Well, there were many ideas for the title of this thread.. Probably would have been sufficient if I had spelled the one I used right
I got shafted
The messyest job you'll ever do
or
The "why am I not charging for this" guide to axels for the 4T65E-HD

Okay, I spent most of the day in parts stores working on this, I pulled dozens of axels off the shelf and measured many aspects of them. Fortunately Autozone just gave me free run of their hard parts.

All the articles or instructions Ive seen on this subject are very vuage, and some seem downright impossible. At least with the parts I have on hand I know you could not do it, maybe they had something else. So I figured I would just start from scratch, I took some educated guesses allong with the parts Ive heard of before and went to the parts store.

Now obviously this may differ depending on how you mount your engine, Ive got pretty much equal spacing on each side, and about as low as you can get.

We'll start with the drivers side, this is going to be tricky. Now we'll start by going to the parts store and getting a drivers side axel for a stock Fiero. Now heres where it gets hard, take it out to the garage, stick it in the tranny, then in the wheel bearing. Tighten the nut and THATS IT! It fits just like that, dont have to change anything... Dunno why Ive never heard of this before....

[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 07-01-2006).]

As for the hard stuff:
UPDATE: for an axel that is 1-1.5" longer, use an 03 Chevy cavalier 4spd (both sides are the same) instead, same deal as the axels below, but a little longer, I took my berettas apart and used these instead as they sit a little farther in the cup at full drop, but still dont bottom out.

What you will need:
Drivers Side:
DS Donor Tranny inner CV tripot and the tripod with bearings
DS '94 Chevy Beretta V6 4T60 CV shaft (AZ# 9535) - 59.99
Replacement Outer CV clamp (4.25")
1 Can Brake Cleaner
1 Roll Paper towells

Passengers Side:
PS Donor Tranny inner CV tripot and the tripod with bearings
PS '94 Chevy Beretta V6 4T60 CV shaft (AZ# 9534) - 69.99
Replacement Outer CV clamp (4.25")
1 Can Brake Cleaner
1 Roll Paper towells


Basiacaly what we are going to do is take the roller bearings off the new shafts and replace them with the donor shaft parts so the donor shaft inner cup will slide on. The outer joints are fine how they are.
-----------------------------------------

Assembly: Both sides will be the same, but obviously you will use the respective parts for each side

You will want to start with a suitable work area. A 24 pack of pop works great. Split it down a seam and lay it open. You will also want a container that you will never have to (and you will never want to) use again. I found an old dog food bag.

I got some nitrile gloves to keep the gooey grease off my hands.

Starting with the 94 beretta axel
Now remove the CV clamp, grab it just in front of the notch and roll it backwards


Now you just give the inner tripot a pull and it will slide right out.


Now you will want to salvage all the new grease you can, so scoop it off the remaining axel and put it into the tripot cup.

Repeat with the Donor drive shaft, but throw away all the grease you can. You will want to scoop out the tripot cup and then flush it with brake clean.

Now look at your tripod joints, the rollers. Chances are the donor ones are rounded, are the 94 beretta ones also? SCORE!! it will plug right in. Just slide the donor tripot cup onto the new shaft and clamp.

You can see the two types im talking about here. The two far rollers are squared, the two near are rounded (GM original)

Now chances are, you are as unlucky as me, and the 94 shaft rollers are more squared, now this means it wont fit by about 3 thousanths of an inch DOH!

So now we need to figure out what to do. You would think that you could pull the tripod joint off and slide it on the new one, nope sizes are diffrent are'nt they? Well we'll have to pull the tripod joint.

Now on the donor shaft, you can usualy get the the top snap ring as normal. Just unsnap it and slide the tripod joint off.

Onto the new shaft. Mine I could not get to the upper ring. So I checked out the lower, pop it loose and slide it down, now you can get to the upper ring and slide the joint off. I suppose you could just do the rest of it without removing them, but I think its easier.

Good news is the rollers are the same ID, so you need to slide off the rollers without disturbing the needle bearings. Where to start?

Unlike the Fiero tripod joints, these have lock rings and washers so the rollers dont fall off and needle bearings drop everywhere.

You will notice the donor rollers will slide right over the lock rings with a little tug, so slide them off.

