What would be the pros and cons of these two kits?

From what I know, Pros and cons...

Archie's kit is more used, more info and support available
Street dreams is cheaper
Archie uses high torque aftermarket starters
Street Dreams uses cheaper off the shelf Nissan starters
Archie's starter mount is adjustable and must be set right
Street Dreams starter mount is "set" and not adjustable
Archie has more options+parts available
Street Dreams flywheel can not accept some clutches (with large dampner springs)
Archie kits have thick adaptor plates (espescially his Automatic kit)...complicating the already tight clearance issues
Street dreams kit requires block notching with automatic trans.

street dreams flywheel and adaptor

[This message has been edited by v8fiero400 (edited 12-01-2005).]

I don't know of anyone in business who is more helpful or accessible than Archie. That to me was worth a lot of value when I did my v8 conversion. Unless you are a master mechanic and in no way will need the help of the supplier of your kit, go with Archie.

Coming up on three years of having NO PROBLEMS with Archies kit. Archie installed the engine and would do it again in a heartbeat.

I have a V8 Archie kit with a automatic trans no problem with install or product . I brought the econo. kit and had no problems with finding the parts with the list that Archie gives you . And when I had any questions I called Archie and he would answer them with no problems . As long as you watch his video and read the instrutions you'll be fine . Go with Archie you won't regret it .

quote Originally posted by v8fiero400: From what I know, Pros and cons... Archie's kit is more used, more info and support available Street dreams is cheaper Archie uses high torque aftermarket starters Street Dreams uses cheaper off the shelf Nissan starters Archie's starter mount is adjustable and must be set right Street Dreams starter mount is "set" and not adjustable Archie has more options+parts available Street Dreams flywheel can not accept some clutches (with large dampner springs) Archie kits have thick adaptor plates (espescially his Automatic kit)...complicating the already tight clearance issues Street dreams kit requires block notching with automatic trans. street dreams flywheel and adaptor

Why is Street Dreams able to use a thinner plate? Is it strong enough?

I am not the engineer for these V8 kits, but I have used both kits and see why there may be differences.

Archies 153 tooth flywheel is a little larger than the Fiero flywheel and will not fit inside the Fiero transmission. If you look at the picture you can see that the adapter plate on the Archie kit extends out past the ring gear so that the transmission will not hit this larger diameter ring gear. The Street Dreams flywheel is the same diameter as an OEM Fiero flywheel, so it will fit inside the transmission, and so they can get away with a thinner adapter plate. But they made it so thin that the flywheel also has to be very compact. The flywheel bolts have to be tapered and flat to clear the clutch disc.

Archies automatic adapter is VERY thick because he uses an adapter sandwiched between a stock fiero flexplate and the Chevy crankshaft flange.

[This message has been edited by v8fiero400 (edited 12-23-2005).]

I am using a newer (one piece rear main seal block). These newer engines require external balance flywheels. Do the flywheels on any these kits need to be balanced or are they pre-balanced?.... and what kind of starter exactly is used on the Street Dreams kit?

The Street Dreams / Zumalt / Corson / HTD Eliminator style kits use an 84 Nissan Maxima (or equivalent) starter. It is an extremely common Nippondenso style starter that a lot of Asian cars used. The Archie kit uses just about any aftermarket high-torque mini starter, but the Hitachi style fits the best.

P.S. Archie's kit was originally designed to accept the early (55-57) Chevy V8 starter, but he didn't go with that in the end because you would have to modify the engine cradle for solenoid clearance. I guess you could still use that starter if you drill and tap the holes in the adapter plate. Those starters are cheap and plentiful, but are heavy and the mounting ears are tiny and are prone to breaking. (I tried one on my semi home-brew kit and broke it. Ended up going with the Powermaster mini starter.)

