Hey guys
i have an 85 fiero se duke 3sp. this summer im am toying with the idea of building a road coarse car to compete with my buddies 89 FC. right now the car is in really good shape. not much rust...

up untill now i had planned on getting an FC, dropping an l67 in it and using the v6 camaro driveline. well, i already have this car and i know its not one big rust bucket, like my buddies fc is turning out to be.

i would swap the motor, but i NEED to have a stick. i would like the l67 as i am most comfortable with that motor, i have a BUILT GTP, but i know that the 4t65-hd WILL NOT hold up to long term road racing.

how well will the fiero perform on a road coarse? of coarse i will be doing a complete poly suspension, and some coil overs, but the car needs to be able to take a turn. as is, i think it handles awesome with 2 blown front struts, but the car is also slow as balls.

i will be doing all the work myself, and with the help of my buddy. im not afraid of any task, i've done it all.

so bascially, i have a few questions for you fiero gurus.

1. How trackable is a built fiero
2. What drivetrain would you use keeping in mind it needs to be quick, reliable, and a stick
3. should i keep the fiero as my DD, and buy a different car


Thanks alot guys
Matt

It'll keep up with an FC (assuming that still refers to the 2nd gen RX-7) on the road course, as long as you understand the current engine and trasmission need to go, and the suspension needs to be fully refreshed. Which it sounds like you do understand. Back in the days of IMSA, the Fiero and RX-7 raced together frequently, and the Fiero held it's own very well. Of course these tube-frame custom built racecars had little in common with their production counterparts. Where the Fiero really shines is road course racetracks.

How highly modded is the RX-7? If it's basically stock you can probably get away with a 3.4 swap and do fine. I'd probably do a 3800 Series II supercharged though.

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1984 Fiero SE

its pretty modded, high compression rotors, bla bla bla (he will talk your ear off about it) lol. hes my best friend tho, lol.


i would really prefer the l67, but i need a tranny that will hold the power.

and yes, i know it will need to be completely redone, and it will probably get a cage if i decide to do it.

Well, might be best to keep your for a daily driver and get another roller to the track car. But, then again, you can convert yours to stick and add another engine.

You haven't specified what your experience is, or what your goal is. However, since you are talking about a SBC, I rather suspect that you are not planning on any sanctioned racing, but rather are looking at putting together a track car.

A friend and I have been wrestling with the possibility of Fiero track cars (other than sanctioned racing), including the possibility of a Spec Fiero. We have gone round and round on just what would be the best combination.

The completion of our cars has been delayed by other projects and interests; I have been racing my Neon with NASA's SoCal Region, and my friend got married. Howevere, we are still making progress, just at a snail's pace.

I had pretty much concluded that a turbocharge Ecotec would be ideal, primarily because of its lighter weight, and the fact these engines are beginning to show up on the junk yards. However, the Ecotec requires additonal fabrication to mount the engine, and the integration of its own computer with the Fiero wiring harness.

We have also considered the Cadillac 4.9. With some minor modification, these engines offer respectable power without any significant increase in weight over the 2.8 (about 5 lbs.) Overall, the weight of a track Fiero should be very close to the Factory Five Cobra, and the front-rear weight distribution is almost identical. In stock form the 4.9 puts out about 200 hp and 275 ft. lbs. torque. A special flywheel needs to be made, but it is relatively easy. The 4.9 can be run on the existing F.I. system or may be converted to a carb. See, http://www.fieroaddiction.com/ and http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/switch/67/

A built 3.4 (out of a 93-95 Camaro or Firebird) is another viable option. A Pennocks member who goes by OREIF built a carbed 3.4 that was good for about 220hp and almost 240 lbs. torque. This may be the simplest conversion. There are plenty of threads detailing the steps. See e.g.,
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/041835.html

I'm sure others will offer other engines as good candidates. However, most of them carry additional weight (all of which is in the rear).

Whatever engine you choose, you don't want to forget the brakes, suspension, etc. For example, a Pennock's Fiero Forum member is now offering. what appears to be an excellent set of sway bars. See,
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/036556.html

Hope this helps you get started.

