This is just an information probing thread and not for the purpose of my "OBD can beat up your OBD"

I'm not at all a programmer nor do I pretend to know anything about these parameters that the ECM deals with but what I'd like to hear is whether OBD1 is capaple of making automatic adjustments to things like fuel delivery, timing based on the sensor signals it gets? I see where OBD2 maybe more be able to perform realtime tunable. Okay Im running OBD1 and things seem fine but how do I know that Im getting all I can get?
I have gone to a 3.4 pulley and have thought about going to different ratio rockers. Will I see the performance change without having the chip reburned? Even if I had OBD2 I do not have the knowledge of tools to "tune".
How hard is it to convert to OBD2? Additional wiring?
I am very happy with the chip that Ryan has done for me and I have no real complaints. I'm just wondering about the performance upgrades.

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" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"

I will say that ODB2 is far easier to interface to (software wise) and had way more aftermarket tools to interface to it. I can read all data live without changing how the motor acts unlike our ALDL/ODB1. Plus some ODB2 allow prom changes via the connector which is really nice.

quote Originally posted by timgray: I will say that ODB2 is far easier to interface to (software wise) and had way more aftermarket tools to interface to it. I can read all data live without changing how the motor acts unlike our ALDL/ODB1. Plus some ODB2 allow prom changes via the connector which is really nice.

I thought the Ostrich Emulator from Moats allowed the same live data and and adjustments on fly and eliminates need to burn a chip each time..

Bascily, there is a very large user base of people programming modded 3800's and there is alot of experience and trials that people have discovered.

The fact is, tuning with anything is not an exact science, the idea is to get things as close as possible. I really have no room to argue against the capibilies of obd1, as I have never tried tuning, nor have I ever disussed tuning obd1 with anyone. Reasons why I think obd2 is a better option:

1. GM put a few thousand man hours into setting up the obd2 system with a 3800 (I know one of the gm proving ground employees), so why rely on a obd1 setup that borrows some ideas from the obd2 setup in a few hours of copy and paste into the obd1 file. there are many examples as why I belive this, as I asume it is similar to how tuning modified obd2 3800's work (explained in 2 sorta)

2. When upgrading injectors or mass air flow sensors on obd2 hardware (relating to the copy and paste problem above), it is a long and tedious process of speed density tuning to get the fuel tables back in order. I dont know the limitations that obd1 has on this subject, but I have never heard of anyone doing speed density or volumetric efficency tuning on obd1.

3. Accuraccy. Although mostly BS, I hear that obd1 has trouble keeping up at high rpm's, has a few low resolution sensor issues, and some funny bugs appear when doing some custom tuning.

4. Relating to fieros, the obd2 allows for a direct swap. I didnt even unconnect more than 50% of my harness to swap it into my fiero, and I never touched the PCM programming. (ok I lied but it didnt have anything to do with the motor, just adjusting some trans parameters) I also never cut a engine sensor or injector of o fht stock gtp harness.

The reason I have for downtalking obd1 is the simple fact that it isnt factory. People with cammed and otherwise modded 3800s running obd2, have a very difficult time getting their cars running even close to right and they put in alot of time and draw on alot of experience. Currently, it is no more difficult (IMO alot easier) to swap obd2 into your car


In responce to the orginal post, you can examine how strong your motor is by examining how your engine is running. The idea of tuning is maximizing fuel efficency IE the most complete burn at the optimum temperature, and with as much timing advance as possible. A common stock motor (stock = stock/ported exhaust mani's, any exhaust intake setup, ported/unported blower) should be able to run as close to 16 degrees of timing as possible, and not running rich (o2's under 925ish), all why not noticing any knock (which kills your timing and eventually your pistons).
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It's Done!!
Time to iron out the kinks.....

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/072877.html

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 11-08-2006).]

I have experienced pinging (is that knock) during acceleration when I wrongly put a in 86 octane gas.

