Well, bring on the flames, but I have had the motor for months and finally got my custom pistons from Wiseco in, I will be using a 3.2L v6 from a 93 ford taurus SHO, the car is slated for twin turbos on 10.5:1 compression and I will be using a tranny from a 99 Dodge Neon MTX, talk about a crapload of work. The car will run off of a Mega Squirt ECU with the engine converted to Ford EDIS 6 with a speed density Setup, The turbos will be 14b turbos from 1st gen DSMs, Boost will be 10psi on Street gass and 15psi on race, I will need to make a few custom things.....first the motor mounts, angle iron and a welder...easy, second tranny and flywheel adapter plate...machine shop here I come, then some custom axles from cv unlimited, then I'm pretty much ready to roll except for fabbing the turbo system....which wont be a problem

Wow! Thats one heck of a project! Good luck and post lots of pictures!

Talk about the B Child of Satan.

WOW this will be a cool build if you do it. I am sure you will get Flames to challange hells fury on this one, but I cant wait to see it if it works. Many Many People are going to tell you to just use a 3800 or a 3.4 DOHC motor. Becuase arguably the 3.4 DOHC was just as good of a motor. Just not as TIGHT as the the stock SHO motor. (yes they were cool motors)

Well I will book mark this thread and come back often.

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85GT 4spd MSD Everything, Big Cam and Nitrous. www.captfiero.com

Complete sacrilege putting a FORD (Fixed Or Repaired Daily) into a GM classic. Oh, I forget myself it's our cars that need all the fixing.

Anyway have fun doing it and good luck. As posted previously have a lot of pics.

Well, two popular swaps are from Cadillac and one from Buick, plus all the Chevrolet swaps, so a Ford engine (actually, a Yamaha engine!) isn't that far out of bounds.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by wicked93gs: Well, bring on the flames, but I have had the motor for months and finally got my custom pistons from Wiseco in, I will be using a 3.2L v6 from a 93 ford taurus SHO, the car is slated for twin turbos on 10.5:1 compression and I will be using a tranny from a 99 Dodge Neon MTX, talk about a crapload of work. The car will run off of a Mega Squirt ECU with the engine converted to Ford EDIS 6 with a speed density Setup, The turbos will be 14b turbos from 1st gen DSMs, Boost will be 10psi on Street gass and 15psi on race, I will need to make a few custom things.....first the motor mounts, angle iron and a welder...easy, second tranny and flywheel adapter plate...machine shop here I come, then some custom axles from cv unlimited, then I'm pretty much ready to roll except for fabbing the turbo system....which wont be a problem

Sounds like a fun project. Wish you the best of luck.

May I ask a question? If you were having custom pistons made, why such a high CR when you're planning to turbocharge it?

Nate

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My Web page | The Turbo Super Duty Build.
You know that little voice that says it can't be done? I duct-taped mine's mouth shut and pushed it down a flight of stairs.

quote Originally posted by wicked93gs: Well, bring on the flames, but I have had the motor for months and finally got my custom pistons from Wiseco in, I will be using a 3.2L v6 from a 93 ford taurus SHO, the car is slated for twin turbos on 10.5:1 compression and I will be using a tranny from a 99 Dodge Neon MTX, talk about a crapload of work. The car will run off of a Mega Squirt ECU with the engine converted to Ford EDIS 6 with a speed density Setup, The turbos will be 14b turbos from 1st gen DSMs, Boost will be 10psi on Street gass and 15psi on race, I will need to make a few custom things.....first the motor mounts, angle iron and a welder...easy, second tranny and flywheel adapter plate...machine shop here I come, then some custom axles from cv unlimited, then I'm pretty much ready to roll except for fabbing the turbo system....which wont be a problem

Sounds interesting. There is a guy in the Bakersfield area that was putting an SHO eng/trans in his Fiero GT. Looked like a natural. I'm not so sure about boosting an engine that is already 10.5:1 compression. Turbo engines are typically lower CR.

Anyhow, if I can make a suggestion, don't use the 99 Neon trans. They are only rated for 135# torque. The later Neon trans (2001+) are rated for 165# torque. ...and the later trans uses a hydraulic clutch assembly. See: http://www.neons.org/forumdodge/trans.htm

The mtx behind the SRT-4 is different from all of the others... supposedly much stronger than the others (although I can't seem to find a specific reference). Which brings me to my final point. Even though I like the SHO (Yamaha?) engine, I'm not sure that I wouldn't just pick up a complete Neon SRT-4 engine/trans. There are already a lot of aftermarket goodies for this package.

