After going over many swap threads (and my bank account), I have come to the conclusion that I will only be able to do a 3.4 swap. As much as I would like to do a V8 swap, cost always seems to creep in and ruin my dreams. Even a 4.9 swap that is supposed to be fairly inexpensive and simple, starts out cheap, but then you add all the million other little thinks you have to do. Next thing you know it's $3000 or more. That may not be a lot for most people but it is for me. As much as I love the knowledge base here, I don't want to get into the "fancy mods" that will make this cost more than it should. Dennis LaGrua's car is fantastic and one day I hope to build up to that type of performace. But for right now, just the basics.
The questions are: How much more fun is it to drive the 3.4 vs. the 2.8? Is it noticeable? Is gas mileage better? What other benefits comes with it?
What I keep hearing is that all that needs to be done is to switch all of the top end parts from the 2.8 to the 3.4 and relocate the starter. Is that it? Is that all that HAS to be done? The other mods like intake, porting and polishing, exhaust system, turbo, cams, and all that can be done later as money becomes available. I just want to know if anyone simply dropped in the 3.4, relocated the starter, and drove off with no other modifications NEEDED. Now if there are some small items the are NEEDED to complete the swap and have the car run, I will do it. Who has a BASIC install that does not include all the extra stuff that will run the price up? If I remeber correctly, the 3.4 would come from a 93-95 Camaro. Now should I look for an engine block (long or short) or get a whole engine. I need to know exactly what I need to buy and what I will be switching over to make this happen.
Thanks in advance.
------------------ BLADE '86SE Engine rblt by Jasper Hypertech Chip Low-temp Fan Switch Low-temp Thermostat Grand Am rear brakes 215/45-17 front, 235/45-17 rear Falken Ziex ZE-502 Kenwood D-Mask Head Unit Kenwood 859 5-ch Amp Pioneer 4x10 Kenwood 4x6 plates Rockford Fosgate 10" HE-2
[This message has been edited by Blade_69 (edited 05-19-2005).]
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04:46 PM
PFF
System Bot
netpro55 Member
Posts: 761 From: pittsburgh PA usa Registered: Nov 2004
I think the big difference in the 3.4L Pushrod is the torque. I think it has alot more torque, torque is what gets a car moving, so you will notice alot more grunt down low. I dont think fuel mileage would change too much, probably go down a MPG or so.
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08:27 PM
Saxman Member
Posts: 5151 From: Melbourne, FL Registered: May 2005
So, what are the actual hp/torque differences between the stock 2.8 and the installed 3.4? This sounds like something even I could do with some help from the club members here in Southern Maryland...
Thanks for the detailed instructions!
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08:56 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15727 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
As a 3.4L Fiero owner, I will tell you that this engine has potential but unless it is modified and/or boosted, don't expect a dramatic power increase. Stock this engine puts out about 160 HP and a bit more torque. With the right mods 200 Hp is possible, with a turbo 300 HP or more depending on the way the engine is built and how much boost you care (dare) to use
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09:07 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41113 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Picture the difference between an automatic 2.8 and a manual 2.8. You'll get about that much more "oomph" out of a 3.4. The low end torque is what makes the difference. It's a lot more fun to drive, but it just sucks wind at anything much above 4500-5K.
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09:45 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
It's only about a 20-25HP gain over a stock 2.8. I consider it a good replacement for the 2.8, rather than rebuilding or putting in another 2.8. It also has some decent mod potential with cam, head porting, etc. Same potential as the 2.8, but with more cubes you get a little better return on investment.
I wouldn't take out a good running 2.8 to put in a 3.4, though. You could start doing stuff to the 2.8 that could eventually be put on a 3.4. Port the intake, port the heads, 1.6 rockers and/or cam swap, headers, etc. All these things will help the 2.8, and could be moved over to the 3.4 when you're ready (except for the cam, of course).
I wouldn't expect more than 180 - 200HP max out of a 3.4 using the stock Fiero intake setup, and 200 HP is optimistic.