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FierOmar

Well I race on road courses for fun. With a very good suspension the Fiero can hang with many vehicles. When I had the stock V-6/auto and my new suspension I was able to catch many cars in the turns.(just not in the straights) Right now I have a V-8 with a 4-spd and it performs great.

My advice would be to go poly bushings on everything. (suspension and cradle)
Coil overs with KYB or Koni (I have KYB's) work very well. Decent lowering springs and sway bars help as well.
There is a guy selling adjustable sway bars in the mall section which could help greatly in setting up a good suspension.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/036556.html

As for engine/trans, I would go with what you like. If you are familiar with the L67 then I would go that way. You want an engine that has a decent mid-range power curve and a good RPM range. So engines like the 4.9L on a mid/high speed road course would not work very well.

As for manual trans, I would look the gearing. In my case the 4-spd works well with my V-8 but not having actually raced an L67 powered Fiero I am not sure which trans (4-sp, 5-spd, or 6-spd) would be the better choice. At a guess I would say the 5-spd but hopefully others who autoX or race on road courses will chime in.

One final note UPGRADE the brakes. The stock brakes will work OK, But after a few laps they will start to fade. I have Archie's big brake kit which uses the 11.25" vented rotors and they work very well. There is also a Corvette 12" brake mod too.

The mid-engine design of the Fiero is a decent platform to start with but it does require some mods to be competative with newer cars.

Fiero with freshened up suspension is a fine road course car.
usually, a added rear sway bar is a good thing.
what road course are planning on driving? your not far from Waterford Hills Raceway - narrow track - but way fun.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: Fiero with freshened up suspension is a fine road course car. usually, a added rear sway bar is a good thing. what road course are planning on driving? your not far from Waterford Hills Raceway - narrow track - but way fun.

Speaking of Waterford Hills, here are some links to videos from the 20th.
http://one.revver.com/watch/145804

Go for a ride with Alan Hamilton in his SCCA ITA prepped 2.8 (88 chassis) Fiero. http://one.revver.com/watch/145817

And, if you liked that, you can go for a ride with Alan at several other tracks in the west. http://racer.net/itafiero/Video/ Check out the race at Thunderhill in October, 2003... couple Mazda's here:
http://racer.net/itafiero/V...20October%202003.htm

Remember, the ITA rules limit the mods that can be made. Thus, Alan was not able to upgrade the brakes (except for pads and balancing); power mods are limited, and tire sizes were limited as well.

These videos tend to convince me that you don't need the most powerful engine available. Balance and smoothness are important factors as well. In any event, this is why I think a moderately built 3.4 would be sufficient for your purposes. hey, Orief, maybe you can give us the specs that you used to build your carbed 3.4.

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FierOmar

i will probably be a waterford hills mostly, but i may venture down to some tracks in ohio with my cousin.

ok, now i just need to do my homework to come up with a projected cost.

what tranny should i look for that will hold the l67??

there is also Gingerman raceway on the west side of Michigan.
are you planning to race in a class, or just get some track time?
if just track time, I'd like to join ya. always more fun with a 2nd.

and, FierOmar - yes, I was at Waterford for the 20th - most fun I've ever had with my clothes on!

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Well I race on road courses for fun. With a very good suspension the Fiero can hang with many vehicles. When I had the stock V-6/auto and my new suspension I was able to catch many cars in the turns.(just not in the straights) Right now I have a V-8 with a 4-spd and it performs great. My advice would be to go poly bushings on everything. (suspension and cradle) Coil overs with KYB or Koni (I have KYB's) work very well. Decent lowering springs and sway bars help as well. There is a guy selling adjustable sway bars in the mall section which could help greatly in setting up a good suspension. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/036556.html As for engine/trans, I would go with what you like. If you are familiar with the L67 then I would go that way. You want an engine that has a decent mid-range power curve and a good RPM range. So engines like the 4.9L on a mid/high speed road course would not work very well. As for manual trans, I would look the gearing. In my case the 4-spd works well with my V-8 but not having actually raced an L67 powered Fiero I am not sure which trans (4-sp, 5-spd, or 6-spd) would be the better choice. At a guess I would say the 5-spd but hopefully others who autoX or race on road courses will chime in. One final note UPGRADE the brakes. The stock brakes will work OK, But after a few laps they will start to fade. I have Archie's big brake kit which uses the 11.25" vented rotors and they work very well. There is also a Corvette 12" brake mod too. The mid-engine design of the Fiero is a decent platform to start with but it does require some mods to be competative with newer cars.