Now move the the new parts, and be very careful you dont wanna mess up those needle bearings. These you will have to remove the lock rings and washers to get off. I found if you wrap the tripod in a rag and place it in a vice its much easier to work with. Also, if you place it low in the vice so that when you tighten it, it pushes up on the roller, it will make things much easier. Heres a pic of how I got the snap rings off.


It helps if you put upward pressure on the washer, it will keep the lock ring from rotating, enabling you to get it flexed enough to move it out of the groove

Once you get the ring off, do not remove the roller. Walk very carefuly over to where you placed the donor rollers, now slide off the new roller, very slowly, if the needle bearings try to go with it stop and try again. Once you get it off, slide the donor one on and immediately replace the washer and lock clip. Now rotate and repeat.

When you have all 3 new rollers on the new tripod, rinse it off with brake clean if you think you might have gotten ANY crud in there, its imperitive this be spotless. Blow it off with some air, but dont grease yet.


Do NOT slide the lower lock ring back into place before installing the tripod back on the new shaft. Remeber, you cant get to the top lock ring with it in its place. So put the tripot back on, install the top ring, then slide the lower back into place. Now you will want to scoop all the new grease from the new tripot into the donor tripot. Then make sure you grease up the rollers real good.

Now you will want to clean the outer lip of the donor tripot cup, and the inner edge of the cv boot, it will not seal if there is grease in there. Place the boot back on and put on a new clamp. Take the shaft (which is probably covered in grease) and hose it down with brake cleaner, if you have any left at this point. And im sure you've figured out what to do with the paper towells by now.


I installed the shaft I made just to demonostrate. Even at full drop (as low as its going to go anyway) the rollers stay far in the cup.


Now just repeat!!

[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 07-16-2006).]

dude use new grease ..that stuff is used ..Thanks for the info I really appreciate the legwork done by members that offer it up for free ..thats what helps meake Pennocks such a great place ! I am considering a 3.8 sc swap right along with my current N* swap that has been in limbo for the time being ..and this info will really help save some time ..the 4t65hd has the same splines as the 4t60 E so it sould also work for the 4t60e?

Im used the grease that came in the new axels, fresh off the shelf, so its new.

Ive got a 4T60 off a TGP here, and im not sure why, but im pretty sure it is diffrent somehow.. I'll look tomorrow.

And something I forgot: While you could use the stock Fiero CV shaft for the drivers side, im going to use the modified 94 axel because they are about .10-.15 inches bigger in the shaft and the joints are bigger too, so it should be stronger. Might be a good upgrade for stock manual tranny axels, as the passenger side 94 axel inner joint would pop right into a manual Fiero. Its an idea, since I warped one with my 3.4DOHC, then snapped another one in half when I put the turbo on.

good thing I have a dead 94 beretta sitting in the yard...........

Hey, that's a nice build up, but you forgot to mention what swap you're doing, and what mounts you're using.

Bob

My 97 N* is in an 86 GT with the th125. I've read about swapping in the 4t60. Would the 4t65e hd use the same mounts? Axles I'm sure will have to be custom made since I have the Held wide suspension for my AD 355 body.

Im doing a 3.8SC with custom mounts, but it will work for any engine that you want to use the 4T65E-HD with, and most any mounts.

The 4T65E-HD uses diffrent mounts, but would be a much stronger choice for the N*

I really have no idea why noone has every thought of using the stock axle from the th125 if it fits the HD splines. Without directly quoting darthfieros axle building site, he says they are too small to work.

Here's what I did on mine: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20050818-2-057039.html

+

Bob

[quote]So, to sum it up, I used an 84 auto driverside on the driverside, and I used the 85 manual (4spd) axle with the 4t65hd inner on the passenger side.[quote]

Shelby township? I have alot of friends that live down that way.

Stock fiero th125 auto driver side axle installed on my 4t65e-hd swap.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Stock fiero th125 auto driver side axle installed on my 4t65e-hd swap.

The DRV side axle for the 65E-HD used just the stock Fiero DRV side auto axle, plug and play, The other side uses the mix/match axle from the donor and a Manuel Fiero outer hub. When buying your axles, most aftermarket axles are differant and dont work out for the Pass swap.