------------------
1986 SE 350 V8

The adapter plate thickness is determined by the distance the crankshaft protrudes from the blocks trans mounting surface and the amount of clearance you want between the clutch springs and the flywheel mounting bolts. Everything was setup for the old style SBC's with the two piece rear main seal.
When they started using the one piece rear main seal engines they just made a flywheel that fit with the present trans adapter plate. There is not much extra to be gained by redesigning the whole kit to get a slightly thinner adapter plate.

quote Originally posted by Joe Carburetor: I am using a newer (one piece rear main seal block). These newer engines require external balance flywheels. Do the flywheels on any these kits need to be balanced or are they pre-balanced?.... and what kind of starter exactly is used on the Street Dreams kit?

I am not sure about the Archie kit but I know the Streat Dreams kit has the flywheel pre-balanced for 86 and newer engines.....here is a pic of the inner side of a Street Dreams flywheel for the one piece rear main seal SBC. You can see that it has been "balanced" for those engines

[This message has been edited by v8fiero400 (edited 12-21-2005).]

In my Automotive Technology Shop at Watauga High Shcool, in Boone, NC we used an Archie kit.The kit and support were invaluable. 14 thru 18 year old kids installed the kit in an 87 GT. It was a fantastic project and is on the road daily. The only problem was a leaky radiator after 1 year and loud exhaust. Radiator was fixed in the welding shop at the high school and we manufactured a good exhaust with Sanderson Headers and Spintech muffler. Quite a sanitary installation. NASCAR has some good mechanics on the way. Archie is the ONLY way to go!!!

Yea, I would say overall quality on the Archie kit is better..... The adapter plates on the Street Dreams kit is much thinner and so there is less thread available to bolt on the transmission. Be careful not to overtighten bolts that screw into the plate. Or better yet... it is better to install studs on the adapter plate and use nuts to tighten the transmission on the plate. The flywheel uses tapered bolts for clearance...I learned you must use high quality allen sockets to tighten and loosen these bolts (Do not use allen L wrenches) or they will get stripped and then it is a pain in the butt to remove these if that happens, and it is hard to find replacement tapered bolts with the right thread. (Special order stuff)

But one advantage of using the thinner plate would be the near one inch clearance difference on the pulley side of the engine.... a real plus when trying to get a Chevy to fit in a Fiero.

[This message has been edited by v8fiero400 (edited 12-21-2005).]

The only part about Archies kit that makes me concider the Street Dreams (I've used both kits) is the starter. that Powermaster that Archie uses is really a poor design IMHO. If only Archie would re-design that part of his kit it would be no contest for me.
To Archies credit, I believe he designed his kit with a different starter in mind, but it's not available anymore.... but still....

Russ

quote Originally posted by Russ544: The only part about Archies kit that makes me concider the Street Dreams (I've used both kits) is the starter. that Powermaster that Archie uses is really a poor design IMHO. If only Archie would re-design that part of his kit it would be no contest for me. To Archies credit, I believe he designed his kit with a different starter in mind, but it's not available anymore.... but still.... Russ

That seems to be the biggest complaint with Archies kit. Starter issues.
Maybe because the starter doesn't get properly mounted sometimes?

[This message has been edited by Joe Carburetor (edited 12-21-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Joe Carburetor: That seems to be the biggest complaint with Archies kit. Starter issues. Maybe because the starter doesn't get properly mounted sometimes?

I'm sure that's the case in some installations, as that is a critical issue, but when the pinion is hung out so far unsupported it's bound to wobble around in use, which actually makes satisfactory adjustment imposible. when I set up the starter on my SBC with Archie kit I noticed you could move the pinion sideways a ton with just finger pressure. so far so good in 2 years and 1200 or so miles but I do expect problems eventually.

quote Originally posted by Russ544: I'm sure that's the case in some installations, as that is a critical issue, but when the pinion is hung out so far unsupported it's bound to wobble around in use, which actually makes satisfactory adjustment imposible. when I set up the starter on my SBC with Archie kit I noticed you could move the pinion sideways a ton with just finger pressure. so far so good in 2 years and 1200 or so miles but I do expect problems eventually.