I would agree with much of what Orief says. I have assumed that you are on a budget, and like most of us, you are trying to get a lot of bank for the buck. Can't speak for your area, but 3.4 long blocks can be purchased for as little as $100-$150 at the bone yards (Look for a car that has been smacked hard, preferably in the rear or side, but still no guarantee.) Remember, the SBC will require several hundred dollars, just for the adapter kit.

Also remember, adding additional weight to the rear will affect overall weight and balance. If you look at the Alan Hamilton videos that were posted above, you will notice how well balanced the car appears to be. Maybe Orief can weigh in here as well. I would sure like to see the corner weights on the SBC powered car, with and without driver. I would also like the same for the 3.4 powered car.

I agree about the poly bushings unless you are intending to make the car a dedicated track car, in which case you might add aluminum cradle bushings.

As for transmission, I would recommend the Muncie 4 speed with 3.65 final drive to start. It offers a good compromise in that it is a bit lighter, probably less expensive, and is probably more readily available Moreover, I doubt that you would need the (Fiero) Getrag's 5th gear. At least in theory and without considering the drag, the 3.61 Muncie would be good for 160+ mph at 6000 rpm on a 24.3" diameter tire (e.g. a shaved 245-45-16). The 4.10 final drive might be better as it tops out at 130 under the same assumptions. As I recall, Orief 3.4 was good to 6,500 (maybe 7,000) rpm. (Little help here Orief.) i rather doubt that you will see these speeds at many tracks. O.K. we ran at Cal Speedway a couple weeks back, using about 60% of the oval course. The added power and/or 5th gear would help here. Once again, check out the Alan Hamilton video at Thunderhill which is about a 3 mile course... I don't think he ever got into 5th gear.

I also like the 11.25 Lebaron brakes, in part because the adapters and rotors are readily available, but also because you can use a lightweight (less than 3 lbs. each) Wilwood GM metric caliper in place of the Camaro/Seville calipers.

Relatively light weight Rota Slipstream wheels are available in 15x7 or 16x7 for the frond, and 16x8 for the rear. The 16x8 will fit a 245-45-16 tire which is a size that is made by almost every DOT track tire manufacturer. Rota offers the same wheel in 17" sizes (up to 17x8.5) if you decide that you really need bigger wheels and tires.

Shocks, springs and swaybars are important. Although a bit more expensive, the HHP bars are adjustable, and would allow you to balance the car with the sway bars.

Oh yeah, Kirk Racing offers a full cage. I have been very please with the products and service.

Enough said for the moment.
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FierOmar

[This message has been edited by FierOmar (edited 03-30-2007).]

the car will be used just for track time, as i want a car that is fast, but will turn(unlike my boat GTP)

i am not the biggest fans of the 60*v6's, i just dont like them. i know that they weigh a whole lot less, but i have delt with many 60*v6's and i dont see the potential i see in the 90*v6's.

i know a bunch of you guys are here in michigan, and we are the home of the 3800. i can grab a low mileage l32 for a grand, and then do some shopping for the 4 speed.
i will be getting the adjustable swaybars you mentioned, i looked at them, and they are PERFECT!!

i will have to look into the cage kit.


one thing that i have not put a lot of though into is the cooling. i dont think the stock duke cooling system would be up to the task of cooling a 3.8 track car. i would use a meizere elec wp, but is there any room up front to upgrade the radiator without serious modification, or am i looking at another project all in its own??

quote Originally posted by scooz14: one thing that i have not put a lot of though into is the cooling. i dont think the stock duke cooling system would be up to the task of cooling a 3.8 track car. i would use a meizere elec wp, but is there any room up front to upgrade the radiator without serious modification, or am i looking at another project all in its own??