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FierOmar

heh, another beef of mine, people always saying you cant boost high compression, no its really not going to be a problem, I want the off boost response as well, I have a full standalone(MegaSquirt) I will be using on it, so I will have minute fuel control at any RPM/MAP point I need and most of the time I wont be boosting as high as 10psi anyway, more like 7 for daily driving, but mainly I want this to a be fun street car, not an insane 600hp strip warrior, will post pics as it comes along, will start tearing the motor down now that I have the pistons, then its off to the machine shop, as for the neon tranny, yes its rated at 130, but has been proven to hold 400+ seen hahn racecrafts website if you dont believe me, much better than the SHO tranny which consistently kills its trannies at anything over 300, the 2001 up tranny is a better choice though I agree, but I'm getting a 99 for free, so...

[This message has been edited by wicked93gs (edited 05-05-2005).]

i think this is going to be a pretty cool thread, definitely bookmarked.

on a side note and not to move too far off topic but does anyone know if this yamaha block is anything like the yamaha block in the new Volvo XC90 v8?

I wouldn't have a problem if it were a Ford engine...but its a Japanese product. Don't be surprised when your superior Japanese powerplant goes dead on you for no reason. Do you know what I'm talking about? I hope so.

Edit: Wait....the engines from 96 on could be different. Those are the problem engines.
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[This message has been edited by Key Of David (edited 05-05-2005).]

to clear up a few things, the 96 up motors have a reason, and they can be repaired. mine has been.

secondly, the volvo motor is rumored to be the SAME thing as the 3.4 v8 found in my and others' v8 sho's. (with obvious displacement differences cause its a 4.4 and mine is 3.4)

the v6 motors were tested at the factory at something like 12,000 rpm for a day or something like that. lets see a 3.4 tdc do that for a day from the factory! can we say roached rod bearings?

i have no knowledge of the transmission in the v6 dying on itself, but i can say that it would be a ***** to use anyway. cable actuated clutch and some of them had a rod shifter, which would make it more of a ***** to convert anyway.

i say make an adapter or use the getrag 6 speed from the focus svt.....

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Brandon Edmonds

1996 Taurus SHO (my baby)
1986 Ford EXP (goin bye-bye soon hopefully)
1986 Fiero (to be my street rocket)
1977 yamaha xs750-2D (in pieces right now, doesnt appear that it will be done for summer, unfortunately)

that will be awesome!!! dont listen to any of these people talkin trash about ford! they aint my favorite either BUT YAMAHA knows how to build motors!! i had a sho and loved it! put a good clutch in it cuz they like to eat clutches. i never had any trouble with sho motor. that big 4door would beat alot of mustangs and z28's!! good luck and once you get it all sorted out..that will be ONE BAD ASS CAR!!!

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Keith
Topsail Beach,NC
86&87 Fiero GT
86&96 Corvette
04 HD Softail
73 Lotus Europa TC
86 Lotus Turbo Esprit

No flames from my end at all. More power to you! I'm all about getting performance and that should be a helluva runner. Make sure you document it well! You never know when you might want to come back to the information to pick up a tidbit here or there...

quote Originally posted by stalen88GT: Oh, I forget myself it's our cars that need all the fixing.

I never can figure out why people say things like this. I never need to fix things on my Fieros. All three have been extremely reliable but I am very anal about maintenance so maybe that's why. <shrugs>

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quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: I never can figure out why people say things like this. I never need to fix things on my Fieros. All three have been extremely reliable but I am very anal about maintenance so maybe that's why. <shrugs>

yeah , all my fieros have been reliable untill I started moding them - the mods were essentially incomplete because they caused things to break - when doing any performance mod you have to take into account everything it affects and upgrade that aswell or expect stuff to fail

and then there are the little things like a burned out a/c flap servo - big F-ing deal its 20 years old and needs replacing is that really a reliability problem?

[This message has been edited by Kohburn (edited 05-05-2005).]

quote Originally posted by wicked93gs: heh, another beef of mine, people always saying you cant boost high compression, no its really not going to be a problem,

Didn't say it couldn't be done, but even relatively modest boost to a high compression engine could lead to detonation (high octane fuel and/or water injection might help). Detonation can be hard on the pistons.

quote Originally posted by wicked93gs: As for the neon tranny, yes its rated at 130, but has been proven to hold 400+ seen hahn racecrafts website if you dont believe me, much better than the SHO tranny which consistently kills its trannies at anything over 300, the 2001 up tranny is a better choice though I agree, but I'm getting a 99 for free, so...

By the time you convert the trans from cable to hydraulic you would probably be ahead with the later trans. BTW, I purchased an 01 Magnum trans for one of my Neon projects (in addition to being stronger, I liked the gear splits better). I will be converting it to a cable bellhousing... so I will have an extra hydraulic bellhousing available.

