i read this at the 60 degree site:

http://60degreev6.com/discussion/kb.php?mode=article&k=52

does anyone know who makes that kit for the 3.8?

http://force-fed-fabrications.com/index2.htm

Perhaps them? Tiago 3.4 Turbo Firebird

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hey can anyone tell if that is the pushrod 3.4 or if it is the dohc? Cause man if that is jsut the pushrod. oh heck yes.

Hey does anyone make forged pistons/rings/rods for the pushrod 3.4 lt?

also there was a turbo 3.1 i heard out of like a early 90's grand prix can anyone tell me more about that at all?

And where in the fiero do you guys run the intercooler that have done turbo setups? bdcause if it uis in the truck that does not seem liek it would be very efficient to me ... even with fans on it.

[This message has been edited by vega (edited 02-08-2006).]

quote Originally posted by vega: hey can anyone tell if that is the pushrod 3.4 or if it is the dohc? Cause man if that is jsut the pushrod. oh heck yes. Hey does anyone make forged pistons/rings/rods for the pushrod 3.4 lt? also there was a turbo 3.1 i heard out of like a early 90's grand prix can anyone tell me more about that at all? And where in the fiero do you guys run the intercooler that have done turbo setups? bdcause if it uis in the truck that does not seem liek it would be very efficient to me ... even with fans on it.

It's a 3.4 pushrod, but it doesn't matter much anyway. 90% of the kit probably wouldn't work for a Fiero application. The intake is reversed, the engine is longitudinal and not transverse, no transaxle to work around, and a frount mount IC.

I'll be using a liquid to air intercooler stuffed into the trunk. It's a big Spearco, and it barely fits, but it will work perfectly. That way I won't need any ventilation fans or airflow around it either.

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My Web page | The Turbo Super Duty Build.
You know that little voice that says it can't be done? I duct-taped mine's mouth shut and pushed it down a flight of stairs.

i just want to knwo cause i know how to make my own turbo kit. so you are making yours i asume?

for a 3.4 pushrod?

you got a website or build thread?

quote Originally posted by vega: i just want to knwo cause i know how to make my own turbo kit. so you are making yours i asume? for a 3.4 pushrod? you got a website or build thread?

Nope, I'm turbocharging a Super Duty four-cylinder, but yes, I am making all of my own components. You can check out my build thread in my signature, or my profile 'FIF' on Yahoo Autos (which I have yet to figure out how to link to) for a quick summary.

quote Originally posted by vega: also there was a turbo 3.1 i heard out of like a early 90's grand prix can anyone tell me more about that at all?

Don't let Aaron see you asking about this engine. It came in 89 and 90 GPs. He will tell you all about how it makes less power than his beloved 3.4DOHC even with a turbo. He will then tell you to swap a 3.4 in your car. It makes 205HP, so the thing is, he kind of has a point.

It really isn't that good compared to the cost you have to pay to get a good one, and the extra work you have to do to install one. The 3.1 turbo is aluminum head, so you have to make all the usual compromises required to fit any aluminum head 60 degree in a Fiero, including relocating the alternator, but with the addtional problem of turbo plumbing routing. This is not to mention that the turbo that the car comes with is too small, a large trim T25 that belongs on an engine half a liter smaller, so there is a pretty well set limit on getting a lot more power by "turning up the boost".

Also the engine only came with an automatic, so you either have to get into the ECM code or deal with an engine that doesn't run right behind a manual transmission. On turbo grand prixs, the exhaust crossover pipe also has a tendency to crack from the heat, and costs an assload to replace, even using aftermarket parts.

One can't even just salvage the turbo setup off the engine and use it with an iron head V6 because the exhaust manifolds don't even line up.

Pretty much, its a no go, unless you REALLY HAVE to be different.

Kurt

i am just getting really interested in turboing a 3.4 pushrod and puting it in the fiero. the problem is that from my understanding there is no intake setup already made for a 3.4 (fwd) for a trubo setup. if there is one that actually flows well that i can use it with the fiero swap let me know because i am missing it.

a twin t61 turbo 3.4 pushrod with a built bottom end (forged pistons/rings/rods btw where do i get these for the 3.4 pushrod?) and an automatic tranny is my goal.

If there is no great intake that will work with that already made- i am afraid i will have to go with a 3.8 and make my on turbo kit for that as i assume there is a turbo intake for the 3.8 fwd.

quote Originally posted by KurtAKX: Don't let Aaron see you asking about this engine. It came in 89 and 90 GPs. He will tell you all about how it makes less power than his beloved 3.4DOHC even with a turbo. He will then tell you to swap a 3.4 in your car. It makes 205HP, so the thing is, he kind of has a point.

