's a small 6 so 20 HP isn't a far cry from that. Also keep in mind that this cam could give more with other mods, like the Allante intake, being installed with it.

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Activities Director N.I.F.E.

www.fierofocus.com

[This message has been edited by Dave Gunsul (edited 02-02-2005).]

collinwestphal and scrabblegod- have either of you had any problem with the aluminum block head bolt holes stripping? I'd like to have my heads P&Ped but if thread stripping is a very real problem, I'd just as soon leave the heads on for now.

Thanks

I have not had any problem with the two motors I have torn down.
I have not removed the heads from the engine getting the new cam and heads, but I will in the next couple days.
I will let you know how it goes.

Gene

I just ordered my cam from Delta today. They have raised their prices, it is 125 plus the 40 dollar core charge. I just had them send me one, and I will send my old one back to them when I get the new one and they will credit my account.

As far as the head bolts go, just make sure you have a really long breaker bar, they are in there good. But they did come out easy once they were broken loose, and I will be sure to lube the bolts back up when they go back in.

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Used is such a harsh term. . . I perfer "Previously obsessed over" ;)

88 base coupe: Unvailing set for Middle of May, under some serious construction.
86 SE V-6 Turbo 4 speed: SOLD!

Wait. . . Did I just say I can't wait to do more work on my Fiero?. . .what, am I retarded?

"I've never been one to worry 'bout much, I just wanna laugh and love, I just wanna Live It Up!."

quote Originally posted by Racingman24: I just ordered my cam from Delta today. They have raised their prices, it is 125 plus the 40 dollar core charge. I just had them send me one, and I will send my old one back to them when I get the new one and they will credit my account. As far as the head bolts go, just make sure you have a really long breaker bar, they are in there good. But they did come out easy once they were broken loose, and I will be sure to lube the bolts back up when they go back in.

Ha, breaker bar. I used my POS 3/8" drive rachet. And yes, it was a PITA! My arms hurt the next day at work, which sucked for working on cars. I have one of my heads almost finished being ported and will work on the next one tomorrow/friday and next week. I didnt have any problem with the head bolt holes stripping.

Now I have to buy the gasket set so I can put the engine back together. Hopefully work picks up so I can afford it.

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Bottle Fed 4.9 V8 5 Speed
I drive way too fast to worry about cholesterol.

quote Originally posted by FieroMaster88: Ha, breaker bar. I used my POS 3/8" drive rachet. And yes, it was a PITA! My arms hurt the next day at work, which sucked for working on cars. I have one of my heads almost finished being ported and will work on the next one tomorrow/friday and next week. I didnt have any problem with the head bolt holes stripping. Now I have to buy the gasket set so I can put the engine back together. Hopefully work picks up so I can afford it.

With my old 4.5 it was a major pita to break those lose Except for the ones that run in the oil gulley... Anyway I will be picking my other 4.9 up tommorrow... I will take pics on my buildup on this engine.... Depending on the condition of this 4.9 im getting I might pull the crankshaft and get her balance, And im defaintly ordering a delta cam and rebuilding the top end of this, Then take my time in doing the porting of the heads and probally send my manifold to MTA for some mods.

I already have my turbo sitting in the garage and still need to get a intercooler.

Anyway everyone that is tearing down the 4.9 and porting keep us updated, And I will do the same here with mine... We can help each other If you guys have the tools to remove the valve springs... I would go with redoing the valves and springs.

Not too long there was a set of brandnew 4.9 heads on ebay for $150 that I missed out on getting And if you guys can still find I would replace the alluminum rocker bridges with the steel ones.... I think the allanta engines used the steel instead of the alluminum.... There alot stronger then the alluminum.

Btw thanks GT for the heads up on the cam + for you

[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 02-03-2005).]

Thanks Racingman24. That's good to know about the cam price. Still not too expensive for 10% gains. I had to use a breaker bar on my 3.4TDC head bolts as well.

Well, I got my $450 e-bay 4.9 yesterday. It finally arrived from Illinois. It's supposed to have 90,000 miles on it. It looks clean inside the valve covers, but it's probably because all the oil is OUTSIDE the engine! I guess it looks pretty bad too because of the harsh northern winters. Plus, either the car was hit in the front or they were REALLY not careful with it. The distributor cap is busted, the cruise control module is busted, the harmonic balancer has a couple of chips in it, a pulley is bent, and a few other parts are broken or missing as well. So for peace of mind I'm going to have to strip it down, put all new bearings in it, check the rings and sleeves, P&P the heads and basically just really clean and powdercoat everything...oh yeah and THEN put the new cam in it.

Fieromaster88-Nice car on your website. I got to drive a 4.9 with the auto the other day. I wasn't able to fully test it beacuse the guy that was nice enough to let me drive it was in the car with me! But I'm hoping the 5-speed and the extra engine work I'm doing to mine will wake it up some.

[This message has been edited by GT (edited 02-03-2005).]

Whenever I let anyone drive my car, I usualy tell them they were to easy on it.
The way I drive it every day, short of running into something, they could do no damage to it in a short spirited test drive.

That is one thing I love about this swap. Cheap to build, cold stone reliable and a blast to drive.

Gene

how much work is it to change the camshaft when you already have the engine stripped apart? in core form.

I wouldnt mind doing this, but I also want this thing back together by april fools day.

And if the specs on there cam are pushing it right to the limit, that gets me worried.
These cams may be working on a stock 4.9 with auto that only revs to 4500 or so, but what about a stickshift that revs to 5500? The valves might float too much and cause problems with the clearances.