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10:56 PM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
On a best case scenario it is a 15% improvement over the 2.8. You can feel it but if your swap takes 6 months without driving the 2.8 you will feel less. If you use an used engine and spend less than $1000 on it I would say it is worthwhile. Otherwise wait and do a V8. I spent over $4k on mine and wasn't fully satisfied with just 149rwhp. Three years later I went and did it right and did the V8
Jusr a note; You do not want to disconnect the A/C lines, which opens up the A/C system. You want to take and unmount the compressor from the engine and hang it off to the side. If you open up your A/C system, first you will discharge the refrigerant to the atmosphere (illegal) and you will probably have to convert the system from R12 to R134a. This could cost $1K if you need to replace the compressor, accumulator, orifice valve, O rings, Oil and Refrigerant, and do most of the labor yourself.
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07:57 AM
ditch Member
Posts: 3780 From: Brookston, IN Registered: Mar 2003
This could cost $1K if you need to replace the compressor, accumulator, orifice valve, O rings, Oil and Refrigerant, and do most of the labor yourself.
$1000 for conversion is way high,
compressor can be had fairly cheap...R12 or R134, rebuilt:
all the seals and stuff can be bought cheaply in a conversion kit
Now to the 2.8 vs. 3.4 topic. If you're going to do the swap, my advice would be to build up the 3.4 a bit before installing it. A bigger cam, port the exhaust manifolds, bore throttle body (darrell morse). Anything you can afford to do basically. I have a 3.4 but it has been built up quite a bit so it's not a good comparison. If you're ever down this way contact me and I'll take you for a spin so you can see the motors potential.
You might be better off just rebuilding your old 2.8 and modding it...unless you can get a decent mileage 3.4 fairly cheap. Rebuilding a 2.8 is cheap.
Dave
[This message has been edited by ditch (edited 05-20-2005).]
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10:31 AM
PFF
System Bot
netpro55 Member
Posts: 761 From: pittsburgh PA usa Registered: Nov 2004
So, what are the actual hp/torque differences between the stock 2.8 and the installed 3.4? This sounds like something even I could do with some help from the club members here in Southern Maryland...
Thanks for the detailed instructions!
no problemo, THANK -*-*SOLO2*-*- FOR THIS WRITE UP
[This message has been edited by netpro55 (edited 05-20-2005).]
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10:58 AM
LZeitgeist Member
Posts: 5662 From: Raleigh, NC, U.S.A. Registered: Dec 2000
I think the big difference in the 3.4L Pushrod is the torque. I think it has alot more torque, torque is what gets a car moving, so you will notice alot more grunt down low. I dont think fuel mileage would change too much, probably go down a MPG or so.
I agree...torque was the biggest gain on my 2.8 to 3.4 conversion on my bird! Sounds better too...more volume out the tail pipes!
I went with a 3.4 GM Crate engine instead of finding an old Camaro or Firebird engine. I'm sure you read above somewhere that depending on what car you have you might need some custom brackets for stuff like motor mounts and A/C. Anyway, for the most part what all these guys have said is true. I was able to dyno mine on a chassis dyno about a 1000 miles after mine got installed. At the wheels it was 137.4 HP @ 4200 and 192.1 lbs/ft of torque @ 3200. Thought the horsepower didn't increase very much, the torque is incredible with this little guy. Now, there is a posibility that my converter was partially clogged when I dynoed this. I have recently deleted my converter completely. I've been driving on a really clogged converter for the last month or so, so it has dulled my senses of if it's better than when I first got my engine put in or not. So I have plans on throwing it back on a dyno to find out. Anyway, I don't know if someone mentioned it above or not, but supposively you need to either throw an adjustable fuel pressure regulator or add higher flow injectors if your gonna do it. I actually went with both, but I don't really think it made much of a difference. I think you can still run on the stock injectors at stock pressure and be just fine. I use my car for autocrossing, and all that extra torque is perfect for it. I can accelerate out of the slow turn arounds in 2nd gear and still slip the rear tires out alittle. And also with a decent clutch, I was able to get my car to 60 in only 6.2 seconds. So really, if your on a budget, 3.4 is the way to go. There is so much potential to get gobs of horsepower out of that engine as well. Remember, these dyno numbers are with a stock setup. Stock intake. Stock exhaust. No chipping. Just updated injectors and a replacement K&N filter.
