FRACK FRACK FRACK, and a double UGH to go along with it.



Nox were normal, as a matter of fact everything was normal except the hydrocarbons which were off the scale.

I was 10x max allowable and 50x the average. So ya it was really really high. WATTS thinks I must have a really bad injector issue. A bad O2 sensor would cause it to fail but not by this margin. The car has always had a low rpm miss however runs great above 2500rpms.

Anyone else came across readings this whacked out before. I will post up a scan of the slip when I get home.

For note this was on my stock 88GT

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85GT 5spd ,93 Eldorado 4.9 Dual O2 Custom Chip, Archie Clutch. Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything 245/50/16's Not Your Average 4.9 Capt Fiero Com --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Stock.

If you have to give a bit of gas pedal to start it then you probably have a problem with the injectors. I had the same problem and it smelled a little rich right after starting.

I'd start with a fuel pressure check and a fuel bleed down test. Know how to do that?

Yep it always smells of fuel when I start it, and as for doing a fuel pressure test and bleed down, I have been planning on putting on a fuel pressure gauge directly to the fuel rail like I have on my other motors. Basically fire it up, or at the least cycle the injectors and then shut it off and see if it hold fuel pressure. If it does not, then you have 1 of 2 problems, a leaking injector or bad valve in the fuel tank.

I am going to do a compression test first.
Then am going to do the fuel pressure test
Then planning on fulling the fuel rail and cold start. Pressure test the injectors for leaks.

I am hoping I find out what the problem is quickly. I want to go back to driving the 88 and park the V8 for the time being for some much needed motor mount work and swapping out to a higher geared trans axle.

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85GT 5spd ,93 Eldorado 4.9 Dual O2 Custom Chip, Archie Clutch. Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything 245/50/16's Not Your Average 4.9 Capt Fiero Com --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Stock.

I'm sure going to be watching this. Sounds like what I am going to have to do to mine. Oh well, you have to do what you have to do.

Many times high HC is a faulty cat

numbers for HC that high are beyond what any cat could handle. I can pass hc without a cat, here.

really sounds like a stuck injector, the fuel pressure tests will show that.
extrememly mal adjusted timing could add to it, but it sure sounds like you are pumping raw fule thru the system at a level like that.

I found this online.....hopefully this helps you diagnose your problem.

Possible Causes of High Hydrocarbon (HC) Emissions:

Hydrocarbons relate to unburned fuel. You may logically think that must mean that the engine is getting too much fuel. However, that is only one of many possibilities ranging from fuel problems, to electrical problems, to internal engine problems such as piston rings that can cause HC emissions to be excessive.

In order to pinpoint the cause of excessive HC emissions, the following systems (if applicable) will need to be checked, usually in the order shown below:


Lean or Rich Air-Fuel Ratio

For an engine to operate as designed, the correct ratio of fuel to air must be delivered to the cylinders. If the fuel system is delivering a leaner than ideal air-fuel ratio, it may result in lean misfire and cause high hydrocarbons. If the fuel system is too rich, it also may result in high HC but will be accompanied by high CO as well.


Inadequate Catalytic Converter Efficiency

For vehicles that are 1988 model year or newer, it is very important that the catalytic converter be operating at 90% efficiency or better. That means that the emissions that come out of the tailpipe must be no more than 10% of what goes in.


Induction System Problems

There are many aspects of the engine's air induction system (hoses, intake runners, intake manifold, vacuum-controlled devices) that can cause disruption in the air and fuel getting to the cylinders and result in high HC. Incorrect PCV valve/orifice flow rate can also cause similar symptoms. Leaking EGR valves also may cause excessive HC emissions.


Poor Ignition Performance

Ignition defects including dirty spark plugs, leaking or open-circuited spark plugs or wires, or defective ignition coils can all result in a shortage of spark energy. Any shortage of spark energy may cause high HC emissions.