If a stock Fiero axle works then a Stock 90-91 Beretta 3.1L with soft ride (FE1 or F41 option) will work also, and it has the larger inner shaft. I have one and it fits in the 4T65E, I haven't got it in the car yet but it measures the same length as the axle I have in there with the 4T60E, which although Darth says uses the same axle as a 4T65E, is not the same.

here is what I have found and tested.
1994 4T60E
Drivers side axle - 1989 pontiac 6000 4speed left axle with light duty brakes will bolt in. Mevotech CV5087
Passenger side - stock fiero left manual axle will bolt in. Mevotech CV5091

2002 4T65E (non-HD)
Driver side axle - 90-91 beretta axle will fit transmission and measures the correct lenght. Mevotech CV5048
Passenger side axle - stock fiero left manual axle fits transmission - should fit as 4t65E is same dimensions as 4T60E. Mevotech CV5091

Only axle you should have to piece together would be a passenger axle for a 4T65E HD. All others should be able to get away with stock off the shelf parts.

[This message has been edited by LFiero67 (edited 07-03-2006).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I really have no idea why noone has every thought of using the stock axle from the th125 if it fits the HD splines. Without directly quoting darthfieros axle building site, he says they are too small to work.

The stock 125-C auto axles don't fit the HD splines. Not even the stock Fiero manual trans axles fit the HD splines...directly. The reason why I don't like to use the 125-C Fiero axles is because they are "light" duty, and are some of the smallest diameter axles GM used. The manual trans axle diameter used in the Fiero is what I call "medium" duty, as they measure right in between the light duty 125-C axle diameter and the heavy duty 4T65-E HD diameter. The 94 Beretta 4T60-E OE axles are also "medium" duty.

As the instructions on my site state, you can use the stock 125-C auto axle with a 440-T4 trans -- direct bolt on (pass side), depending on engine swap mounting. However, the stock pass side 125-C axle I have found to be too long when 4T60-E and 4T65-E transmissions are used. Again, that depends on the location of the engine/trans on the cradle.

------------------
power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Custom Computer Tuning | Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | www.gmtuners.com

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: The stock 125-C auto axles don't fit the HD splines.

Whats confusing me is that it slid right into my tranny, from an 01 GTP 3.8SC, shouldnt that be a 4T65E-hd? Drive train was from a lower milage wrecked car, so I really doubt its not the stock tranny, but maybe that model didnt come with the 65HD? From what all Ive seen all SCed engines came with the 65HD, but im no expert. I did find this which lists all SCed GPs as 65HD, but more interestingly reveals a "comp G" GTP with a better final drive

The 4T65E-HD (code MN7) is a heavy duty version of the 4T65-E used with V8 engines like the LS4 V8 and L32 supercharged V6.

Applications:

2.93:1 MN7
Chevrolet Impala L37
Chevrolet Monte Carlo L37
Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
Buick Park Avenue
3.05:1 MN7
Buick Park Avenue Ultra
3.06:1 MN7
Chevrolet Impala SS
Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS
3.29:1 MN7
Pontiac Grand Prix GTP Comp G


Not sure what mine is, I assumed it was HD, there are a ton of part numbers, 24211841, 24211956, 24209508, and it has the number 917 all over it. Any help id'ing it would be much appreciated

[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 07-07-2006).]

The driverside fit directly into my transmission too, it was a 98 gtp. It fits quite perfect. I think there is some confusion that me and adam are talking only about the drivers side, the pass side is for sure designed for a larger axle, as the hd transmission uses a bigger differential.

There was a mostly unbased rumor that in some of the extreme early 96/97 l67s came paired with 60e's.

I am on my way outside to size my caviler axles I just found at a friends house, see if they can fit the bill for the passenger side. They are the heavy diameter, but unknown about the length.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 07-08-2006).]