I had this engine put in when I lived in Phoenix. It was installed by Pisa Corp. I would highly recommend them for any information needed, as well as items like custom brackets, etc. Marty is a great guy, and is awsome to de business with. I know you can also get them from Rodney Dickman. My car was the first one that Pisa Corp installed a 3.4 in. I don't know if they've done any more or not, but if I remember correctly, I paid $3500 for the engine and install. I heard if he was gonna do it again though, that he'd charge more. How much more, I don't know. Anyway, I hope this helps.
Oh, and as far as gas milage, I saw absolutely no change. I got and still get 20/28 mpg.
[This message has been edited by Zewerr (edited 05-20-2005).]
Its all about the torque, if you don't want to pay much for a swap this would be for you. Make sure you get everything including the starter relocated before you touch your fiero. You don't want to fix anything until its broken right? lol just joking, but in the case that it takes you longer then expected to get the stuff to you, thats just the amount of days you will be fieroless, and we cannot have that can we.
I will be doing my 3.4 swap shortly, but like yourself must wait until funds are at maximum potential to complete. My motor was blown when I bought it, so I really haven't had a chance to test out the power capabilities of the stock 84 2.5. But however I chose neither to go to a stock 2.8, or another 2.5. It was just in my best benefits to step up a little higher to a 3.4 for my car. Currently my car has been torn apart for what seems like forever, but since I have another car to drive daily, it doesn't bother me much.
Your best bet is to purchase a full complete 3.4 out of a 95 camaro etc. If you get a short block then you will probally end up putting your 2.8 heads on it. Which don't quote me with this, but I assume they wouldn't flow as much as a motor with more displacement. A long block is fine, but I would not trust a long block open to the weather. At least with a complete motor you have the satisfaction that nothing has been tampered with. I hope you have fun with your choice! I'll see you in the fast lane, haha! Good Luck!
------------------ Fiero 2MCUSTOM - 3.4 Pushrod swap in progress....
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10:23 PM
STRATOHACKER Member
Posts: 820 From: Columbus, OH U.S.A Registered: Jun 2003
no problemo, I can't remeber who to thank for writing those detailed instructions, I got them from somewhere.
I am pretty sure that was originally written up by CrazyD on here. He had them posted on his web site a couple of years ago and I remember using them as a guide to install my 3.4. Thank him
------------------ 85 GT 4-speed 3.4 pushrod, 390 Holley carb, Edlebrock intake, MSD 6A ignition. 04 Gran Prix exhaust tips, Ported manifolds and lots more to go. Richey
Your best bet is to purchase a full complete 3.4 out of a 95 camaro etc. If you get a short block then you will probally end up putting your 2.8 heads on it. Which don't quote me with this, but I assume they wouldn't flow as much as a motor with more displacement. A long block is fine, but I would not trust a long block open to the weather. At least with a complete motor you have the satisfaction that nothing has been tampered with. I hope you have fun with your choice! I'll see you in the fast lane, haha! Good Luck!
A stock 3.4L heads do have bigger valves.
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10:58 PM
May 21st, 2005
Larry Nakamura Member
Posts: 412 From: Clearlake, California, USA Registered: Jul 2003
If you don't have a compressor to evacuate the system with, then you will need to take it to a shop to do the work. Let's say $150 to evacuate and charge the system.
You may or may not need to replace the compressor, but if it has never been done, then would make sense to do it.
The above assumes that you do the labor to R/R the compressor / accumulator / orifive valve / O rings. I had the dealer quote me a price to just R/R the compressor. It was $498 for labor.
So if you do all the labor yourself, that's a total of $720 (without shipping costs). If you have someone else do the labor, then well in excess of $1K.
I know the numbers very well as I just went through this exact thing. I'm not trying to argue, just wanted to point something out.