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" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"

Copy/paste from the other Thread:

Yes you have the flexabilty but not like you would if you where running OBD2. There are so many parameters the PCM controls on the L-67, it is unreal. Every little thing like weather, gas grade, ect has a effect on the tuning on the setup. Most people that run OBD1 wiring run a flashed prom that is a one time thing and thats it. While it does run the car and you think it runs 100%, you would be suprised how off the tune might be once you start scanning all the parameters. If you ever start doing heavy MODs(cam, TB upgrade, injectors, ect) you will see that running it with just a burnt prom will be a nightmare. While the prom can be flashed to match the MODs you have added, without a real time run with in car tuning, it will never be right. I had my car tuned several months back before my dyno run, everything looked good(O2s, LTFTs, ect). Now that the weather has cooled of quite a bit my LTFTs are in the negatives now, which changes many other parameters. I am going back for another tune in a few weeks to get this corrected. I am planning on buying a tuner in the near future so I can make the changes when they are needed. Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with running OBD1 but OBD2 is much more advanced and will get more out of a setup.

Thanks.....
What ratio were those?

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Yes what you where getting was KR from the low octane gas that was used. I did the same thing one time on accident and was scanning at the time. No sooner than I pulled out of the gas station and gave it a little gas, I was getting 3* of KR. This was just from running the lower octane gas by mistake. It doesnt take much to alter the fueling on the 3800 to cause all kinds of trouble. Like I said in my copy/paste post, ever little thing changes the way the motor run. You mentioned something about getting some modded rockers, very good upgrade for the 3800. I ran RR Intense Gen 1 rockers on my first auto swap and they made a noticable diffferance in the upper end and on the KR I was having at the time. I dont think by adding them that it would alter the tune enough to cause any issue. If you get a set, look for the Intense Gen 1 RR rocker, I dont recommend the Gen 3 sets, there have been issues with them. The Gen 1s are cheap these days when they pop up on CGP.

[This message has been edited by ohio86se (edited 11-08-2006).]

I like both obd 1 and obd 2 if I was not using a 4t65hd transmission I would of went with obd 1, The reason for using obd 1 is way less wiring on the swap and being able to get a number of different chips burned by darth without sending the entire computer some where., Tuning software is a bit cheaper to. I like the obd 2 because I can use my scan guage to scan for kr. You can also fool with the shift paramaters on the 4t65 hd transmission, My scan guage also picks up DTCs very very quick, Like the other day I get a p 107 and p 1107 then my boost guage stops working, I already knew my map sensor was fraged .


If tunned right both obd 1 and obd 2 are great. And a bad tuned obd 2 will run just as bad as a badly tuned obd 1.

Jb1 is right. There are a few emulators out there for OBD1 that you can tune ON THE FLY with no pcm restart. I'm not into OBD2, but I don't think you can do that. I don't know how many more sensor parameters there are with OBD2 vs OBD1 but I don't think OBD1 is any less capable of reaching the same numbers as an OBD2 pcm on the same exact motor. OBD2 looks for two knocks sensors and two O2 sensors, but most people disable the 2nd O2. I guess its better to have that 2nd knock. I know OBD2 uses map and MAF, but what does the pcm do for driveability with the MAP signal?

I like the communication advantages with the OBD2, but I don't see any real tuning or hp advantages otherwise. We have two 3800sc cars in the family, one is an OBD2/4t65E-HD and the other is a OBD1/isuzu. If I didn't know the trans pcm requirements, you would never know that they weren't using the same pcm. They both run just as well as the other and have the same behavior throughout.

So how do I monitor KR with OBD1?

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" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"

I use an AutoXray handheld, I'm working on getting my Laptop software & cable functioning (Both TunerPro RT & CarBytes, both are free), or OTC Monitor 4000 Enhanced / OTC Enhanced Monitor. There are also Matco, MAC, and Cornwell, which are all handheld scanners that will work. I'm sure there are others just not off the top of my head. The AutoXray is the cheapest and I got mine off ebay for like $70. Its the "EZ Link" model, avoid the XP240 which I don't think will work properly (it might with some software upgrade, but I haven't had much luck)

The Laptop software is a better option since the interface and logging capibilites are better, plus its nice looking at a large screen.

http://www.efilive.com/downloads/index.html For the CarBytes software
http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/ For the TunerPro software (Preferred)

Both of these will require ALDL definition files which you either need to find or create.