If the spark occurs at the wrong time, incomplete combustion and high hydrocarbons may result. Too much spark advance could be due to an incorrect adjustment or a defect in mechanical or vacuum advance mechanisms.
Uneven Output Among the Engine's Cylinders

At this stage of the diagnosis the technician should be sure that the air-fuel ratio is correct, there are no external vacuum leaks, and the ignition system is operating normally. There are still many possible causes of high hydrocarbons, most of which are either internal engine problems or tough-to-detect induction system problems such as valve deposits or a leaking EGR valve. On fuel-injected vehicles, poor fuel atomization is a common cause of HC problems.

For all of these remaining possibilities, checking for uneven power output amongst cylinders will usually help to track down the cause of the problem.

[This message has been edited by mrfiero (edited 03-03-2007).]

look at the spark end too... no spark in one cyl will cause your O2 to read lean(02 only reads unburnt oxygen dont forget) and then dump fuel into all cylinders. causing the cylinder with no spark to be dumping a ton of fuel into the exhaust. so dont assume its a fuel problem. OBD I is too stupid to realize a false reading and will just keep adding fuel.

[This message has been edited by Jrgicehc (edited 03-03-2007).]

The car has a cat. The EGR system does not work and is capped off at both ends of the EGR pipe. However it passed the NOX so I am not too worried about the EGR system. If anything the non functioning EGR should have caused the combustion chambers temp to be higher and reduced the high HC's. I am going to pull down the top end next weekend, do a compression test and injector swap out with a set from a friend. See if it makes any difference.

Well here is the scan from the test today.

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85GT 5spd ,93 Eldorado 4.9 Dual O2 Custom Chip, Archie Clutch. Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything 245/50/16's Not Your Average 4.9 Capt Fiero Com --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Stock.

You may have also fried your cat depending on how long you've had inadequate burn. I had the same issue on my 86 which tracked back to the cold start injector. I know it's not the same, but you're probably on the right track w/ the injectors, just don't be too suprised if you still need to replace the cat.

I solved my issues with my 3m injector cleaning kit. It's a little pricey for the hardware, but I've let others use it for a couple bucks and using it on my cars has really paid for itself.

On the fuel test, get to the flexible part of your fuel lines and clamp it off. that will keep the pressure at your injectors. Good luck.

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Dana Mitchell
Member of the Gateway Fiero Club
88 GT Red w/ 5-Speed,86 SE Red w/ Black 3.2L w/ T-440,87 GT Blue w/ 5-Speed, 87 GT Maroon w/ Silver w/ Auto
95 Impala SS, 95 Roadmaster Estate Wagon w/ Air Ride 2-Tone w/ Ghost Flames 07 Silverado Classic Crew Cab 5.3L, 06 HHR (wife's ride), 91 CBR1000F Is that enough?

If you have a scan tool or someone you know with one, check your long term fuel trim and see where that is.

Well I started the tear down last night.

Here is what I have found so far.

When I went to bleed the fuel pressure from the schrader, there was zero pressure not even a tiny spurt of fuel came out. Hmm thats no good.

Middle intake to lower intake bolts, 3 of them were loose enough that I could have removed them with my fingers.
.

Now for the best part. I knew I had a valve train tic when cold. This had been there since I bought it. So I was thinking of if I was going this far I might as well pull the valve covers and properly set up the valve lash. 6 out of 12 of the valve cover bolts were also loose.

There are 12 rockers on a V6 2.8 Fiero engine. With the engine sitting in a static position, just where ever it stopped when I shut it off. 6 out of the 12 rockers had a small bit of slop enough to click back and fourth when wiggled. 2 more had at least .020 movement. Only 4 of them were tight, and I am betting those are only tight due to came lobe position.

My best guess is the guy that did the engine swap. (engine was replaced with a new motor 40,000 miles ago) Set the valves as if if were a SBC with coarse valve stud threads. Probably went to zero lash and maybe put on 1/4 turn more. By the looks of it, he may not have even been at zero lash when he set them up. So a combination of valves not opening far enough and at least one leaky injector this could have been causing all my problems from the beginning. I am going to reset the valves, install a set of injectors from a fellow club member that just finished a 19# injector swap, and had passed air-care with his old injectors. 9Thank You Blair on the forum) Then put it all back together and see what happens. I can only work on it a few hours a day and even at that it is only for about half hour at a shot. So it is going to take me the better part of a week to do all this.