Another nice thing about the Neon trans... Quaiffe is readilly available. Oh yeah, the latest SRT-4 trans comes equipped with a Quaiffe.

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FierOmar

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: and then there are the little things like a burned out a/c flap servo - big F-ing deal its 20 years old and needs replacing is that really a reliability problem?

Nope

Back to the topic, I look forward to seeing this builds progress. So take lot of pics and post them. Good luck and have fun.

I'd really like ot see how this turns out - an engine that will gladly rev to 10K

I have one thing to say

git-r-dun!!!

With 10.5 compression with 10 PSI you will need race gas to daily drive it. 7 psi make it like 13.5 comp, and 10 psi would be something like 14.1

I would highly advise aginst turboing that high of compression unless you have 1500cc injectors with your megasquirt with a huge fuel pump.

[This message has been edited by bigjoe25 (edited 05-05-2005).]

I don't see 10 lbs of boost in a 10.5 to 1 motor either unless you are cooling the hell out of the intake charge and running alcohol injection. GM did it with an ecotec and got a lot of horsepower from relatively little boost. Tuning is gonna be a nightmare to get right. Take lots of pics, we want to see

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Notchies rule, fastbacks drool

I agree...if you're going to do it....10 lbs of boost on a 10.5 compression motor, not to mention its been detuned from the factory and you need to work around that to get more reliability out of it (so it doesnt blow up)...you are asking for trouble. Leave it like it is or tune it back to Japanese specs (300 hp?).

You know these engines (detuned) only last about 200,000 miles don't you?

heh, I know the motor is one of the most high maitenence motors ever made, but its a weekend car, I thought about the tranny from an SVT focus but came up with 2 problems, 1 they cost a ton...and 2 they are as bad as the SHO tranny when it comes to strength, the 6th gear would be nice...if GM hurries witht their new 6 speed I will probably end up swapping to one at some point, as for high compression and boost...I'm not getting into that....and 6 1500cc injectors? what are you smoking, thats enough for like 1000HP(42lbers are sufficient for my power goals), I mean you have to realize people boost stock compression SHOs all the time(9.8:1) its not much more of a stretch for .7 of a compression point, I have seen stock SHOs take 15psi and some SHO people theorize it could take 20, never seen that though. Now for the tranny, I want to convert to a cable clutch design(I read you guy's nightmares about the hydraulic unit) I dont much mind a little extra pedal pressure for more reliability, the engine will be intercooled with a HUGE I/C because the Fiero has a convienent sized trunk, I will convert the wing into a scoop and add a CO2 sprayer kit, I'm thinking I will have to relocate/do something custom with the back up lights because once I convert the trunk into an I/C compartment the air will need to go somewhere and its either relocate the backup lights and cut vents or cut the floor of the trunk out(but theres too much hot air that would let in from the mufflers and exhaust piping) I'm open to ideas as this goes along, I need a month or so to finish the engine build before I can really start work though(the SHO has a TON of gaskets I have to buy, machine work isnt cheap to the extent this engine is getting prepped either)

grab air from under the car and put vents in your decklid to let it out.

Sounds like a very interesting project.

Why not use a Northstar? The 2000+ N*s have forged cranks and rods from factory, huge main and rod bearings, roller cams and have 300hp stock with 10.3-1 on 87 octane.

Stick a suited turbo on a N* , 5-7psi and you would be well over 400hp. The N* would be 10X easier to install than the yamaha and you can use fiero tranis. Lots of aftermarket for N*s also available at www.chrfab.com Their turbo engines start at 600hp and they have made up to 2500hp on a N*, says something about the strength of the motor.

I understand the cool factor of doing something different, but using a ford motor with dodge ecm and trani with twin turbos on high compression sounds like a nightmare.

Edit to add. The fiero is a light enough car that even with low compression pistons on the sho motor won't affect drivability. One of the benefits of a turbo motor is it behaves nicely and gets decent fuel economy when not on boost. Having high compression with boost is a bad combination and you are are going to have to be overly conservative with boost levels. It only takes a few preignitions to melt piston and you will be prone. If you are building the motor for a turbo, do it right. Anywhere from 8.5 or 9-1 compression will offer nice drivability and you can crank the psi when you feel like it instead of constantly worrying. Don't worry about loosing power when not on boost, the sho motor will still spin the tires off the line in 1st gear before you build boost.

Only cars I know of that have high compression and turbos are imports that bolt on a turbo kit. Its not the way to go, they just havn't spent the money on low compression forged pistons.