Exactly. For the same amount of work and money, you get a more powerful motor with much more potential. Our's make 400hp with 10psi, the 3.1 makes 240. However, I like the 3.1T, it just wouldn't be my first choice. And if you have to have to pushrods, just go all out and use a 3400. Though not as powerful initially, their cylinder heads and intakes are FAR superior to anything for the iron head motors. I honestly believe it would be wiser and more cost effective to do an engine swap rather than mess with the iron head pushrod motors.

quote Also the engine only came with an automatic, so you either have to get into the ECM code or deal with an engine that doesn't run right behind a manual transmission. On turbo grand prixs, the exhaust crossover pipe also has a tendency to crack from the heat, and costs an assload to replace, even using aftermarket parts.

The chip just has to be reburnt, it isn't a big deal. I drove a TGP 5-speed, ran just fine. Holy $hit it had torque. But it signed off at 5000rpm. He had a reburnt chip, full 2.5" exhaust, more boost, and a K/N. I had a CAI, 2.5" exhaust, chip, and a UDP. I beat him by a half second and 5mph, which is a pretty definitive win. But I really enjoyed driving it, the low end power was great.

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: Our's make 400hp with 10psi,

Really? Do you have a dyno showing this? Any proof at all?

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Really? Do you have a dyno showing this? Any proof at all?

Cali Kid doesn't need to prove it.

But, yes, I do. TimG, 1995 Monte Carlo Z34, stock 170,000 mile 3.4 DOHC with a T04-60e pushing 10psi intercooled with a 2.5" exhaust. 325whp 347wtq.

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"My engine's runnin' on time, my head's so f*cked up inside" -Breaking Benjamin

why pushrod?

the aluminum headed engines require mroe money/time to do the swap for (as in into a fiero) and from my understanding the DOHC 3.4 is hard to fidn without a massive a mount of probelms whihc would be fine IF the part for teh DOHC were not so expenisve. that is why i am going either 3.4 or 3.8 prefereably a way to stay MPFI but if i need to find a way to carb it because of chip programming issues i will go that way. i sorta hang out at pgmfi.org so i might fidna way to chip it my self....

but either way i want turbo and if it is easily posible to make 400whp with a t61 as that guy with teh firebird kit makes it sound (for me maybe not others... i have tos of soruces for parts- although it has been a while the last kit cost me about 1500 bucks to make with a buddy of mine for his b16a crx. we use junk yard parts and rebuilt instead of spending the **** load of money to jst buy a kit- oh and btw i use a electronic boost controller-)

I just liek the boost on the fly manajment tha's why no supecharger. So i don't care weqather you are makign 345- or 400 hp for your setup[ other than good on ya man for a good job. But for me it does not pertain to what i am doing. Catch me?

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: Cali Kid doesn't need to prove it. But, yes, I do. TimG, 1995 Monte Carlo Z34, stock 170,000 mile 3.4 DOHC with a T04-60e pushing 10psi intercooled with a 2.5" exhaust. 322whp 347wtq.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that dyno doesn't prove 400hp, You are looking at around 350-355hp.
That car is only putting down 13 rwhp more than my Fiero has and I know for a fact I am nowhere near 400hp.
So now you are guilty of embellishing horsepower just like everyone you call on. Cali kid claims 400hp on his engine and Aaron claims 400hp on someone else's engine.

quote Originally posted by vega: but either way i want turbo and if it is easily posible to make 400whp with a t61 as that guy with teh firebird kit makes it sound (for me maybe not others... i have tos of soruces for parts- although it has been a while the last kit cost me about 1500 bucks to make with a buddy of mine for his b16a crx. we use junk yard parts and rebuilt instead of spending the **** load of money to jst buy a kit- oh and btw i use a electronic boost controller-)

Don't quote me on this, but I believe I've heard that turbo's and carbs don't get along at all.

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AIM= Fish100770
96 Saturn SL2 Turbo (evil SL2)

My cardomain site: cardomain.com/memberpage/702872

i noticed that as well i just did not want to start a fight i just want some answeres so i can do more reasarch
- i know i seem like i post alot but i have been not really getting many hours at work lately so i have been doing lots of fiero reading during the days.

quote Originally posted by vega: Has anyone HERE thrown turbos at the 3.4 pushrod yet? (iam sure there is but i am having turble fidn acutal people who have doen it by searching.

Do a search under the archives for "Dennis LaGrua" he built a very nice 3.4L pushrod turbo with around 250-260hp.

well its seems the 3.4 ohv is out of th question now.... at least for turbos. no forged pistons as far as i can see from 60 degree .com
forged pistons will be custom for 800 bucks um yeah how bought no.

quote Originally posted by vega: forged pistons will be custom for 800 bucks um yeah how bought no.