Cable schematics can be found at
http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/aldl8192/8192hw.htm

Or you can buy them cheaply from
http://mastach.com/

There is also this circuit which may work, but I've heard it being a crude design

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 11-08-2006).]

for on the fly tuning, expect to spend somewhere around $200.

quote The reason for using obd 1 is way less wiring on the swap and being able to get a number of different chips burned by darth without sending the entire computer some where

There is in now way less wiring on a obd1 swap then there is on a obd2 swap, as they use the same excat sensors. If there was less wiring you would simply be eliminating sensors from the swap.

Sending PCM's / proms away is in no way a good way to tune a car as discussed earlier. The fact that a prom is smaller is a very insignificant way to compare the practicality of using obd1 or 2. If downtime is a problem then you could allways get an extra pcm, as they are roughly $15, which isnt much different than what a obd1 prom would cost.

quote And a bad tuned obd 2 will run just as bad as a badly tuned obd 1.

If you have a stock motor, then obd2 will automaticly have the absolute best tune any 3800 has ever had (stock from gm), and if a stock motor is obd1, then it is GARENTEED to have a bad tune, simply because the time was not spent to tune it effectivly (IE gm spent thousands of man hours tuning the l67 with obd2, and 0 with obd1).

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: If you have a stock motor, then obd2 will automaticly have the absolute best tune any 3800 has ever had (stock from gm), and if a stock motor is obd1, then it is GARENTEED to have a bad tune, simply because the time was not spent to tune it effectivly (IE gm spent thousands of man hours tuning the l67 with obd2, and 0 with obd1).

How many people do you think are running an OBD1 pcm on S2 3800sc with STOCK tune? And you're saying my car is "GARENTEED" to have a bad tune just because GM didn't do it?

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 11-08-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: How many people do you think are running an OBD1 pcm on S2 3800sc with STOCK tune? And you're saying my car is "GARENTEED" to have a bad tune just because GM didn't do it?

Asuming that copy and pasting in the tables they used with obd2 onto the obd1 hardware then yes, I can infer that. Also by bad I mean in direct comparison to the stock setup on obd2. I would like to be proven otherwise.

basicly I see it this way, the absolute best engine managment options using stock aplications rank like this.

1. stock motor, stock obd2 file.
2. motor non native to the computer controling it, be it modded series 2 setups running obd1 or 2, or stock setups using obd1.

Basicly I think nothing can come close to what the absolute stock on stock setup can provide, in a realistic sense.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 11-08-2006).]

For one important thing... if you are running a 4T65eHD automatic on the 3800sc, you are running OBDII.... you need the PCM to shift the transmission...

While it was commented as BS to the tables in OBDI vs OBDII user interface, you should get yourself TunerCat and the definition file for OBDI, and then get yourself HPTuners..... open the tables up and decide what is 'right' in tuning the IFR to work with a mod'ed 3800sc... I can see if you are completely stock in a 3800sc and you get a OBDI setup to start the engine, and get down the road, then fine. Its not for the 'performance' side of things for the S2 and S3 engines..

I have the table screen shots on this ( ok, I cannot find them however ), as I do have TunerCat, HPTuners, DHP PowrTuner, EFILive, and even two of GM's software tools.

There are 4000 plus parameters in the OBDII PCM. Do we need them all? NO.... We need the important ones that are fuel management, and we need the ones for the automatic transmissions.. The issue is that we as tuners with all these nice software tools do not have access to the whole PCM tables and switches. HP Tuners brags that they give you 200 there about parameter changes. 200 out of 4000? Wow, what are we missing. Well, I know for a fact that DHP version 1 PCM's have parameters adjusted for shifting a 4T65eHD that neither HPT nor even PT allow the consumer to change. How did DHP do it then? They have CalTools and the definition files for the 3800sc's. They can see the 4000 plus parameters, and they do not offer to change all the necessary ones for people. I managed to hack the version 1 PCM, and even duplicate it now if I wanted to. I can reset all the things that they disabled so the BIN was useless to others if you did manage to download it from the PCM.

I could write a book on all this, as I have studied it extensively. It not only takes 100's of hours to learn, but 10's of thousands of dollars. I have in tuning/hacking software and hardware about $20k.... I have programmed about 150 PCM's since I started April of 04... Wow, at $125 times 150 PCM's is $18,750.... I finally break even maybe next year..