A DRV side stock auto Fiero axle fits into the HD tranny plug and play. Its the Pass side axle that is not plug and play and that needs to be made up of 3 seperate axles.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: A DRV side stock auto Fiero axle fits into the HD tranny plug and play. Its the Pass side axle that is not plug and play and that needs to be made up of 3 seperate axles.

lol, that was the point of this whole thread, though you do not need 3 axels, you dont use any part of the Fiero axels, and in fact I cannot figure out how the parts you're supposed to use fit, as the parts I had were all the wrong size (and I had manual and auto parts)

For the passenger side you only need the inner tripot and roller bearings from the donor vehicle, and the rest of the axel from a 94 beretta. The inner roller bearings could actualy be from any GM car with the larger axel

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: lol, that was the point of this whole thread, though you do not need 3 axels, you dont use any part of the Fiero axels, and in fact I cannot figure out how the parts you're supposed to use fit, as the parts I had were all the wrong size (and I had manual and auto parts) For the passenger side you only need the inner tripot and roller bearings from the donor vehicle, and the rest of the axel from a 94 beretta. The inner roller bearings could actualy be from any GM car with the larger axel

You dont need 3 complete axles but more than likly that is what you are going to start with, the 2 from the donor and a manuel Fiero axle. Using the inner from one donor axle, the actual axle from the other donor axle and the outer hub from the manuel Fiero axle. This is the setup I used to build my axle for the Pass side and it worked out perfect. Of course, if you buy aftermarket axles then they might not work being most are smaller in diameter.

Doh, I wish I knew about the drv fiero auto axle being plug and play (would of saved me about $100 bucks LOL) do the fiero drv auto axle measure 1 1/2 inches from boot end to boot end ?
About the spline size, I thought the drv side fiero spline would not fit the HD transmission, I figured it was the same spline size as the 4t60 E transmission.

My drivers side had to be 1 1/2 inches axle lenght from boot end to boot end. Depending on the transmission mounting location some ppl can get away with 2inches.

[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 07-08-2006).]

I am changing over the rollers right now, just came inside to call my friend over so he can catch the snap rings for me.

Well, I look to be all set, test fit them and everything, on my way to get new grease right now becaust I got my beretta axle used.

UPDATE:

If you need a little longer shaft, you could use ones from an 03 chevy cavalier, both sides of this car are identical, so either side

It will add 1-1.5" of length to each of your shafts, and the outers are direct slide ins, the inner joints will actualy slide right in as well on the drivers side, but they have some wierd stepped seal surface, it might seal, or it might not seal at all, depends on how the seal actualy sits in there, I didnt look too close. The stock GTP joints have a longer sploined section where it goes into the tranny so I figure more material = stronger so I used them. Same deal as the beretta axels there. Ive got some detailed measurements I'll post later

My pass side axle, made from the 94 beretta and the GTP rollers, is WAY to short, I dont think it will even work.

I am really scared right now, I dont see this axle working when my suspension is extended at all. Lucky i have a caviler axle here, with the same tripot spline pattern so I can change it out if it doesnt work.

Use the DRV GTP axle with the PASS GTP inner Tri-pot and the manuel Fiero outer and the axle will be a perfect fit. Well unless you mounted your motor/trans way off to one side or the other.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Use the DRV GTP axle with the PASS GTP inner Tri-pot and the manuel Fiero outer and the axle will be a perfect fit. Well unless you mounted your motor/trans way off to one side or the other.

ok NOW I get it. Nothing against Darth, he's one of the best in the field, but that page he has about the axels is all but incomprehensible in my opinion, he often refers to the "inner" fiero this or inner fiero that, which IMO means the pieces that are near the tranny, but apparently he is refering to the ones that are near the spindle.

Also, darkhorizion pointed out that his berretta pass axel was way too short, and once getting mine in the car it was a little too short (short enough to make me look for a new solution, but not too short to really work) so I would like to hear more about the manual axles, but should you mount your engine off center, which there is no need to stock, then either of the options Ive listed will work for one side or the other.

If nothing else, at least now you have some more info about axels

[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 07-22-2006).]

I took my friend out for a little test drive today, and I guess the extra weight on the pass side finially blew that axle apart, so I poped it back in and backed around into my shop. Because I am lazy, I think I am going to use one of the caviler axles I have laying around here for this side. And if that fails, then I will try the driver side gtp axle, when I get my friends manual outers.

Now, is the driver side stock manual axle the same tranny tripot design? Like will it just plug into the trans?


Also, my dogbone bracket didnt even come close to lining up, it was pushed over to the pass side about 1.5 inches, so i had to cut it off.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 07-22-2006).]