Plus Fastjeff said he didn't feel any noticable gains from a cam change. I'm not sure on the specs of his but they must have been close to these. Just trying to make sure this is worth the effort.

Not sure which cam Jeff used or how restrctive his exhaust is or if he had the wiring harness with the mistake or what. Delta does make a stock replacement cam. Maybe that's what he got? I dunno...

How far disassembled is your engine? Are the heads off? Is the timing gear and chain still on? According to the factory manual, it just looks like you align the timing marks on the chain gears, remove the keeper, the cam gear bolt, the gear and chain, and then slide the cam forward CAREFULLY trying not to nick the bearings. Put a bolt in a hole in the front of the cam to use it as a handle. Assembly is reverse of installation. Use plenty of assembly lube on the cam journals.

-Rick

[This message has been edited by GT (edited 02-05-2005).]

I've got valve covers off, oil pan off, and all accessories off the top. I'm also swapping lower intakes, and installing some steel rocker supports at the same time. I have never removed the heads on this engine. Do you have to remove them to get the camshaft out? I really don't want to mess with that.

Removing the heads really isn't all that scary. It just takes a really big breaker bar. And if you have the thing apart, it sure wouldn't be a bad idea, in fact, it would be a very good idea to put new head gaskets in it. But to answer your question, No. Since these heads are shapped really wierd, the pushrods come through the intake. But you do still have to take the lifters out. My Caddy Shop Manual says there is a special tool for that, but I'm not sure what would be so special about a magnet? Maybe I'll find out when I get my cam on Monday.

Eric

Keep in mind I've never worked on a 4.9 yet, but I have cammed many SBCs and you shouldn't have to remove the heads. After you remove the intake manifold, loosen the rockers enough to turn them to the side, pull the pushrods out (label them as to which lifter they go to), remove the lifters (label them as to where they go), and the cam should pull out through the front. I've used a tool for lifter removal before but it was only indicated for lifters that had excessive carbon buildup on the sides that wouldn't pull up through the bores with my fingers. If you pull the cam out with the lifters still in place, they can fall onto the cam and make it impossible to pull the cam out, OR they can fall into your block and have to be removed through the oil pan... yup found that out the hard way on a V8 Monza with the engine still in the car many moons ago...

[This message has been edited by GT (edited 02-05-2005).]

Damn you guys are making me wish I knew how to do this to mine Hopefully a certain 4.9 w/turbo will still eb for sale whne I have enough cash for it

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100% USDA Certified
1988 GT Black W/Beechwood Interior & 17" ADR Battle Exe's
Want a 4.9 Installed into your Fiero? PBJ can do it!
My ¼ mile time.
The Cadero Registry.

TTT

Has anyone actually put one of these in their ride? Do they make much of a difference?

Do any of you guys think that this is really worth it?

Jeff

I am putting mine in now and will give seat of the butt and real dragstrip numbers in 3 or 4 weeks.
I will also post before and after dyno sheets at the end of April.

Gene

opps

[This message has been edited by Fieroking (edited 02-25-2005).]

Any more news onACTUAL #'s..??

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Choptytopped WideBody GT 1 of 1
4.9L-V8-Auto---almost finished

Of the stock 4.9 heads I measured, the spring retainers will hit the valve seals at less than .450 lift. A simple tool is available to cut the valve guides down using a hand drill.

The big issue with the head bolts is not taking them off. The problem is when you put them back on and the threads in the block strip when you torque them. It requires some special expensive tools to repair the block after you strip the threads.

You don't need a special tool to remove the lifters unless you don't have fingers. There is no need to replace the lifters unless they are worn out.

quote Originally posted by NotAFieroAnyLonger: Any more news on ACTUAL #'s..??

I was meaning Dyno Numbers... -

quote Originally posted by scrabblegod: I have had my cam for a few months now, but it was right at 90.00 with my old cam and a T-Shirt. I sent him my old cam and 48 hours after he got it, he called for my credit card number and it was on its way back. Total time round trip was about 9 days from Kentucky. I have the .500 lift 282 duration cam and I will need different push rods to account for the smaller base circle on the cam. Gene

how does that cam run with the caddy ecm, gene? instead of different push rods, you could always increase the slot length so the rockers fulcrum tilts down more..thast what they did with the asg cam..

Has anyone been able to drive their cars with the Delta cam over the summer? Does it make a significant difference?

-Rick

I've got a Delta Cam in mine, have since I've had it together, so I can't comment on before and after, but I can tell you that it seems to work just fine without modification. Also, it does give it a noticable "lope" at idle.

Aside from the fact that that much noise shouldn't be coming from such a little car, it's also fun when the engine lopes like a badass. It really, really confuses people that don't know.

Eric

Thanks Eric, that's good to know. I finally started ripping my 2.8 out this morning... here goes nothin'...

I'm not exactly sure about how or exactly what is being done regarding the rocker fulcrum adjustment that is being suggested as an alternative to shorter push rods to accomodate the base circle reduction on the cam, but if the end result is lowering the push rod end of the rocker to take up the slack wouldn't that result in increased valve lift in a situation where there is already a concern mentioned about clearance? Maybe I'm imagining incorrectly but at maximum valve lift performing that maneuver would require something to give, if you keep the push rod length the same, and move the fulcrum pivot area downward either the lifter plunge debt will sink further in the bore or the valve will have to open more. I'm curious because I have only been in proximity to the 4.9 briefly and not long enough to know exactly what was being described but have some idea of geometry in how it relates to the topic.