OK, thanks for your input I think I will probably get a CSI or Tilton Starter if I get the Archie kit. I don't want to mess around with a cheap starter that might mess up the flywheel teeth.

Which brings me to another question,
Has anybody had problems with the Nissan starter starting a Chevy V8??

And also, I have been reading the Streat Dreams web site, and it says that a 92 S-10 clutch set should be used with thier flywheel........Does that mean that the Fiero clutch will not fit??

[This message has been edited by Joe Carburetor (edited 12-21-2005).]

All fiero clutches and S-10 (2.8) clutches will fit.

part # 1910......The 8.5 inch 4 cylinder clutch is NOT a good choice. It has a real light pedal "feel". But it slips way to easy with a V8

part # 31165..... The 9 inch V6 fiero clutch ususally holds fine unless you have a high power modified V8.

part # 1904..... The S-10 clutch is usually 9.5 inches (depending where you get it from). It is probably the strongest "stock" clutch that will fit in the Fiero transmission.

All these ctuches have the same pressure plate bolt pattern all fit in the fiero trans. but are quite a bit different otherwise.
All these clutches are interchangeable as long as you use the correct throwout bearing for the transmission.

Three years and 27,000 miles later,same starter on a Archie installed SBC.

In this thread Archie talks about some of the flaws of the Zumalt kit (which Stream Dreams is based on). The only difference now, is that Streat Dreams fixed the torque convertor interference problem.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20040710-2-019134.html

page 2 talks about the Automatic interference problems....
page 3 talks about the flywheel bolt problems.

[This message has been edited by v8fiero400 (edited 12-22-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Joe Carburetor: OK, thanks for your input I think I will probably get a CSI or Tilton Starter if I get the Archie kit. I don't want to mess around with a cheap starter that might mess up the flywheel teeth. Which brings me to another question, Has anybody had problems with the Nissan starter starting a Chevy V8??

An "off the shelf" starter can be used on Archie's kit too. I use a starter from a 1956 straight shift chevy truck with my kit. The selenoid winds up on the bottom which is fisically wrong but it works. Archie's kit was machined well enough that I centered the starter nose in position on Archie's plate then drilled holes to tap. Then I used 3 grade 8 1/4" bolts to mount the starter. With the 1/4" bolts I had enough room for adjustments if needed.

Well, im not a V8 owner or anything but ive been around a lot of them and the owners. Ive also seen archie in action and i'd have to say that, although more expensive, you'd be a lot smarter to go with archies kit. He has tons of parts, videos, and he helps you when you need it. You can find him at most all the Fiero shows in person too which says something about his product I think. He has no reason to hide. He's been around a long time and that also says something for his product.
Ive also known the guy for a few years now and ive never seen or heard him not try and help his customers. He's excited about the shows and the people at them whether they're V8 owners or not. I also really believe he tries very hard to put out a quality product. Heck, he even goes out of his way to try and help Fiero owners that arent his customers too. Ive seen that in person many times.
If I remember correctly, archies been doing V8 conversions since 88. What happened to Zumwalt? Anyone talk to him at a show before? Makes ya think doesn't it? Just my opinion though.
Also remember, im a TDC guy so I have no reason to give the guy props he doesn't deserve.

------------------

quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: Well, im not a V8 owner or anything but ive been around a lot of them and the owners. Ive also seen archie in action and i'd have to say that, although more expensive, you'd be a lot smarter to go with archies kit. He has tons of parts, videos, and he helps you when you need it. You can find him at most all the Fiero shows in person too which says something about his product I think. He has no reason to hide. He's been around a long time and that also says something for his product. Ive also known the guy for a few years now and ive never seen or heard him not try and help his customers. He's excited about the shows and the people at them whether they're V8 owners or not. I also really believe he tries very hard to put out a quality product. Heck, he even goes out of his way to try and help Fiero owners that arent his customers too. Ive seen that in person many times. If I remember correctly, archies been doing V8 conversions since 88. What happened to Zumwalt? Anyone talk to him at a show before? Makes ya think doesn't it? Just my opinion though. Also remember, im a TDC guy so I have no reason to give the guy props he doesn't deserve.