V-8 Archie sells a 4-core radiator that is a bolt-in. He does sell them seperately.
Also venting the hood also helps a lot with cooling and keeps the nose down at high speeds.
There are many styles of hood vents, just do a search for hood vents and pick a style you like.

quote Originally posted by scooz14: the car will be used just for track time, as i want a car that is fast, but will turn(unlike my boat GTP) i am not the biggest fans of the 60*v6's, i just dont like them. i know that they weigh a whole lot less, but i have delt with many 60*v6's and i dont see the potential i see in the 90*v6's. i know a bunch of you guys are here in michigan, and we are the home of the 3800. i can grab a low mileage l32 for a grand, and then do some shopping for the 4 speed. i will be getting the adjustable swaybars you mentioned, i looked at them, and they are PERFECT!! i will have to look into the cage kit. one thing that i have not put a lot of though into is the cooling. i dont think the stock duke cooling system would be up to the task of cooling a 3.8 track car. i would use a meizere elec wp, but is there any room up front to upgrade the radiator without serious modification, or am i looking at another project all in its own??

You are correct on the colling. I belive that V8 Archie has a 4 core aluminum radiator. As for the 3800, I could be wrong, but I seem to recall that it is almost as heavy as the SBC (maybe that's with the supercharger added).

Once again, maybe we can start a weight and balance thread where people can post their 4 corner weights wieh various swaps. .

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FierOmar

thats a good idea

i am going to school to get my bodymans cert, but i am toying with the idea of leaving the exterior just the way it is, unless it NEEDS to be modified. the scoops are a good idea though. wouldnt be to hard to do, i have trolled around here for a while reading all your guys build threads.


that is the thing i love about this community, so much creative juices, and all you guys seem so cool and down to earth.

thanks a lot for the input guys

Orief made a good comment, in that the Fiero properly powered can catch and or accelerate away from even Corvettes on road course curves.
I have a turbo 2.8 and drive the upstate Watkins Glen 3 mile road course each year on opening day. Last year I had a Corvette behind me and he made life miserable for me on the straight aways, always on my A$$. But on the many curves, the Fiero is superior and got away from him as though he was standing still.
The ideal Fiero road course car would be one with a Northstar. The weight situation would be the same as a stock 2.8 (give or take 50 lbs.)You will beat the Corvettes on the straights or on the curves. Ed

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mabey us michigan fiero owners should make a club
id be up for some track days w/ u guys
im planing on racing in solo (no idea what class im gonna be in lol)

well, last year I did try to get some people here to head out to Gingerman raceway for some track time. I will try again this year. and, I do want to try some auto-x too. I know theres at least 2 other guys, besides who posted in this thread, that would be intrested - just wish I could remember the names....

quote Originally posted by Firefighter: The weight situation would be the same as a stock 2.8 (give or take 50 lbs.)You will beat the Corvettes on the straights or on the curves.

The Northstar weighs 413 lbs in running condition and as high as 470 lbs with all accessories.
3800SC weighs around 445 lbs and the regular 3800 is around 400 lbs
My ZZ4 weighs 405 lbs (aluminum heads, no carb)
Fiero 2.8L weighs 345 lbs
Cadillac 4.9L weighs around 355 lbs.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: The Northstar weighs 413 lbs in running condition and as high as 470 lbs with all accessories. 3800SC weighs around 445 lbs and the regular 3800 is around 400 lbs My ZZ4 weighs 405 lbs (aluminum heads, no carb) Fiero 2.8L weighs 345 lbs Cadillac 4.9L weighs around 355 lbs.

That's why I cant see any clear advantage to the 3800, unless supercharged, and then there is the added weight of the S/C.

