I figured I would go ahead and start a new thread since the old one was getting kind of tough to dig through. I got my pistons, rods, pins, and bearings in today, so hopefully we can get things rolling. The torque plate is on its way, and I don't quite know why the rings werent shipped...anyway, I'm heading home for spring break friday, so I should at least have the shortblock assembled by the end of spring break. I need to finish porting the head, get the valve seats ground, and install my valves, springs, and retainers onto my new head. I should also be getting the parts back from the powdercoater sometime next week, so I will post up some pictures then as well. Here are a few of the rods and pistons. Eagle H-Beam rods, and custom CP pistons (took me 8 weeks to get )

I should be making progress by next week, assuming that the torque plate comes in soon enough for the machine shop to begin work by the end of this week. I'm going to try to document this build a little better than the last. Thanks for looking!
--Bryson

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88 Fiero GT Quad4 Turbo =) 396 whp!

[This message has been edited by bryson (edited 03-16-2005).]

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/040182.html

^^Figured it may be helpful to link to the old thread. This one should be much more informative, with better (more) pictures and more detailed descriptions.
--Bryson

Looks good. Nice to see progress being made on #2.

Nate

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My Web page | The Turbo Super Duty Build.

quote Originally posted by bryson: Eagle H-Beam rods, and custom CP pistons (took me 8 weeks to get )

Well dude, CP's are the $h!t... expect to wait... My Ross pistons should only take 3 weeks, so they should be done by the end of the month, maybe first week in April.

I used Ross pistons in the first build. I was pleased with them, but I was also told that the CP pistons would only take 4 weeks. Hopefully it will be worth it. The price wasn't much more, so I suppose it was worth the wait.

What I've heard about CP's is that they really pay attention to the surface finish inside the ring grooves.

I asked them about a set to go with my Total Seal rings and they said that they could make them (duh), but that they prefer to use their rings. Are you using CP rings as well?

We talked to them and they said they prefer not to use the Total Seal gapless second rings, but have had a lot of success with conventional rings. Evidently the problem they have been having with Total Seal was that pressure would get trapped between the top ring and the gapless second, causing them not to seal well. Total Seal has started making a gapless top ring, and I talked to CP pistons and they said that they think it would probably work well. We have decided to go with the gapless top and a conventional second ring. What do you think? I have time to change it, because for some reason the rings didn't show up with all my other parts like they were supposed to.
--Bryson

The torque plate came in today, but imageshack isn't working for me right now, so I can't post any pictures. For anyone who doesn't know what it is, it's just a plate that the machine shop bolts onto the block to make the block contort is the same way that a head being bolted on would, so that they cut the bores to be straight when the block has a head bolted to it. Anyway, that means that everything can go to the machine shop today, so hopefully I'll have some stuff back by the beginning of the week.

My dad also found some shift forks for a good price, so hopefully I can get the transmission back together as well during the week of my spring break. If all goes well, I'm hoping to bolt the short block to the transmission and put the cradle back up in the car, so that when the head gasket comes in, I can put the head on the car while the engine is in there. I'm looking forward to this week; hopefully everything will be here when I need it, and I'll have time to do it all!
--Bryson

quote Originally posted by bryson: We talked to them and they said they prefer not to use the Total Seal gapless second rings, but have had a lot of success with conventional rings. Evidently the problem they have been having with Total Seal was that pressure would get trapped between the top ring and the gapless second, causing them not to seal well. Total Seal has started making a gapless top ring, and I talked to CP pistons and they said that they think it would probably work well. We have decided to go with the gapless top and a conventional second ring. What do you think? I have time to change it, because for some reason the rings didn't show up with all my other parts like they were supposed to. --Bryson

I have gapless top rings and conventional Napier profile 2nd rings for my engine. Now that the block's honed well enough for them to seat, I might actually be able to get some benefit from them.
The email I got from CP wasn't very explanatory... I had wondered what their hangup with Total Seal rings was. If they're willing to try it, my likelihood of getting CP pistons for my next engine just increased.

Im in the market for them too... I'm still coming up with specifications that I need my pistons made too. Can't wait! If you don't mind me asking, what did those pistons run you?