[This message has been edited by crzyone (edited 05-07-2005).]

We have already seen the rise of the Cadero--is this going to be called the Fordero?

see? this is why I didnt want to post a build thread yet, yes I want to be different, leave it at that, I know how to tune so I'm not afraid of detonation, these are forged wisecos that can stand a good amount of abuse, not that there will be any when I'm finished, heh, I want to be the only SHO Fiero out there, or at least the only TT SHO Fiero, as for the pistons...I have already got a low compression turbo motor in my neon, its great but this is a project car, the SHO motor I think is a world class motor as good as say a skyline or a supra motor, and with 10.5:1 compression and no boost it will probably produce close the the N* power anyway(around 280 well tuned, after I tune a more agressive ignition map while the car is out of boost, to be retarded if it boosts more than a few psi), in a lighter package, but pistons and motor choice are a moot point since I already have both they are what I will be using, I will probably be switching trannies down the road to the new GM 6 speed, but the neon one will be sufficient for now, I'll also put a powered by ford liscense plate frame on to piss people off....he he

Don't get defensive. I'm not bashing your idea, but I still don't understand what you mean to acomplish with high compression and boost. You will have to worry about detonation, forged pistons are strong but not indestructable.

The neon trani probibly won't be any stronger than a munci 4 speed or 5 speed getrag in a mid engine application. In a mid engine car you get alot more stress on the transmission because of its superior traction. A fiero is very capable of 1.7-1.8 60' times on street tires. The neon transaxel seems stronger because in a fwd it has less stress in the lower gears due to tire spin. A fiero is also heavier than a neon, my wifes neon is around 2400-2500lbs and my fiero is around 2800 which will also add stress to the trani.

I've seen the hahn's website before, my wife has a 95 neon and I was going to throw a turbo on it. Their cars are impressive to say the least. I've been in a 430rwhp fiero with a 406 sbc with around 500lb/ft of torque. The car had 260 rear tires and it was able to powerslide in the first 3 gears. He is running a Getrag transmission and it holds up to the engine amazingly. There are other high hp sbc guys here with Getrags that stand up to the abuse they throw at them as well.

Moral of the story, I would stick a fiero Getrag in your car if it didn't already have one and use that. You will save yourself a bunch of trouble getting cv's made, mounting a slave, figuring out shift cables, etc etc. All you need with a getrag is an adapter plate and figure out what you will use for a flywheel.

I think a TT sho motor sounds cool. Just not sure about the neon trani holding up to 400hp in a mid engine car.

sorry, didnt mean to be that defensive, he he, lets just say I'm building the car for the hell of it, I would consider the getrags as well, but frankly it would be just as difficult to use one as a neon tranny, I'm going to have to relocate everthing on the engine cradle anyway(its a tight squeeze from all my measurments) so I would end up with custom axles anyway, the neon tranny though has some advantages 1. I like the gear ratios better(other people may not) 2. More aftermarket parts available for it(more clutch options, Quaiffe LSD at a decent price, etc) 3.I'm using a chevy chasis, and a ford engine, why not use the dodge tranny? I think your right about the fact that the car being heavier will stress the tranny more(my neon weighs in at 2200lbs curb weight) But I hope to do enough weight reduction on the fiero to minimize the difference(fiberglass or CF hood skin, removal of all PS and A/C stuff, back glass replacement by lexan,whatever other possible weight reduction I can think of)

quote Originally posted by wicked93gs: the SHO motor I think is a world class motor as good as say a skyline or a supra motor, and with 10.5:1 compression and no boost it will probably produce close the the N* power anyway(around 280 well tuned...), in a lighter package,

How much HP have people gotten from this engine? While it may be a very good design, I'll hold off comparing it to the RB26 or 2JZ until someone gets equivalent power out of it. A best engineered design isn't always the one that makes the most power. I have no doubt that it's a very nice engine... it's just built differently.
Isn't the SHO engine iron block?

yes its iron block....the stock motor is supposedly capable of 500HP on the stock block, I know for a fact there a couple guys running over 650HP on it, but this motor will never be as souped up as something like a skyline or s supra one for the simple fact that its discontinued, parts are hard to come by and its probably the highest maitenence motor ever made, you though the main reason that skyline and supra motors have been taken to such extremes is simply because they were turbo to start with, the SHO never was, I am personally aiming at 500 myself, which I could have done on the stock engine...maybe, but I always rebuild my motors before swapping and thought I might as well bump the compression a bit, but in any case its not the HP capability alone that makes it so good....its a v6 that people spin up to 9k RPM all the time(I'll be limiting mine to 7500 because I want the water pump to last more than 10k miles) but anyway I will start posting pics as soon I start the engine build proper, to go from there

quote Originally posted by maryjane: We have already seen the rise of the Cadero--is this going to be called the Fordero?