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01:43 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
no problemo, THANK -*-*SOLO2*-*- FOR THIS WRITE UP
Actually, CrazyD wrote it out and Solo2 added/changed some things (like to use the Crane 2030 cam which is actually not that much better than stock) then claimed it was "his".
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02:05 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Your best bet is to purchase a full complete 3.4 out of a 95 camaro etc. If you get a short block then you will probally end up putting your 2.8 heads on it. Which don't quote me with this, but I assume they wouldn't flow as much as a motor with more displacement.
The cast heads on the Fiero 2.8L, 3.1L minivan engines, and the 93-95 F-Body cars are the exact same heads. Same part number, same casting number and same valve sizes.
I like my 3.4 much better than the 2.8s I have driven. I got my GT with a knock so I went to the 3.4 and I love it. I have a complete picture guide on the 3.4 swap 3.4L pushrod Swap (lots of pics)
So if you do all the labor yourself, that's a total of $720 (without shipping costs). If you have someone else do the labor, then well in excess of $1K.
I know the numbers very well as I just went through this exact thing. I'm not trying to argue, just wanted to point something out.
I was just pointing out that you can get a compressor WAY cheaper, here's the link again:
Thanks, sardonyx247, for the install pics. I will check them out. I really want to get some more power behind me, but the 3.4 sounds easier with my limited experience. My wife said that I can get a new engine as long as she can get a boob-job. A win-win situation in my book!
Does anyone know what I can expect to pay for a Fiero Factory (or other known installer) Caddy install? She may OK paying for it if it means she can keep using the garage...
By the way - Jazzman - where did your name come from?
Saxman
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11:48 PM
May 23rd, 2005
Shadow_Wolf Member
Posts: 759 From: Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canada Registered: May 2003
Using the newer 3.4 with the aluminum heads would provide more power, but the swap would become a lot more involved. I'm not even sure if you can use the distributor with the intake in that swap as I haven't looked it it thoroughly. It seems that with few modifications the aluminum headed 3.4 could easily make 200 hp.
Another option would be the 4.9---just look into it--it's a very good and not too expensive alternative.--I'm not saying it's better , but if your'e talking about swapping engines anyway----
The other thing is; I had an 86gt with a fresh 3.4 with some porting. It was very fast and it seemed to go from 60-100mph faster than the two 2.8's I've had. It also got 30mpg on the highway with the 5spd. Presently my 2.8 gets 27mpg highway and our 4.9-24mpg highway
------------------ Proud Member of the North Florida Fiero club 4T60E Parks harness/ Rockcrawl chip-- more to come--
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08:06 AM
Shadow_Wolf Member
Posts: 759 From: Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canada Registered: May 2003
I think it'll be pretty easy to make 200 hp with the all iron 3.4. I'm eventually gonna try, natually aspirated!
From what I've read here naturally aspirated would be the way to go! Supposedly the first step in gaining power is scrapping the fuel-injection intake. I'd like to find a NA intake but I've determined this is one of the worst places for scrapyards... selection is poor - mostly base models, and the Pick 'n Pull even charges ADMISSION! (Their selection was crap anyway, I don't go there now) Only a couple other u-pull-it yards around, the full serve yards charge FAR too much for engines.
What I was gonna try is dish out alot of money and have my stock intake manifold extrude honed. I know West Coast Fiero makes a higher flow intake, but I'm going for that bone stock factory look.
[This message has been edited by Zewerr (edited 05-23-2005).]
Thanks, sardonyx247, for the install pics. I will check them out. I really want to get some more power behind me, but the 3.4 sounds easier with my limited experience. My wife said that I can get a new engine as long as she can get a boob-job. A win-win situation in my book!
Does anyone know what I can expect to pay for a Fiero Factory (or other known installer) Caddy install? She may OK paying for it if it means she can keep using the garage...
By the way - Jazzman - where did your name come from?
Saxman
One of my more favorite episodes of the Simpsons, when Maggie played a tribute to Bleeding Gums Murphy after he died. The song she played was Carole King's 1974 hit "Jazzman."
JazzMan
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11:34 PM
May 24th, 2005
Blade_69 Member
Posts: 394 From: Chicago, IL, USA Registered: Jul 2002
Whoa!!! Went away for a few days and all of these responses. Thanks everyone.