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85GT 5spd ,93 Eldorado 4.9 Dual O2 Custom Chip, Archie Clutch. Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything 245/50/16's Not Your Average 4.9 Capt Fiero Com --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Stock.

Your issue is without a doubt incomplete combustion as the hydrocarbon readings are simply refering to unburned gasoline in your exhaust . Hydrocarbons are not a biproduct of combustion as are the other peratmeters analyzed hense why only the hydrocarbon readings are above normal. Could be injectors, fuel pressure, spark, ignition, and so on.

Sounds like a stuck or leaking injector.

Here are the quick pics I snapped.

Please ignore the odd spark plug wires, 2 of my good MSD wires got damaged so I just tossed on a couple spare Accell 8.8's. I am not sure what I am going to do about the ugly valve covers. I don't have time to strip and repaint them completely, I am going to scrub them down and maybe give them a small shot of red paint to make them at least look presentable.

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 03-07-2007).]

Don't forget to check you cold start injector as well, while everything is apart. It can also cause the symptoms you describe.

John Stricker

I had the cold start injector hooked into the rail when I did the test, but I plan to do a cold start delete on it anyway. Cold start gets plugged at the rail with a chrome oil pan bolt from a Honda, then the spot where it goes into the manifold gets plugged with a dummy cold start valve. It leaves lots extra room around the dist shaft and kinda cleans up that area.

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 03-07-2007).]

change your plugs too, glad you found the problem

Capt fiero. Instead of replacing your injectors. If it is just the o-rings or penal caps that are leaking you can get those replaced and have the injectors cleaned for under 100 dollars at.
www.cruzinperformance.com
I have had 4 sets cleaned there and sent and got back in under 10 days everytime the guy does AWSOME work and i would suggest him to anyone!!! Get them cleaned and bring back the power also.

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: So who was the first to suggest leaking injector? You should go and have a beer to celebrate.

That would be Fiero1Fan and I. He has the beer I'd like better over there...... Set me up a Porter beer tender....

If you're still having issues with your numbers, just don't forget to check the cat. I guess it depends how long you're driven with the rich condition. Like I said my injector leaks ended up frying my converter. Also reset the computer and drive it for a week to relearn the BLMs.

Best of luck.

Everyone that posted in here got a plus. Thank you for all the info and as things progress I will post up results.

Well update. I had it all apart and did a compression test, cylinder's 1-5 were 140-150 lbs across, cylinder 6 initially hit 120, then on 5 retests got a best of 70 and that was with 2 cap fulls of oil dumped directly down the intake port. The intake valve was not sealing. I backed the rocker off to the point that when the cam allowed the valve to close the push rod was sloppy. I smacked it with a hammer, I sprayed carb cleaner down it, I got the valve in the closed position and left carb cleaned down the intake port over night, it just would not seal. So today, I did the deed. I tore the entire top end off and pulled the heads. It is very obvious in the pics which cylinder was not firing. (hint its the one that still has the brass compression tester fitting in the plug hole)

A big thanks to Blair for pushing me to remove the heads and Graeme for coming over today and practically standing over my shoulder telling me to "just do it" get it done. I was really not in the mood to work on the car today, but when your friend is standing there giving you crap about not doing it, you kinda got 2 choices, punch him or get off your butt and get to work. (both require about the same amount of work but only one would get me any progress)

So the heads are off, I am going to tear them down and junk em. I have a spare set of good 2.8 heads here. I am probably going send them off to be checked for sure. The rest of the engine is in good shape. The cylinder walls are so fresh that you can still see the hash marks. There is no ridge at all. I tried to show that in the pic where I smeared around the oil. I have to get one of my manifolds ported. I have 6 sitting on a wall of which for some odd reason only one is ported, the others are stock. So I will get another spare one done. Maybe by next week I will have all the parts done and get this car back on the road. Will be nice to be able to park the V8 car and get some much needed tinkering done to it. I broke way to many parts racing it around all winter.





Bad Valves on #6


Good Cylinder Walls



Old Heads Complete


New Nice Heads


Spare Manifolds


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85GT 5spd ,93 Eldorado 4.9 Dual O2 Custom Chip, Archie Clutch. Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything 245/50/16's Not Your Average 4.9 Capt Fiero Com --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Stock.