Oh, please do not confuse the level of programming I am referring to at 10's of thousands of $$$$$... it is far more than just buying HPTuners and opening your BIN file in the editor... is it really needed ? No, guess not for most people.

Well, that is about all I have to say about what is better or whatever.. it usually comes down to your pocket book in the end... do you want to spend the $$$$ for performance and learning, or just get the thing running and driving...

Ok, I was done but I have just read some more of this thread…

You cannot use the parameters from the OBDII tables to the OBDI tables… Zero… no way… The IFR adjustment is completely different between them.

The TUNE…. The Calibration is the correct word. The fuel management vs transmission management is the 2 goals… It’s a powertrain.. I don’t care if you are running a manual transmission, you need to have a calibration that matches a clutched application. It has come up about ….. My 3800 dies when I push in the clutch… Tim was right on about the IAC… it is the problem. He was right about the VSS, but VSS does just a little more than let the PCM know what speed to display on the speedometer, and control IAC…

OBDI does NOT have a true IFR table. You use the MAF to spoof the injection fuel rate. Well, now the problem is the S1 MAF is rated/programmed at the OS level to 10400 hertz. Oops…. GM changed the sensor on the S2 engine/throttle body to read up to 11,500 hertz, and I now know the code at the OS level is different for the temperature algorithm of the sensor itself…

This all gets to be to technical and becomes a who cares when you cant understand what the PCM is doing for an engine. You needed to tune carburetors for about 10 years and fight those darn things every time the temperature swing 20 degrees from whatever you tuned it at on that given moment. I worked at Haltech Electronics in 1992 to 1994 helping them with the development of EFI on motorcycle engines. Read this nice article if you never happen to see it on my website http://www.fastfieros.com/haltech_efi_relationship.htm

No where in this posting did I say you ‘have’ to run OBDII to be the best at the tune that is right for your S2 or S3 engine. But it sure would be easier for the PCM to run the engine and make adjustments to the weather, altitude, and that darn fuel we have to live with at the pump…
Ooops... I was wrong about the hertz on OBDI.. I have corrected it...

Ok, now I know why I was a little wrong about the hertz... I had forgot the OBDI starts at 2k.... the OBDII starts at 1500 Hz...

I have the screen shots with my camera now.. toooo many laptops around here with all these software tools scrattered out....












Loyde

[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 11-08-2006).]

Good to get as much knowledge into this post as possible, thanks Loyde for taking the time to write that.

I did find this interesting, "OBDI does NOT have a true IFR table. You use the MAF to spoof the injection fuel rate. Well, now the problem is the S1 MAF is rated/programmed at the OS level to 10000 hertz. Oops…. GM changed the sensor on the S2 engine/throttle body to read up to 11,500 hertz, and I now know the code at the OS level is different for the temperature algorithm of the sensor itself… "

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 11-08-2006).]

quote Originally posted by ohio86se: Thanks..... What ratio were those?

They are 1.9 RR rocker and you will notice the gain right off the bat. ZZP sells 1.9s also and havent heard anything bad about them, they just cost more. Then again they are new and well worth it if you dont want to go into a cam install.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: They are 1.9 RR rocker and you will notice the gain right off the bat. ZZP sells 1.9s also and havent heard anything bad about them, they just cost more. Then again they are new and well worth it if you dont want to go into a cam install.

BEWARE,,, that 1.8 and 1.9 rockers are hard on stock springs. ZZP will even admit you should not mod a 95k and above mileage engine with these rockers on stock springs... If you have a low mile motor, and lift the stock sping hard, you can break it with long term use.

Use the proper performance mod.... camshaft it .... The VS cam has great success on stock springs, but again, beware on high mile motors. XP cam, you better be using LS1 or comp cam 105's springs...

Loyde

[This message has been edited by FastFieros (edited 11-08-2006).]

If you are using a 4T65-E HD trans, and you want the computer to properly interface with it, then you must run an OBD-2 PCM.