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FierOmar

quote as is, i think it handles awesome with 2 blown front struts, but the car is also slow as balls.

I'd like to know how you fit struts on the front of your Fiero.

In my opinion, a Fiero makes an absolutely excellent road-race car. I'm not sure what specific class you're looking to go into, but you may be limited on what engines you can put in. Unless of course you're just doing this for fun and don't plan on really racing it professionally (which I can COMPLETELY understand).

The Duke REALLY isn't that bad of a motor to use, so long as you're going to be with other vehicles that have similarly low displacements and power. I mean, you could build out a Duke decently, for really not a lot of money (despite what people might say). I mean, the 4 cyl Duke isn't going to explode into a million pieces the first time you decide to floor it (maybe people would think otherwise from all the bad press). I mean, yeah, the Duke is slow, but if you're building a road-race car... you're going to want to gut the entire interior. There are a LOT of things on the Fiero that make it as heavy as it is. The entire interior is really quite heavy... including the carpet. There are a lot of things you can REMOVE, like the trunk for example... does absolutely nothing for you if you're going to be racing it. You can build up a decent DUKE at 115hp, with a decent 4-speed manual. In my opinion, a 4.10:1 would be pretty decent for something like that (you won't be spending any time in 1st anyway).

You COULD also go with a V6/60 motor, maybe a Camaro / Firebird motor. It will really give you tons of power. You can carburete it as well, or go with an aftermarket fuel injection set-up. They are capable of pretty decent rpms (unlike the Duke). A well-built 3.4, carbureted, can produce ~200hp and if balanced properly, can easily be revved to 6,500 rpms or more.


Now, I have to disclaimer this before I mention this next thing... because I don't want to hurt anyone. I am a HUGE fan of the Fiero. I have owned 9 Fieros since I first learned to drive. My 1987 Fiero SE / V6 was one of my first cars (I really don't like to count the 84 Corolla). I will be buried in my 87 Fiero, and I will NEVER get rid of it. I've worked on many different models from nearly all years. But one car that is out-right completely in another class, is the Porsche 924/944. It's been said to be the best handling Porsche ever built. It has a PERFECT 50/50 weight distribution. They are available in a number of different engine configurations (2.5, 2.5 Turbo, 2.7, 2.7 DOHC, and 3.0 DOHC). The 2.5 is the standard motor for the earlier 944s. This is the most common of the motors, and is the cheapest to work on in terms of the 944. If you don't want to spend very much money, you can go one step lower to the Porsche 924. The 924 (from 1976-1985) came with the Audi 2.0 OHC motor. It's quite a bit more down on power from the 2.5 Porsche motor that came in the 944, but it's a very solid engine, very easy to work on, and parts are SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than they are for the 2.5 motor. They also offered a Turbo motor in 1979 which continued on through the 1982 year in the US. What makes the vehicle so well balanced is that the transmission is actually located in the rear of the car. You have the engine up front (longitudinally mounted) which is attached to a bell-housing and clutch assembly. This attaches to a TORQUE tube, which contains a driveshaft that connects directly to the transmission which is located in the rear of the car. The half-shafts then come off the transmission in the rear. The torque tube connects the engine to the transmission, eliminating ANY and ALL flex between the two (99.9% of all RWD / Front Engined vehicles do NOT have this). Plus PERFECT 50/50 weight distribution.

That said, the Porsche 924 is a slightly heavier vehicle than a Fiero. It weighs in around 2,800 pounds. However, if you completely gut the enterior, and eliminate all the usual crap like power steering, A/C compressor, etc (use a manual steering rack instead) you can drop several hundred pounds. There is also like 50 pounds of sound deadening in the car (the entire body is galvenized which is why you'll never, ever see a rusted out 924 or 944. The other good thing is that the bolt-pattern is identical for nearly all Porsches, so you can use even the newest Boxster wheel / tire combinations on your 5-bolt 924.


Anyway, I still love my Fiero, but thought I'd add it in there. I only mention it because there are literally 2 dozen Porsche 924s on eBay on a weekly basis... all of them typically going for less than $1,000.