Probe makes them for alot cheaper than that, I called ROSS pistons and they said something like $400 and then buy some eagle rods from summit for $250 (have them resized) and if you really feel froggy get a forged crank made for you.

quote Originally posted by vega: carbs and turbos don't get along well- not to insult you but are you joking? i have a buddy of mine tha tis currently working on a hot rod and has been doing these things for years. he is workign on a a twin turbo system on a small block v8 that run into a supercharger and is nitrous injected as well- and yup that motor is without a dought carbed. he is like 65 or so and your are gonna say that? smwhah HA HA HA HA HA oh geeze you make me laugh- i like you...

A carbed turbo engine will work and work well but they are never as good as fuel injected engines,and they are far more finnicky about fuel delivery than FI.

quote Originally posted by vega: carbs and turbos don't get along well- not to insult you but are you joking? i have a buddy of mine tha tis currently working on a hot rod and has been doing these things for years. he is workign on a a twin turbo system on a small block v8 that run into a supercharger and is nitrous injected as well- and yup that motor is without a dought carbed. he is like 65 or so and your are gonna say that? smwhah HA HA HA HA HA oh geeze you make me laugh- i like you...

You can laugh away, but I guarantee you he won't be laughing when he tries to tune for opening throttle conditions. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of blow-through carburated engines out there, but it's far from an ideal arrangement, especially if you're trying to keep the engine in one piece.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Sorry to burst your bubble, but that dyno doesn't prove 400hp, You are looking at around 350-355hp. That car is only putting down 13 rwhp more than my Fiero has and I know for a fact I am nowhere near 400hp. So now you are guilty of embellishing horsepower just like everyone you call on. Cali kid claims 400hp on his engine and Aaron claims 400hp on someone else's engine.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but he is running that through the 4T60e tranny. He made 169whp bonse stock, works out to a 20.5% parasitic loss with a 210hp engine. From 325whp, we find it is about 2392 crank hp. Sorry, not 400...There, add another half PSI. 10.5 psi makes 400hp...

quote Originally posted by AaronZ34: Sorry to burst your bubble, but he is running that through the 4T60e tranny. He made 169whp bone stock, works out to a 20.5% parasitic loss with a 210hp engine. From 325whp, we find it is about 392 crank hp. Sorry, not 400...There, add another half PSI. 10.5 psi makes 400hp...

WRONG!!!!!! Lets look at the facts of the dyno data:
According to the dyno (same car, same trans, same dyno)
He made 176 rwhp as the baseline, (blue graph on posted dyno)
After the mods he made 322 rwhp. (red graph on posted dyno)
Which means if the 1995 stock crank hp was 210 (assumed by the engines factory rating) and with the mods he gained 146 rwhp, He will have 356 hp at the crank.
The car is NOT going to gain 46 more crank horsepower (or 30% more) than what the rwhp gains.
So stock his engine was 210 hp/ 210 torque, after adding the 10.5 psi of boost and an intercooler his engine is now 356hp / 393 torque.
Losses thru the driveline are not a percentage but rather power used/required.
Going by the dyno data posted, It takes approximately 34 hp to drive the 4T60e trans in his car. (210 - 176 = 34)

So lets review:
1.) 322 rwhp minus the baseline of 176 rwhp = 146 rwhp difference. (all his mods gave him a 146 hp increase.)
2.) The stock rated crank hp is 210 add 146hp gain = 356 hp.
3.) Take the rated crank hp of 210 and subtract the rwhp of 176 = 34 hp used by the trans.
4.) Take the calculated crank hp of 356 from line # 2 and minus the 34 hp used by the trans = 322 rwhp. (which is what the dyno shows!)

The transaxle is NOT going to use more or less power just because the power from the engine changes. The power used by the trans will always be the same.

Did you hear the "pop" of your bubble this time?

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 02-09-2006).]

Arguing on the interent is like...
...at 10psi a 3.4DOHC will be up there...however not in an auto and from the graph...the turbo looks very well matched...so I will ASSume it isn't a very big huffer...
Can a DOHC 3.4 make 400hp at 10psi very possible...NOT ON THIS MOTOR IN QUESTION, based on other things not worth arguing about.
Now lets all hug, hold hands and sing kumbaya!!

quote Originally posted by goatnipples2002: Probe makes them for alot cheaper than that, I called ROSS pistons and they said something like $400 and then buy some eagle rods from summit for $250 (have them resized) and if you really feel froggy get a forged crank made for you.