As far as performance is concerned, I haven't found any evidence that suggests OBD-2 is capable of allowing an engine to perform better than an OBD-1 system. I am aware that comparisons have been made as to how many parameters can be adjusted between the two systems and how some of the functions and calculations are made differently between the two systems. But you need to keep in mind that more isn't always better. Consider this fact: There are plenty of sub 9 sec Turbo Buick V6's running around out there on the stock 87 or older ECMs that use a 4kb chip. Yes, these cars are streetable. (late OBD-1's are 64kb and most OBD-2's are 512kb's).

Specifically talking about OBD-1 vs. OBD-2 concerning the 3800 Series II engines, it is all going to boil down to what trans you want to use and what your tuner's experience level is as well as a couple of other minor things. For instance, the only real-time tuning option out there right now for the 3800 will ONLY work with the OBD-1 systems. I expect a real-time tuning solution to be released for the OBD-2 systems within the next couple of years, but understand that it will come in the form of a butchered PCM which will be expensive due to hardware costs. Currently there is a real-time tuning solution available for the OBD-2 based LSx PCMs and the cost of the hardware alone is $489.00 not including the work to install it into your PCM plus the cost of the tuning software. If you are using OBD-1 you can get online with real-time tuning for as cheaply as $175.00.

Now some people are trying to make hey out of certain limitations they say OBD-1 has. Well there are some limitations and here is what they are... First off, the OBD-1 3800 PCM's are OS (operating system) software limited to a 6400rpm rev limiter. Currently, it can be disabled, however. However, as more research is done into the source code for the OBD-1 systems it is likely a fix will be found for the rev limiter limitation. The OS in the OBD-1 systems will also not support a 4T65-E transmission because there is no output control in the software for the 65-E's pressure control solenoid (PCS), nor is there any on-board driver capable of controlling a PCS present in the OBD-1 PCM.

Now concerning the injector calculations and MAF tables, I have never had any problem tuning ANY 3800 Series II SC or Turbocharged engine with an OBD-1 system. You just have to know what you are doing and have some experience with OBD-1 systems. The MAF sensor reading capabilities of the OBD-1 PCMs have a slightly less window (or range) of operation than OBD-2 systems, however, this can easily be overcome by the use of a larger (or recalibrated) MAF sensor and/or use of an aftermarket MAF-tuning device. OBD-2 systems have been shown to reach the limit of their capabilities concerning the stock MAF sensor on modded engines so keep this in mind as well.

One product on the market right now that is showing great results is the MAF Translator Gen II and PRO. These MAF tuning devices intercept the signal from the MAF and alter it before sending it out to the PCM according to settings and wideband O2 sensor inputs to the MAF Translator unit. One very exciting thing it can do is provide your engine with whatever AFR you specify (say a 12.0:1 AFR for example) at WOT and it will automatically do what it needs to do to the MAF signal going to the PCM to attain that preset AFR regardless of conditions. The PRO unit can even operate in speed density mode and work with up to a 5-bar MAP sensor (IIRC).

Now concerning the manual trans stalling issues, I have completely fixed this issue with all of my OBD-1 chips. I found a table in the stock OBD-1 programming that is called "Command Air Flow". Basically what this table does is tell the PCM what the airflow should be to the engine at closed throttle based on RPM and current gear. Correct adjustments to this table have proven to smooth out idle surge and eliminate stalling issues experienced by some people trying to use manual transmissions with these computers. I am 95% sure the OBD-2 systems also have a table similar to this, but I don't think the tuning software that is currently available has this table defined yet, which brings me to my next point...

I own TunerCat and used to own DHP Powrtuner. I have also used HP Tuners. The makers of DHP and HP Tuners cater to people who own vehicles with original equipment engines. This means they don't really cater to people who have engine or transmission swaps and personal experience has proven that they don't like to support such platforms, therefore the software development they have available isn't geared toward swappers; at least not in a primary sense. Tunercat on the other hand has outstanding customer support and even has a piece of software available that allows you to add/change parameters to their OBD-1 tuning programs! This means that if you got ahold of some disassembly code for the OBD-1 3800 you could add any tables you wanted to, to their tuning program. HP Tuners nor DHP officially supports or allows the end user to alter their tuning programs in this way. This means any "additions" you want to make to their tuning program is going to amount to an illegal hack of their copyrighted software. Of course if you want to stare at hundreds and thousands of pages of hex code and make changes to the programming just using a basic 3rd party's hex editor, then that can be a legal option for you.