Oh, you can also get the 924 with the Porsche 2.5 motor (sold from 1986-1988).


Todd,
2006 Pontiac Solstice
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX-P74
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1984 Porsche 944
1981 Pontiac TransAm WS6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 03-30-2007).]

I have used my 86 gt on the track for the past few years now. I have been to Mid Ohio a few times and I am going to be taking my car to Gingerman on April 7th with MIVE, Michigan Volkswagen Enthusiasts. I started these track events with my car just lowered the first time I went. My car had the 2.8 w/ 5spd. From my experience at Mid Ohio better brakes is a must. The first time with stock setup was terrible. Fading was a huge problem. I then went to drilled and slotted with porterfield pads. That was still bad. Then I upgraded to grand am brakes all the way around and they still weren't good enough. I now have the 11.25 brakes with EBC yellowstuff pads. I have not had these on the track yet, but on the road they are amazing. If you plan on using the car on the track go straight to the 11.25 setup or better. Don't waste your time like i did. My car now has a 3800SC engine. I am still using the 5spd. I have Konis on the front with coil overs and KYBs in the back, aluminum cradle bushings, bigger wheels, rear sway bar, ect ect. All I can say is I absolutely love driving on the track. I usually attend track days with a couple Porsche clubs, and to have them come up to me in amazement about my Fiero is a great feeling. Brakes to me was the best upgrade, along with the engine swap. Good luck, its addicting! And for any other Michigan Fiero owners that are attending track days let me know!

quote Originally posted by Firefighter: ..... Fiero properly powered can catch and or accelerate away from even Corvettes on road course curves.

Sing it brother! (cough.. or even a new Viper... )

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Paul

Pontiac prestiege.... Pontiac performance...... Pontiac POWER!
HHP Is back in business! Now selling Adjustable Sway bars: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/036556.html
For a full history of the Fiero SS: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/789315

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: But one car that is out-right completely in another class, is the Porsche 924/944. It's been said to be the best handling Porsche ever built. It has a PERFECT 50/50 weight distribution.

I don't quite agree that a 50/50 weight distribution is perfect. I think the Fiero with a slight rearward bias is closer to perfect. Remember, when the car is moving, you need to factor in weight transfer; forward about 15% under hard braking and rearward about the same under hard acceleration. Actually the percentage assigned to weight transfer varies depending on the suspension. Ideally, the car will have a 50/50 balance as it enters the turn. Assuming the car is rear drive, the weight will transfer to the drive wheels under hard acceleration.

This explains why Factory 5, the makers of the Cobra replica race cars has given their cars a rear bias; approximately 45% front and 55% rear (almost identical to the Fiero). See, http://www.factoryfive.com/...eccar/kit/specs.html
As I recall the Lotus Elise is closer to 60% rear bias.


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FierOmar

[This message has been edited by FierOmar (edited 03-31-2007).]

quote Originally posted by FierOmar: I don't quite agree taht a 50/50 weight distribution is perfect. I think the Fiero with a slightl rearward bias is closer to perfect Remember, when the car is moving, you need to factor in weight transfer; forward about 15% under hard braking and rearward about the same under hard acceleration. Actually the percentage assigned to weight transfer various depending on the suspension. Ideally, the car will have a 50/50 balance as it enters the turn. Assuming the car is rear drive, the weight will transfer to the drive wheels under har acceleration. This explains why Factory 5, the makers of the Cobra replica race cars has given their cars a rear bias; approximately 45% front and 55% rear (almost identical to the Fiero). See, http://www.factoryfive.com/...eccar/kit/specs.html As I recall the Lotus Elise is closer to 51% rear bias.

Either car would be very competetive. But the Fiero being the way it is, it would need significant suspension tuning to be ready. Not that this is an overly complicated thing to do, but the way it's set up now, you get major bump-steer from the pre-88s. Especially if the suspension is anything but brand new, the car is configured from the factory for mostly understeer (which I'm not really a fan of) and the brake bias really needs to be adjusted more for the front (more so than it is now). But once that's taken care of (which isn't overly hard to do), I can definitely agree with you.