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 03-18-2005).]

gapless top and conventional 2nd - now that sounds like a good combination..may have to look into a set of those for when I add the turbo to the 3.4

Hey, sorry it took so long for the update. The machine shop didn't finish anything I needed to assemble the shortblock, and the powdercoating place didn't finish any of my stuff (I was hoping to have the trans case back so that I could assemble it). So, I spent my week putting an engine and transmission into my buddy's RX7, and helping another friend put his engine and transmission into his 240sx. I also ported and polished my head, which took forever! I am happy with the way it turned out, and I think it will be worth the effort. The exhaust ports, even on the 086 head, leave a lot to be desired. The entire head has a lot of steps due to casting imperfections, but the exhaust ports right behind the valve have a large step. I'm guessing it was made when the factory machined the space for the valve seats. I have a picture where I tried to show it as clearly as possible. I opened up the roof of the port to match my header on the exhaust side, but left the bottom really close to the same shape.

^^Beginning to port behind the valve seats

^^Stock exhaust port: you can see the step in the port right behind the valve seat

^^Exhaust after porting

^^Intake after porting

These pictures were taken before I did the final sanding of the ports. I used a sanding bit and also went back over everything by hand (specifically the short side radius) with some 60 grit paper, which will really remove material if you aren't careful. I think that this, coupled with the new header, new turbo inlet, new pistons, and lightened rotating assembly should give a good bit more power than I was seeing before at the same boost, without losing any torque or low end power. I made my previous number with a head that had exhaust ports about the same size as these, but with a terribly rushed port job, and I only did the gasket matching of the port, I didn't clean up any of the steps made when the head was cast.

--Also, to answer your question, I am on the engine builder's program with CV products and I got the pistons, clips, and "premium" pins for about $530.

Hopefully by next weekend either the machine shop or the powdercoating place will be finished, and I'll be able to assemble the shortblock or the transmission.

I ceramic coated the tops of the pistons last weekend, and will probably do the dry film lubricant this Friday. The machine shop finally got around to starting on our stuff, so I should have all I need to assemble the shortblock this weekend (still waiting on the head gasket). I don't think I'm going to get a chance to use my new head yet, though, because it would be close to 200$ worth of machine work to finish it up. Instead, I'll just run it with the head I used last time (maybe I'll try and clean it up some, but not to the extent of the head I just finished). I think I might coat the crank with the dry film lubricant as well, because it also has some pretty good oil-shedding properties.

^^You have to apply the stuff with an airbrush...

^^The sides are already prepped for the dry film lubricant, I just ran out of time.

--Bryson

quote Originally posted by bryson: I ceramic coated the tops of the pistons last weekend, and will probably do the dry film lubricant this Friday. The machine shop finally got around to starting on our stuff, so I should have all I need to assemble the shortblock this weekend (still waiting on the head gasket). I don't think I'm going to get a chance to use my new head yet, though, because it would be close to 200$ worth of machine work to finish it up. Instead, I'll just run it with the head I used last time (maybe I'll try and clean it up some, but not to the extent of the head I just finished). I think I might coat the crank with the dry film lubricant as well, because it also has some pretty good oil-shedding properties. ^^You have to apply the stuff with an airbrush... ^^The sides are already prepped for the dry film lubricant, I just ran out of time. --Bryson

Sweet. Makes me wish I would've taken the time to coat my pistons. Where did you get the coating?

I got the coatings through Techline Coatings -- we can do pistons, if you decide you want to get that done, or if you want it done for a new engine. We will do all the prepping, coating, and stuff for the thermal coating on top and the dry film lubricant on the sides for 100$ for a set of four.

I am still debating coating the combustion chamber of this head and the seats of the valves, because I don't think I will run this head for more than four or five months. Anyway, I'll post pictures as I make progress. I am somewhat glad I get to do this all again though, because I can do things differently that I realize I should have done the first time (it was my first time really building up an engine or doing any engine swap). Any ideas or suggestions are welcomed!!
--Bryson

So would that be $200 for a set of 8?

How does what you have from Techline compare to TBC tops and PC-9 skirts from Swain? Same stuff?

I'm not very familiar with the Swain stuff, but I'd imagine it is the same. I'm fairly sure they are both caramic thermal barriers and graphite dry film lubricant. PM me!
--Bryson

Finished my pistons (and Will's too):

Also, I got some goodies back -- I'm still waiting on a few more things, but what I have looks pretty good.