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 03-13-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner: I'd start with a fuel pressure check and a fuel bleed down test. Know how to do that?

Bump for the Nebraskan

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"A mobile home with a flat tire, is just a home."
"If some one ask if your ticklish it doesn't matter if you say yes or no, they're still going to touch you. That's why when they ask you say something like, I have diarria! but yes I am very ticklish"
How fast does a zebra have to run before it looks gray?"

Sorry no pics for the day.

However here is an update.

Got all my ducks in a row.

Picked up some 40mm studs for the exhaust and installed them with the manifolds and new exhaust gaskets. Got the heads back on the car, set the valve lash, got the valve covers on and torqued.

A little worried about the heads I used. I really did not have much history on them all I knew is they were a rebuilt set. It looks like they have been decked either aggressively once, or mildly a few times. The space where the heads contact the lower intake was not totally smooth. So the seal between the valve cover is not smooth. I checked and re-checked and everything is put together square. Its just the heads seem to sit lower than they should. I made sure to use lots of RTV between the block and lower intake and a few drops where the lip between the head and intake meet on the valve cover mating surface. The lip is not huge about 1/2 the thickness of a penny. All the gaskets seem to be sealing, however I guess time will tell when it is all up and running.

I have the fuel pressure gauge and adjustable fuel pressure regulator on the fuel rail all ready to go in, however I just ran out of energy tonight. I know getting the A/C brackets and Alternator brackets lined up with the dog-bone brackets is going to be a PITA. So I am leaving that till tomorrow. I am going to try and get as much done as I can during the day tomorrow as my boss called and needs me to work Friday, Saturday, Sunday at a job site, so my tinkering will be on hold for a bit. When I get the entire thing back together I will post another update. I really want this all done and over with. It will be nice to have this car for the summer again.

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85GT 5spd ,93 Eldorado 4.9 Dual O2 Custom Chip, Archie Clutch. Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything 245/50/16's Not Your Average 4.9 Capt Fiero Com --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Stock.

Good luck... I'm kinda with you... Mine popped an intake gasket a couple of weeks ago and I had a cracked front manifold, so I just got up to the lower intake on tonight. Looks like we're both in the home stretch.

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Dana Mitchell
Member of the Gateway Fiero Club
88 GT Red w/ 5-Speed,86 SE Red w/ Black 3.2L w/ T-440,87 GT Blue w/ 5-Speed, 87 GT Maroon w/ Silver w/ Auto
95 Impala SS, 95 Roadmaster Estate Wagon w/ Air Ride 2-Tone w/ Ghost Flames 07 Silverado Classic Crew Cab 5.3L, 06 HHR (wife's ride), 91 CBR1000F Is that enough?

Edit to add reply to above post.
I have been stalled on working on the 88 as I have been busy with Work and now dealing with Lisa's car. See the post below about her car.

Well a side note, Lisa's Fiero failed emissions testing. Ugh another one to deal with.

The funny thing about it is not that it failed, but the fact that in our neck of the woods, an 85 is allowed to be more than twice as dirty as an 88. Its a long story as to why hers failed. She has no cat, no EGR, 1.6 rockers, 19# injectors and a slew of other mods. We kinda took it through just to see if it had a chance of passing. It came very close except for higher than normal NOX. We are going to fatten up the mixture and try it again. However we may just toss on a spare exhaust with a cat to guarantee it will pass.

But here are the 2 scans just for those that might be interested.

85 Emissions Test Report


88 Emissions Test Report


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85GT 5spd ,93 Eldorado 4.9 Dual O2 Custom Chip, Archie Clutch. Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything 245/50/16's Not Your Average 4.9 Capt Fiero Com --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Stock.

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 04-04-2007).]

Well after a month of tinkering in my spare time, I put the finishing touches on the car today, bought a $33 day trip permit, put $50 worth of premium gas in it, drove it to the emissions testing station paid them there $23 for the test and crossed my fingers.