1. Does either probe or ross pistons and eagle rods have websites????

2. what how when where why resize the rods and for what price????

3. Who would do the forged crank and for what pirce. and persoanlly i don't really see why i would need that done... not unless i running like 20+ psi cause there is a significant gain in just one t61 turbo at 5 psi and then running two t61 turbos would i am sure make much more hp although i might just end up throwing one on there but that is still onyl like 5 psi. 10 is alot for a t61 for power gain as far as i remember back in my turbo days.

The stock components in the later engines are pretty strong, some of the 3100s/3400s have reinforced cranks or rods or both whether it's by forging or using steel as opposed to cast iron. The hypereutectic pistons are quite strong they're just not as detonation friendly as cast or forged pistons but as long as there is no detonation issue the hypereutectics which I believe the majority of the engines use now if not all considering the high stock compressions should hold up to quite a bit of boost.

Having beat on cast pistons in a 2.8 and hypereutectics in a 3.4 behind a turbo, the hypereutectics took the most abuse. I broke a ring land on a piston in the 2.8 eventually having run as high as 12 psi boost but hoovering mainly around 7psi and chipped 3 pistons in the 3.4 after several severe bouts of detonation that were audible inside and outside the car resulting from a disconnected ground strap that affected timing; Despite the damage to the pistons it took quite a bit of driving before the problem finally started to show symptoms of the damage when one of the broken top piston rings cut deep enough into the cylinder wall to allow boost pressure into the crank case.

I doubt very seriously you need to do anything with the stock engine besides acquiring the proper compression ratio for boosting which you can do with a head gasket and making sure you have the proper engine management unless you intend to run very high boost levels, if I'm not mistaken the the Syclone and Typhoon have used hypereutectic pistons and possibly the 3800SC, according to my federal mogul catalog the Buick turbo cars received a mix of forged and hypereutectic not in the same engine of course and indicate also that trucks and utility vehicles tend to get the forged stuff so a V6 from a minivan or truck should be favored over one from a passenger car.

The 3500 has forged powdered metal rods and a steel crank so chances are pretty darn good that the 3400 has the same. You may want to look into getting a short block from an aluminum headed engine or better yet the rotating assembly to retrofit into a 3.4 block which would be easier. I chose to do the short block and make the few minor modifications so that all of the Fiero parts fit.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 02-11-2006).]

yes but what about the f body 3.4 from like 93- 95? pushrod does it have those psitons/ crank and what about rods bearings and rings? from like 93- 95?

It's possible but I'm not sure, that's why I suggested the 3400s internals be swoped into the 3.4 block since they are interchangeable mostly for the compression ratio drop for the benefit of boosting. The piston design between the two engines obviously is different. The rings on the 3400 pistons are thinner than those on the 3.4 and the pistons from the 3400 have an antifriction patch, both engines are DIS. The 3.4 apparently went out of production before the 3400 started I believe. I have been thrashing a turbocharged 3100 for about 3 yrs now and before I swop in my 3400 I believe I'm going to ditch the roller cam for the 272 hydraulic since the roller cam can't be modified due to its design and no one making a performance version. The 3400 in its aluminum head design has a lot more potential than what it is rated at. A cam and performance exhaust would work wonders for it.

Actually the 3400 short block has to many pluses over the F-body 3.4 the aluminum oil pan alone that bolts to the main caps for added rigidity is one. The entire engine wouldn't be a bad swop at all in my opinion even if you have to relocate the alternator, It flows better than the old 3.1 and really just needs a cam to get the most out of it.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 02-11-2006).]

ok i am talking about the iron headed f body motor what 3400 are you talking about??? the pistons from the dohc? how does that make sense.

The 3400 signifies a new and improved version of the 3.4 used in the F-body and at least one minivan with Iron heads. It is also an improvement over the 3.1 used in any of GMs vehicles except that particular displacement in the latest design is known as the 3100. The 3400 and 3100 engines have roller cams, roller rockers, higher flowing heads with splayed valves and bee hive springs and higher flowing intake design than the early 3.1 with aluminum heads, oil pan baffle, new design pistons, oil pan that bolts to the side of the main caps and the block is contoured a little to outline the cylinder bores so there may have been some improvements made to it as well.

I have both engines and from what I have observed everything is interchangeable between the 3400 and the 3.4 the exception being the timing covers which have two or three holes that differ in size between them which can be modified by resizing for the proper bolt. The 3400 having aluminum heads have pistons with a deeper dish in the center so under Cast iron heads they will have lower compression, in this case though I have not yet performed the math they should still be above 8:1 since they are 9.5:1 with the aluminum heads. So that makes 3 different 3.4L engines once you recall the 3.4 DOHC.