What are the advantages of ceramic coating the tops of the pistons? And or anything else? Keep heat down?

Love the build up... part 2

Matt

Yes -- it prevents heat soak into the pistons. The piston temps stay lower, which helps with detonation and also keeps things a little safer. Doing the combustoin chambers provide the same benefits. The dry film lube on the skirts just keeps friction low. I'll probably put it on the bearings, and probably the back of the valves, as well as the stems.

quote Originally posted by bryson: Yes -- it prevents heat soak into the pistons. The piston temps stay lower, which helps with detonation and also keeps things a little safer. Doing the combustoin chambers provide the same benefits. The dry film lube on the skirts just keeps friction low. I'll probably put it on the bearings, and probably the back of the valves, as well as the stems.

Does the dry film lub eventually wear away?

Matt

No, it impregnates the aluminum on the sides of the pistons. It seems to be a pretty good deal. I noticed a little wear on my last piston skirts, and I don't think I even put 5000 miles on the car.

The ceramic coating has the same effect as a slight increase in compression. By keeping heat out of the pistons, it traps a little more in the chamber and gives you a small bump in power compared to uncoated pistons.

Put the lube coating on your bearings? How thick does it go on? Set your clearances carefully...

When I get my heads/cams done, I'd like to do chambers, ports and valve faces as well.

You got the coatings from techline... what do you need beyond the raw material? Just a spray gun and over for curing?

Since the lube impregnates the metal, you can take it down with a scotchbrite about all the way to bare metal if you have to. You have to have the material, the aluminum oxide (pretty expensive), a blast cabinet, an oven, and an airbrush. I used a paint booth to paint in, and a paasche airbrush to apply the coatings. I am excited about this weekend -- everything is finally in. The machine shop is finishing up, the head gasket should be here this week, and the transmission case should be bac kfrom the powdercoater -- I was going to assemble the trans myself to see what I can learn, but I think that because of time constraints, my dad and a friend are going to put it back together. I've got another 282 I can take apart to see how things work anyway. I should have a lot of pictures after this weekend.

Hey bryson what did the head gasket run yah, I'm really curious, i don't think i trust any mechanics to O ring my block or to at least give me a good warrenty after scewing around with my parts. what is the compression loss from teh head gasket aswell.

We had SCE custom make us some gaskets -- we had to order 4 for them to do a run. I don't know the exact price because I haven't gotten the bill yet, but it should be around 125 for a gasket, which is a good deal considering the costs of O-ringing a block and cutting reciever grooves in the head. I ordered a .049" compressed gasket, which is about stock. I'm trying to keep the quench area in the combustion chambers. If you're interested, let me know.
--Bryson

Well I had big plans for this weekend, but Thursday rolled around and SCE made us the wrong gaskets. They mixed things up and made us gaskets for the 2.4L Twin Cam engine. Anyway, they dealt with the problem very well, and offered us compensation for their mistake. I had the crank knife edged, so I included some pictures of it. I got a nice set of engine cleaning brushes for Christmas http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?CatCode=27006 so this engine got much cleaner than my last engine. I also test fitted everything and checked clearances using Plasti-gage, which is a pretty neat deal. If you don't know what it is, it's basically a thin plastic wire that gets compressed when you torque down the main caps or rod caps. When you take it back apart, you measure how wide the strip is, and it tells you your tolerances. Mine checked out at ~.0015 all around, so I'm set.

You can see in this first picture where all of the material was taken off the crank. I meant to weigh it, but I forgot to bring a scale. It feels like they took off about 5 lbs! I can notice a significant difference in this crank and a stock crank.

Here is the plasti-gage

[This message has been edited by bryson (edited 04-18-2005).]

I've always wondered about knife edging, I know it reduces the weight of the crank where it counts the most (at the far outside of the crank) and it also makes the oil sling off properties better and makes the crank slice through air and oil quite well. lowering rotating mass and resistances. But what I wonder about is how it effects the balance and strength of the crank. They put the counter weights there for a reason, so why is it ok to cut them down? Just alittle curious...