Nah! SHierO

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FierOmar

10.5:1 CR + 10 psi boost + "street gas" =

Seriously ... I'm not trying to discourage you, but you do need a reality check.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 05-08-2005).]

is that with a full standalone with total fuel and timing control? thats what I thought, like I said, moot point its what I'm using, I know what I'm doing, tell that to honda guys who run 18psi on 10.5:1 pistons, or better yet, read what corky bell has to say on the subject, maximum boost ISBN# 0-8376-0160-6, but to be on the safe side I may drop it to 7psi street and 10psi race, the piston there may very well have been from a non-intercooled application, or a low efficiency intercooler, that picture proves absolutely nothing without knowing the context, IE what engine was it? what I/C efficiency?, was there an intercooler? was it running stock timing as boost pressure increased? were the spark plugs stock? hotter? colder? was water injection being used? was nitrous? what was the CFM flow of the heads? how was fuel being controlled? sure if I throw 10.5:1 slugs in a stock fiero engine and use something like a RRFPR to control fuel I'm sure the pistons would look like that

[This message has been edited by wicked93gs (edited 05-08-2005).]

quote Originally posted by FierOmar: Nah! SHierO

Seconded.

Two 14B's on that engine is going to be overkill and you may just end up with a lot of lag and limited rpms of usable power. 14B's would be great if you plan to run 25 psi on race gas. There are guys in my other car club that do exactly that on a 3.0 Mitsu engine with great results. But that is done with a 8.0:1 CR. With a 10.5:1 CR, you may end up with too much knock even on race gas if you try. The NA guys that converted to twin turbo on the 3S platform have great results with just the stock 9B turbos. They have a 10:1 CR and can't go past 5 psi w/o intercooling and 10 psi with.

If you are going to have a 10.5:1 CR then you might as well go with a smaller turbo that will spool faster. Otherwise, you are just wasting time as you wait for the turbos to spool and then the waste gates will open a second later when you hit your boost limit. The true potential for those turbos will never be realized but all the turbo lag drawbacks will be there.

au contraire, the 14bs are most efficient in the 7-12psi range...I'm not so much worried about spool time(since it will be 10.5:1 after all) I'm more worried about any smaller of a turbo choking the engine at 7500RPM, I mean look at VW turbos....great low and mid range....but they choke the motor at high RPM, I would rather have great mid-high end response, after all, wheelspin is a bad thing...which is why I run a 20g in my neon, it seems though my engine choice and compression ratios are unpopular, I'll do it anyway though...if I blow up my engine, great! If I dont I'll be back to rub it in...he he

It's not about what's controlling the engine, it's about thermodynamics, and physics. The guys here are just trying to help by telling you what most of them have already experienced. The engine swap idea no matter what it is as far as I am concerned is always commendable to me because it is an effort to pioneer and create something different. I have turboed several engines and read the books governing it. You are going to use a lot more race fuel than you think, 10psi and 10:1 compression together or 10.5:1 is going to do what it's going to do and although I hope it works I must reiterate the warnings of others; you are asking for trouble. If I recall correctly the the Porche 911 twin turbo runs 11psi and 9:1 compression on an aluminum engine that's built to be boosted. You have done a wise thing by posting to get feed back that will help you whether you like what you are reading or not. Sounds to me that you can get a lot of power from it by maximizing it's naturally aspirated potential, but the heat that the high compression is going to generate in addition to what the heat added to the compressed air is going to produce is going to produce detonation at somepoint much sooner than what you are anticipating. Forget about the people on this board long enough to go talk to some performance engine builders and ask for their honest non optimistic oppinion before you risk being sorry within minutes of completeing your project.
I wish you success and personally I would like the sound of a ford 302 in my Fiero, you just can't deny how sweet the tuned exhaust on a mustang 302 sounds.

Nobody ever accomplished anything by listening to others. Do what you want, have fun and take lots of pictures. Anybody can follow, few can lead. Blaze a trail for the rest of us. Whether you succeed or fail, you will be happy knowing you tried.

Now, enough of the pep talk. Get busy!

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1986 SE 350 V8

quote Originally posted by tesmith66: Nobody ever accomplished anything by listening to others. Do what you want, have fun and take lots of pictures. Anybody can follow, few can lead. Blaze a trail for the rest of us. Whether you succeed or fail, you will be happy knowing you tried.

Yeah, nothing was ever accomplished by people working together...

Well, what I tried to say was don't let the naysayers (who have never tried it) talk you out of it.

How's that?