Bottom line here is OBD-2 isn't necessarily better than OBD-1. I have been tuning factory GM OBD-1 systems since 1998 and OBD-2 systems since 2004. Each system has it's pros and cons, but to say one system is better for engine performance than another is hogwash. Again, there are street-driven turbo regals out there running 9 sec and faster in the 1/4 mile on 80's computers that used 70's technology.

-ryan

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power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Custom Computer Tuning | Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | www.gmtuners.com

the whole reason I was posting so much on this was to get a straight answer out of you Ryan. I dont like talking about things that I dont have hands on experience with.

I totally agree that the obd2 tuning packages are not to flexable.

I really want to know if it is possible for the average weekend warrior can do accurate VE and SD tuning with limited software and hardware on obd1. HPtuners makes this quite easy, with any number of upgrades, and power tuner isnt to far behind. I had suspision that the maf sensor was missing some of the resolution availible on the obd2 system also. I agree that there are ways around it, but hey I can say thats an advantage right there.

I still really want to stand by my statment that stock obd2 on a stock l67 offers a better, and or more robust out of the box tune compared to a modified obd1 conversion.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I totally agree that the obd2 tuning packages are not to flexable. I really want to know if it is possible for the average weekend warrior can do accurate VE and SD tuning with limited software and hardware on obd1. HPtuners makes this quite easy, with any number of upgrades, and power tuner isnt to far behind. I had suspision that the maf sensor was missing some of the resolution availible on the obd2 system also. I agree that there are ways around it, but hey I can say thats an advantage right there. I still really want to stand by my statment that stock obd2 on a stock l67 offers a better, and or more robust out of the box tune compared to a modified obd1 conversion.

I don't want you to misunderstand my views on OBD-2 systems. They work well for what they are supposed to do. But you need to understand that the programming in the OBD-2 systems is 8 times larger than the OBD-1 systems because there is a lot more emissions and subsystems BS existant in OBD-2 systems than there was in the OBD-1 systems. Perhaps that is why there are many more parameters to adjust in the OBD-2 systems vs. OBD-1.

Concening your comment about out-of-the-box tuning, you are probably correct. For the inexperienced tuner, it would be easier to tune an OBD-2 computer with a 96-up L67 vs. trying to learn how to do it form scratch with an OBD-1 system. However, don't misunderstand; if you have a radical application, no matter what computer system you are using it is going to require quite a lot of time to tune in just right. I have learned a lot about the OBD-1 3800 PCMs, probably more than most people. I have a copy of the source code and I am constantly adding tables and tunable parameters to my tuning software so I can make more changes to the chip program. Would most people need all of these extra tables I have added? Probably not. But I am just pushing the envelope with this system to see how far it can go and what it can do. What's really nice is when you have an emulator and can sit there and make changes in real time that take effect immediately. Talk about instant gratification!

Now concerning all of this talk about mail-order chips and what not. Let me tell you something. ANY mail-order tune/chip probably isn't going to be perfect on the first try. However, simple tunes like removing trouble codes and changing a few settings shouldn't give experienced tuners any trouble. I'm sad to say there are pleanty of people who have gotten mail-order OBD-2 PCMs from various vendors and aren't happy with them, and these were pretty straight-forward, lightly modded applications. I know a few, personally. I could understand if the application was much more radical, since I do mail order chips (and OBD-2 PCMs) and know how hard it is to get a tune right, espeically when you can't tune on the car in-person. But even then, it isn't impossible. A little scan data goes a long way, which is why I pretty much make it a requirement for all of my customers running mildly to highly modified applications. The key is getting the right scan data during the problem areas of engine operation so you can see what is going on, or going wrong. Something to keep in mind is the more mods and the more radical of mods done to the engine, the more attention that is going to need to be given to the tuning. Most vendors don't like to spend a lot of time on any one customer. You would think for the money they charge for a custom program, they would. But I'm not one of those guys.