The guy that did the test new I was terrified of it failing. (mainly from him hearing me go "please pass, please pass, just tell me it passed") So as he brought me the results he was kinda shaking his head and said I would need to re-test, then he paused and said "In another year" It PASSED. Fiero's are my only cars, I have my 88GT that is pretty much stock, and my 85GT that has the 4.9, the car overall has been modded in everything. I blew up the clutch in the V8 car so I had to get the 88GT on the road in a hurry. I even had to take a day off of work to get it sorted out. So I am very very happy it is running.

The first drive with the new heads and ported manifolds was amazing. I can't believe how much a difference just a good set of heads and ported manifolds makes to an otherwise stock engine. (as far as I know the rest of the engine is stock) I have only owned the car for a bit over a year so who knows what was done in the last 20 years.

The car revs better, has much improved throttle response and overall is more fun to drive than it I remember it being. With only 95,000 miles on it, (157,000 kms) the car is still in pretty good shape as well.

Well enough with the chatter here is the test that says I am legal for another year.

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85GT 5spd ,93 Eldorado 4.9 Dual O2 Custom Chip, Archie Clutch. Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything 245/50/16's Not Your Average 4.9 Capt Fiero Com --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Stock.

Congrats Capn! Glad to see that the 88 passed. If you are looking for a new clutch for the 4.9, I hear that SPEC makes the best for Fiero. They are only 300 for a stage III also. Here is a thread detailing them in more detail...
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...030204-2-021911.html

Here is a link to their website...
http://www.specclutch.com/

You shouldn't have to worry about this one again. They are extremely streetable and shouldn't be too tough on your tranny. I know how you go through them. lol

There is a local supplier here is Portland if you can't find one near you. Good luck on Lisa's car.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 04-19-2007).]

dude stop breaking **** ...either that or buy a reliable back up car like a chevette or a yugo...save a fiero drive an import.mawhahaha..nice work capt crunch...tim

quote Originally posted by seminaries: dude stop breaking **** ...either that or buy a reliable back up car like a chevette or a yugo...save a Fiero drive an import.mawhahaha..nice work capt crunch...tim

Oh go shove something where the sun don't shine.

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Well Arn suggested I talk to Bully Clutch. I finally got them on the phone today. (been trying since last Friday) They are a Canadian company. They have a clutch for the Fiero that they guaranty to hold 400hp and 500lbs of torque that is a 6 puck design. They quoted me $588 after tax CDN (about 470 USD) for there clutch. It seems like a really nice design however if you can get a spec down there for 300 USD and in Oregon have no sales tax. I might take you up on your offer. It will have to wait and see when I get the trans out of the car and see just what happened. However if it is what I think it is, I will call them pay for the clutch and then just have it shipped to you and you can drop ship it to me as a gift. Unless they will ship direct and find some way around the brokerage/customs/duty fees coming into Canada. Edit to add. As for Lisa's car. We ended up changing out the Injectors, Throttle Body, TPS, IAC, Prom to a diffrent program, have the Cat Converter on, changing the plugs, rotor, cap and a few other things. It passed with flying colours. Took 3 tries but we got it through.

Sounds good to me. Let me know what you decide to do. I would be happy to ship you a gift clutch. Isn't your birthday coming around soon? lol No sales tax in oregon. They keep trying, we keep voting it down. There are two authorized dealers here in town. I can get you their number and go pick it up to avoid the shipping cost from them. I work for a big company and shipping is pretty cheap via UPS. I just shipped a set of springs for 18 bucks. 30 pound box. I will be going to get one soon for my 4.9 also. I was planing on using an 88 flywheel re-drilled but think a custom built would be better. Do you still have the number for LSC in california?

Glad to hear Lisa's car passed. Congrats. Later.

i went with the stage 3 for my 3.8sc swap...i have driven a 3.8sc with this clutch too..its a nice streetable set up...plus $300 isnt all that bad a priice to pay..i ordered my directly from spec and it took only 3 or 4 days to get because they shipped it out UPS...mind you they did ding me big for customs and brokerage fees..bastards...this is a good choice for your V8 car and should perform very well...good luck ..tim..ps we havent had sunshine for a couple of days now dave...damn snow....:P
pps i had to break down and buy an import...but i got a really good deal on it...still doesnt make it right does it????

[This message has been edited by thismanyfieros (edited 04-20-2007).]