I don't know how they balance them after they knife-edge them. I do know that I've seen cranks before with hardly any counter weights, so I imagine there is a way to do it. Maybe they are just there to add mass to the reciprocating assembly. More mass makes the car more driveable, more difficult to stall, but slightly less power. I really don't know, it's just a theory. Also, someone asked me about knife edging as opposed to just cutting the counterweights down, so I did some calculations. I figure it would make for some interesting discussion, so I'll post it here as well. Let me know if you guys think it's flawed in any way. I just calculated the moment of inertia of removing the same amount of weight both ways, and knife edging made a better candidate.

edit: I think I did the math wrong, because the Cg moves slightly outward. Now I can't figure out why knife edging the crank is better than just cutting the counterweights down on an engine with a windage tray...

Maybe someone with more knowledge on the subject will have some more to add. There are a few engineers on here, I know.

[This message has been edited by bryson (edited 04-18-2005).]

Hey bryson how about an update :P, I read of a quad 4 forum that you shouldn't port the intake side, it is suppost to be left relatively bumpy (stock) so that the air and fuel mix from the turbulance?

PM me abotu those head gaskets I'd really like to get one from you.

No updates right now -- SCE shipped us the wrong gaskets (they made them for the 2.4L), but they handled the problem really well, and I'll have my gaskets by this weekend, so that when I go home on the 8th I can finish up the engine (and I can coat a few things that I wanted to coat initially but didn't get a chance to). I don't know how much time I will be able to spend in Charleston, though, because I need to come back up to Clemson to help finish the Formula SAE car in order to go to competition on the 18th. I'll let you know as soon as I get the gaskets. I got some more information on these gaskets to see how they work, and it's a pretty cool design. http://www.scegaskets.com/products/ics.html There is the page describing how they work. There was also a guy using those gaskets that made 52 dyno dyno runs with a 286ci smallblock at a peak boost of 43 psi and over 1800 hp without any compression or coolant leaks, so I think that the gasket will be able to handle anything I throw at it. I'll keep you guys posted as I progress, sorry for the delay!
--Bryson

I haven't done much, because I've been taking Maymester courses, but I did a little work between Spring semester and Maymester. I just now got around to posting pictures. I have about a week once I get home before I start working, so I should get some more work done then. All I have done so far has been to assemble the shortblock.

bump

Not too much to show -- things have been slow because I've been waiting on my head to get finished up. I got the transmission on the engine and the oil pan modified for the oil drain from the turbo. I couldn't access my imageshack account because I'm on a different computer -- sorry Cliff for using up your space.

That is an old head and cam tower on there; the one that's going into the car looks much better.

Oh my god! I found a rusty link that was posted on GAOC Forusm a while ago, and I was intrigued, so I decided to read the first build up. 2 hours later, I finished reading every post on both of your build-ups, and registered to these forums. I just want to say that you have inspired me to build up my new 1998 Twin Cam that I just dropped into my 97 GAGT. Keep up the awesome work.

Did I mention I've loved Fiero's since I was 12? Pontiac's Bastard Son, the most amazing Mid engine RWD car Ive ever known. This makes me want one even more, but until I can find one, my 97 Grand Am will have to suffice.

[This message has been edited by 97LD9GAGT (edited 06-21-2005).]

Sorry there haven't been any updates lately. I can assure you that progress has been made, pics taken, but with my son having to work, and girls, and surfing, and girls, and .... girls. Well, I guess you can see why he has been somewhat remiss in updating this. In fact, his plan was to do just that today but he left to go to Myrtle Beach last night to meet some, you guessed it...

Bill

I wish my Dad would update my stuff online.

^^Yeah, thanks dad -- I just wish I had a little more progress to update. I've got all the accessories on the engine now, and the engine is ready to go into the car. I'll post updates as they come, but I have been slack about pictures because I haven't been able to access my imageshack account, but I've got it figured out now.

I tried to show the wrinkle finish on the timing chain cover here -- it looks pretty good.

I mocked up the turbo and boost tubes and everything outside the car, because I thought it would probably look pretty cool.

Hopefully I'll get the engine in pretty soon, and I'll be able to post some more pictures. I've got a good work schedule this week (all 10-3 shifts ) so I should be able to get a lot of work done. Sorry for the lack of updates!
--Bryson

quote Originally posted by bryson:

Is that the stock rear trans mount bracket or a Rodney Dickman bracket?
The stock mount bracket didn't last long with 300 HP on my car, I know it won't last long with 400.