As far as the AC...I have that covered. I may not need to change my compressor. Everything else cost me about $150 so I'm good on the AC.
Now the engine.....it looks like I'm going to go with the 3.4 for the simplicity and even the small pickup in torque. It's gotta be better than my 2.8. I had the mindset of "since i'm swapping engines, may as well go bigger" but then I looked at my bank account and it laughed at me. So 3.4 is what I'm looking at. As far as porting, polishing, camming, and all that other stuff, it'll have to wait. I'm just going for the basics for right now. As easy as I've heard that the 4.9 was, people forget to tell you about all the little "you might need this" and "you will need that" which ultimately in the end puts the price out reach. I'm looking to get a big promotion in September. If I get it, then my engine options will definitely change. SBC from www.enginefactory.com without hesitation. But for now.......I'm on the hunt for a 3.4. There are quite a few around here www.car-part.com so I won't have a problem getting one. Thanks again fellas.
[This message has been edited by Blade_69 (edited 05-24-2005).]
Originally posted by OREIF: Actually, CrazyD wrote it out and Solo2 added/changed some things (like to use the Crane 2030 cam which is actually not that much better than stock) then claimed it was "his".
quote
Originally posted by STRATOHACKER: I am pretty sure that was originally written up by CrazyD on here. He had them posted on his web site a couple of years ago and I remember using them as a guide to install my 3.4. Thank him
Thanks guys. Yes, I did write those instructions, and as stated they are copyrighted and may not be reproduced in this forum or anywhere else without my permission. I don't understand why "netpro55" is making such a point of thanking this SOLO2 guy, who simply plagiarized it from my website and took credit for it - and has since been banned.
Originally posted by crazyd: Thanks guys. Yes, I did write those instructions, and as stated they are copyrighted and may not be reproduced in this forum or anywhere else without my permission. I don't understand why "netpro55" is making such a point of thanking this SOLO2 guy, who simply plagiarized it from my website and took credit for it - and has since been banned. The instructions are at this link, where they've been for the last four years: http://www.crazydave.org/fiero34project Either you can take them off of here, or Cliff can. Dave
I would guess that netpro55 MIGHT not have known that you orignally wrote those and wanted to not take the credit for it. but that's just my guess
Just out of curiousity, and I'm not being a smart alic (cuz I know you used to get a lot of crap about this), but did you ever run the ZZ430 at a track or anything? I always wondered before you got a lot of crap on here what that thing would do in the quarter mile. I just have the 3 10 second videos you put on here that make it look fast as crap.
Thanks guys. Yes, I did write those instructions, and as stated they are copyrighted and may not be reproduced in this forum or anywhere else without my permission...
Thanks Dave. Whenever someone asks about a 3.4 swap, I always supply two links. The one you posted, above, and this one.
Thanks for sharing. That build-up has been useful to very many of us (whether the others knew it came from you, or not.) Thanks!
On a side note... If you really want to wake up a 3.4, get a Trueleo intake. www.trueleo.com and a larger throttle body. The Fiero intake system falls on its face at ~4500 RPM. This intake allows it to breathe deeply.
I'm glad I could help people with their 3.4 installations. I found what little info was out there confusing and incomplete when I did mine five years ago, so I set out to write the definitive 3.4 swap instructions. Since I finished it I don't think anyone has bothered with anything else, and to this day it is the #1 hit on my webpage. The fact that very few people write to ask questions about it but instead just say thanks is a testament to its clarity and simplicity, and I'm very proud of that. It is insulting to have someone else take credit for something I gave the Fiero community for free.
I'm very pleased to see that there is finally a stock intake replacement available for those with 3.4's, 3.1's or modified 2.8's. I took a look at that page, but I'm not laying down $650 on something I have no way of knowing how it will perform on my car. If anyone with a 3.4 setup like mine (with the regrettable Crane 2030 cam swap) has installed one, I'd like to see the thread.
Dave
[This message has been edited by crazyd (edited 07-03-2005).]
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05:36 PM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