I don't think anyone has said that Archie isn't the most helpfull v-8 guy out there. that's true and understood. but the question posed was what the pros and cons of each style kit are.
Also, wile it's true that Zumalt is long gone (and not particularly missed), Street dreams is alive and kicking, as well as making a viable sbc kit with much higher quality than Zumalt ever thought of.
If a person is doing their first SBC swap then Archie is certainly going to be a huge asset, but when you take that out of the equation then different options can be looked at depending on your particular needs and wants. Street Dreams will not be there to hold your hand however. that's a fact.

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-22-2005).]

Just from what I've seen of both kits, I'd never even consider a Z style kit because of the flywheel bolts. Archie covered why this is an issue in the link posted above. If you don't have some engineering backround, you may not understand why it's a big deal - but it is. Using the chamfered bolts changes how the load is distributed. The bolt is no longer solely in tension, there are side loads introduced as well.

Can a Z kit be made to work successfully? Sure. Would I ever use one? No way, not even for free.

quote Originally posted by Russ544: I don't think anyone has said that Archie isn't the most helpfull v-8 guy out there. that's true and understood. but the question posed was what the pros and cons of each style kit are. Also, wile it's true that Zumalt is long gone (and not particularly missed), Street dreams is alive and kicking, as well as making a viable sbc kit with much higher quality than Zumalt ever thought of. If a person is doing their first SBC swap then Archie is certainly going to be a huge asset, but when you take that out of the equation then different options can be looked at depending on your particular needs and wants. Street Dreams will not be there to hold your hand. that's a fact.

Not sure why you're arguing with me but let me try and explain why i said what i said;
The thing is, Archie IS part of the equation when buying a V8 kit. His help, parts availability, and experience are THERE for anyone doing this swap so it most certainly is a very important thing to consider. It is also important not to miss the point im making by archie being there and having been there for soooo long. His stuff works. Pure and simple. He is at these shows and is very high profile simply because he has no reason not to be which means again; his stuff works. If it didn't, i don't think he'd be so high profile. That's what i was saying and it is very important to consider. Years of his stuff working without any change of names or slipping into the shadows means something if you think about it. It works and he's proud of the product not to mention that he has customers who have had their cars running for long periods of time (read years) and is still around. Hopfully that explains what i was saying better now.

------------------

Sorry Dave. I didn't mean to sound argumentative. I'm sure you're right that Archie is one of the "pros" of the pro/con equation.

Formula88, Are you an engineer?

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-22-2005).]

Here are some good pics of the Archie automatic kit found on another thread..... as you can see the adapter plate is VERY thick.....

And unless you are going with the weak th125, block clearancing will still be required no matter what kit is used.

Archies manual kit is a better choice for quality.

But for Automatics!...I think the Streat Dreams kit would be a much better option.

Thanks for all the input!

after reading about the possible problems with seized flywheel bolts, I don't think I would want the street dreams stick shift kit.
And the biggest reason would be that there is not a single decent thread about a buildup with this kit. If I was going automatic,, well then I'd probably go with them.

Hey Russ.....what kind of clutch are you running on your 4.3 ?

quote Originally posted by v8fiero400: Hey Russ.....what kind of clutch are you running on your 4.3 ?

Spec stage III .

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-28-2005).]

What happened to the pics of the Street Dreams adapter and flywheel?

quote Originally posted by HarryG: What happened to the pics of the Street Dreams adapter and flywheel?