My upgrade plans also include the springs.
Thanks

quote Originally posted by FastFieros: BEWARE,,, that 1.8 and 1.9 rockers are hard on stock springs. ZZP will even admit you should not mod a 95k and above mileage engine with these rockers on stock springs... If you have a low mile motor, and lift the stock sping hard, you can break it with long term use. Use the proper performance mod.... camshaft it .... The VS cam has great success on stock springs, but again, beware on high mile motors. XP cam, you better be using LS1 or comp cam 105's springs... Loyde

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: I use an AutoXray handheld, I'm working on getting my Laptop software & cable functioning (Both TunerPro RT & CarBytes, both are free), or OTC Monitor 4000 Enhanced / OTC Enhanced Monitor. There are also Matco, MAC, and Cornwell, which are all handheld scanners that will work. I'm sure there are others just not off the top of my head. The AutoXray is the cheapest and I got mine off ebay for like $70. Its the "EZ Link" model, avoid the XP240 which I don't think will work properly (it might with some software upgrade, but I haven't had much luck) The Laptop software is a better option since the interface and logging capibilites are better, plus its nice looking at a large screen. http://www.efilive.com/downloads/index.html For the CarBytes software http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/ For the TunerPro software (Preferred) Both of these will require ALDL definition files which you either need to find or create. Cable schematics can be found at http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/aldl8192/8192hw.htm Or you can buy them cheaply from http://mastach.com/ There is also this circuit which may work, but I've heard it being a crude design

Could I use the same definition files that would be used for EFILive?

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" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"

I wouldn't want to be tuning anything without run files in my grubby paws to base a tune off of. Doesn't matter if it's obd1/obd2 or an aftermarket system.

Last group of highly modified cars that got done at our shop had a guy fly in from NY to help work the final tunes on them. Usually George and the guys work the tunes out on the dyno themselves maybe tossing the run files out for feedback from some of his friends that also work with the same software and similar cars. OBD2 has no prom that gets swapped out, so you don't have to open the PCM up each time. As others have stated, there is WAY more stuff in OBD2, in 20 years some will be yearning for the days when it was so simple... but at the moment there is a ton of learning going on in the aftermarket as tuners try to figure out what does what... without blowing up your car

quote Originally posted by Scott-Wa: I wouldn't want to be tuning anything without run files in my grubby paws to base a tune off of. Doesn't matter if it's obd1/obd2 or an aftermarket system. Last group of highly modified cars that got done at our shop had a guy fly in from NY to help work the final tunes on them. Usually George and the guys work the tunes out on the dyno themselves maybe tossing the run files out for feedback from some of his friends that also work with the same software and similar cars. OBD2 has no prom that gets swapped out, so you don't have to open the PCM up each time. As others have stated, there is WAY more stuff in OBD2, in 20 years some will be yearning for the days when it was so simple... but at the moment there is a ton of learning going on in the aftermarket as tuners try to figure out what does what... without blowing up your car

I have no plans on tuning myself as I have stated in my intial post. I was just interested in scanning to otain data.
I would leave the tunning up to the experts.

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" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"

I have a specific question for lloyde

I had some experience last month doing a SD tune on a pcm done by you. I was interested why you didnt disable trq managment and just changed the vss to not read correctly. I understand that by turning the vss basicly off, that the torque managment settings wouldnt come into play at all. So I was curious what would happen if I set the VSS correctly, and disbled torque managment, and I was quite satisfied with the way the fueling worked. I actually had to take out most of my VE corrections and start over.

Ohio86SE, I have my definition files for TunerProRT up and running. There are a few changes I want to make before I release the one I've been working on, but I was wondering if you played with it at all? If you want I can talk you through setting one up or share what I have so far.

Mine will scan, log, etc, but its not how I want it yet. I'm going to move some things around and do some renaming but its atleast working for datalog. I have an XML file done and my BIN scanned, but i can't do any tuning yet until I pick up the Ostrich. Here is a little sample of how I have it layed out..

PM sent

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: Ohio86SE, I have my definition files for TunerProRT up and running. There are a few changes I want to make before I release the one I've been working on, but I was wondering if you played with it at all? If you want I can talk you through setting one up or share what I have so far. Mine will scan, log, etc, but its not how I want it yet. I'm going to move some things around and do some renaming but its atleast working for datalog. I have an XML file done and my BIN scanned, but i can't do any tuning yet until I pick up the Ostrich. Here is a little sample of how I have it layed out..

ill be doing a scan this morning and post

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" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"