I believe the 3400 is a real sleeper because from what I have read there is only about 10HP and 10Lb-ft difference between the 3400 and the 3100 suggesting as in many cases they used the same cam for both engines. For example the 3.1 used in the F-body is rated at 140/180, the 3100 new design found in the fwd vehicles is rated at 180/190 and the 3400; 170-180hp/200-205lb-ft depending on the vehicle it comes from. GM probably manipulated the power output with the exhaust system, compression ratio and programming.

The 3.4 DOHC is a very potent and potential engine for performance but it doesn't have much depth in the back field in terms of quantity to support replacement in the event of catastrophic failures. I have yet to here of anyone consider going up in valve size in any of the push rod engines which would definately increase the output potential of the push rod engine bringing it a little closer to the DOHC. Then there is the turbo camaro above which sounds to me has a performance cam in it to go along with the stock internals.

Here is what the stock 3400 does on 5 and 9 PSI and think about what a peformance cam could do for it; http://www.turbochargedpower.com/Pontiac%20Grand%20Am.htm

So you are refering to taking the aluminum headed 3.4 pushrod internals from 99 and up (that had 180 hp)and put them in the old 3.4 pushrod motor from the 93-95 f body(that had 160hp)? OR are you refering to takeing the internals from the 3.4 dohc that was in a bunch of front wheel drive cars that had 215 hp?

Which one you are not being clear when you say 3400? all three of these motors have been at least one time in all the readings that i have done been refered to a 3400- so i am highly confused. So which of the three to switch over eh?

And Oreif can you or someone else confirm this? I do not know this guy well. (no offense this is your first posting i haev seen yet even if you have had 500+ posts arin has had at least that many and yeah....... well any how... you get my point.

No offense taken I don't know everything and I encourage you to check behind me. 3400 and 3100 titles are given by GM to roller cam engines only, the predecessors are 3.4 and 3.1 hydraulic cam engines and then there is the 3.4 DOHC, the terms have been used loosely. All are DIS ignition, all are 60 degree V6s with the 3.4 DOHC being unique in its block and head design as well as it's limitation to a much smaller number of vehicles compared to the other engines. Installing the rotating assembly from the 3400 is an option to keep you from having to do the added modifications necessary to properly secure the Fiero timing cover to the 3400 short block however the starter holes would already be in the appropriate location. I don't recommend it over using the complete 3400 short block because of its advances above and beyond the 3.4L from the F-body.

The complete 3400 can be made to work with the Turbo Grand Prix computer from what I understand since you intend to build your own turbo outfit. The 3400 intake and heads also flow better than what you would find on the Turbo 3.1 from the Grand Prix. I have both my engines in the Fiero intake and heads only because of my lack of knowledge at the time I purchased the short blocks as opposed to the complete engines insanely cheap. Had I bothered to find out if the code was available to me for tuning, I hope that I would have purchased each engine complete. Now it's possible to use the original PCM that runs the 3400 engine in stock form with modifications since it is possible to have the PCM reprogrammed. This is the same 3400 mentioned in an earlier post by someone else.

I use the crank sensor hole as the oil drain return for my turbo at the moment.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 02-12-2006).]

If you are going to build a motor than do it right the first time. If you cut too many corners than what will you be left with?

Yahoo and google still work...type in Ross racing pistons or go to the fierostore.com and find the Probe pistons. The Eagle "I" or "H" beam rods for a 350 with a 5.7 rod length and with small journals. You resize these rods because they are too wide and thick. The journal side needs to be shaved to fit the 60* V6 crank.

Yeah the 3400 or 3.4tdc/dohc are better than the 3.4 PR, but the 3.4 is way easier and cheaper to install. Not to mention that nobody talks about if the timing belt snaps or slips off for some reason your valves and pistons will collide.

About that website they don't show any dyno sheets of the higher numbers I wonder if the power is only present in the way higher rpms or it is a very peaky set up, because that's how it sounds to me. A peaky motor is a not good.

[This message has been edited by goatnipples2002 (edited 02-12-2006).]

I can't answer that question, I do know that in some old dyno videos they posted some time ago they used the same external refrigerant style cooling over the intercooler seen in the 3.4 camaro dyno run in the earlier site provided. Personally I see no real benefit to this type of dyno run to produce numbers that you will not see under normal driving circumstances, my guess is it serves as the start of a false impression since the numbers tend to stick in your head better than the helping hand required to produce the final numbers. I doubt they used it to produce the 3400 numbers since the 3800 Grand Prix they used in the video put out nearly 500 horsepower using that method so I suspect the 3400 numbers would have been considerably higher had they done so.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 02-12-2006).]