Who are you asking Harry?
Here is a pic of the parts I started with on my 4.3 swap. I bought them from a guy who had to cancel his swap plans. I built my own mounts and the various acc brackets but used the adaptor, flywheel, and starter. I also used the front engine mount with some of modification for the V-6.

It certainly makes no difference to me what style kit a person uses, I just think we've been brainwashed into thinking the Archie kit is the end all setup and the SD style is trash, when in reality that's just not the case IMHO. I don't think either setup is perfect actually.

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-31-2005).]

Russ,
I was looking for the pics originally posted by v8fiero400.
Plan A was a PM to him asking the same question, but he has not replied.
Plan B was my post to the list. Should have directed it to him, but thought he might still be reading this post.
Sorry for causing the confusion!
Harry

I like the look and how well the 4.3 sits in there, I wanted to know what thpy of flywheel came with that kit and how well it woked, Also I see you used a HEI dis what carb did you use and did you have to mount it sideways? What other differences is there in a 4.3 swap than the 350 swap? What did you do for a remote oil system?

Thanks Looks good.

quote Originally posted by fiero87GTSB: I like the look and how well the 4.3 sits in there, I wanted to know what thpy of flywheel came with that kit and how well it woked, Also I see you used a HEI dis what carb did you use and did you have to mount it sideways? What other differences is there in a 4.3 swap than the 350 swap? What did you do for a remote oil system? Thanks Looks good.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20050119-1-044164.html

The flywheel is a custom unit made for this style kit for the sbc. The HEI is from an 85 4.3 but has been modified to run single wire (non computer). the carb is a 500cfm Edelbrock mounted on an Edelbrock manifold in the "std" fashion.

quote Originally posted by HarryG: What happened to the pics of the Street Dreams adapter and flywheel?

Ooops.......The pictures should appear now......

Russ...I have a 98 Blazer with a 4.3 and I like the way it gets around. I wondered if it would work in a Fiero. How does it feel to have that engine in there? Got any slips or memorable kills?

------------------
BLADE

'86SE
Engine rblt by Jasper
Hypertech Chip
Low-temp Fan Switch
Low-temp Thermostat
Grand Am rear brakes
215/45-17 front, 235/45-17 rear Falken Ziex ZE-502
Kenwood D-Mask Head Unit
Kenwood 859 5-ch Amp
Pioneer 4x10
Kenwood 4x6 plates
Rockford Fosgate 10" HE-2

Anybody have pictures of the adapter that is used to mount a Fiero flex plate on a V8?
There are no pictures of it on Archie's web site

I noticed a few people mentioned the starter problem on archies kit, i got around this by placing the .060 shim that came with my powermaster starter on, and from there used the starter block that archie suplied as a paper wieght and from there, i lined up the starter, and once in loction with the ring gear i clamped it and the drilled through the adapter plate and into the aluminum block of the starter(caution not to go to deep into the starter). I used a drill the size of my tap drill size for a 1/4 20NC , then I tapped the starter block and then drilled the aluminum adapter plate the next size up of a 1/4 inch. this has given me the freedom to remove the starter at anytime and always line up, with two 1/4 20nc bolts holding it on. I know it works cause I have removed the starter three times due to other problems, like leaking oil ine and clutch problems. This also let me use both in and out on the adapter plate on the oil adapter. and I still have 3/8 inch clearnce to my sub frame. So as to archies plate it would take a little redesign to make it easier, but I found this worked really well. You also my find you drill and tap into a hole in the starter block, put a bolt in and grind off the end and that will give you something to drill and tap into. I did this in my garage on a little drill press. Well thats how I went about it.

One good thing about Archies flywheel is that when I chewed up the flywheel teeth (from incorrectly spacing the starter)....It was pretty easy to change the ring gear. Just buy a chevy 153 tooth ring gear..... heat it up and tap it on. The Street Dreams ring gear is welded to the flywheel ........but then again I never had a problem chewing up teeth on a Street Dreams kit.