I had a spare 87 SE chassis that I was thinking of doing that exact thing to. I wanted to completely cut it,and install an aluminum dash with all different gauges, carburate the 2.8 V6/60 and really port / polish the heads. I never ended up doing it though... but when I get some more space at the house, I'd definitely like to do that.


It's funny, because this same thread was posted on CrownVic.NET. I also have a Crown Victoria that I've modified, so I hang out on there too. I wasn't really sure how to respond to it on there though... hahaha... can't imagine using a 4,300 pound sedan with a solid rear axle for a road-race car.
Todd,
2006 Pontiac Solstice
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX-P74
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1984 Porsche 944
1981 Pontiac TransAm WS6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: It's funny, because this same thread was posted on CrownVic.NET. I also have a Crown Victoria that I've modified, so I hang out on there too. I wasn't really sure how to respond to it on there though... hahaha... can't imagine using a 4,300 pound sedan with a solid rear axle for a road-race car.

Well, in the good ol' days, when NASCAR actually ran "stock" cars there were plenty of these cars being run road courses as there were at least one event (and maybe more) run on such courses. Riverside (California) Raceway comes to mind. But, it wasn't unusual to see some big cars (particularly the Ford Galaxie - circa 1963-1966) tearing up the road courses. Apparently the Galaxie was potent enough to grab the lap record for the Saloon (Sedan) class at Goodwood. where it was up against the best that England and Europe had to offer, including the Mini and Lotus Cortina. See: http://www.unisys.com/about...od__lap__records.htm


Here are a couple more examples: http://www.classicdriver.co...ne/3700.asp?id=12655

http://www.sandownraceway.c...3&dts=22102006131152

I seen a couple examples of the Impala SS (mid 90's) at the track. If set up properly, these cars can post some very respectable times.


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FierOmar

[This message has been edited by FierOmar (edited 03-31-2007).]

Some responses to a few things in your thread:

1. Yes, weight is the #1 enemy, but I like my custom interior too much to rip out. However, I just enjoy track time – no true competitive events where weight reduction is a no-brainer advantage. Remember a handling rule of thumb, 1 lb. of unsprung weight is equivalent to 4 lbs. of sprung weight. Lighten those wheel assemblies and some of your brake & suspension components and you will have a car as nimble as a 2500 lb car.
2. I’ve read and heard more times than not that the Miata is the cheapest investment for weekend fun. Right now I’m all invested in an 87 GT for my weekend warrior. I would love to move to a Lotus 7 style, but it’s not cheap ($30K).
3. Weight jacking will give the competitive edge most haven’t obtained. It requires all four corners to have height-adjustable suspension. I achieved it with the Held Motorsports product line.
4. The rear-weight bias on Fieros is not ideal. Only Porsche has managed to dial out this problem over time in their 911 series. It is about front/rear sway bar balance, wider rubber on the rear, and just learning to drive a line through the turns that uses the rear weight. A 350Z has a weight balance of 52f/48r by design. More weight is placed over the front brakes at braking time for traction, and then weight shifts rearward for a 50/50 balance during corner acceleration. You may want to move your battery up front to help weight distribution, but keep it inside the axles to maintain a low polar moment of inertia. This is why we’re seeing new sport cars pushing their axles out, shortening the nose and tail, and placing most of the weight between the axles.

Someone in our club road races Fieros and his cars are basically stock. The cars can handle it fine, they don't overhead etc. Of course, more powa, is always welcome, as are bigger brakes.. :-)


-M

quote Originally posted by cultcar: Some responses to a few things in your thread: 1. Yes, weight is the #1 enemy, but I like my custom interior too much to rip out. However, I just enjoy track time – no true competitive events where weight reduction is a no-brainer advantage. Remember a handling rule of thumb, 1 lb. of unsprung weight is equivalent to 4 lbs. of sprung weight. Lighten those wheel assemblies and some of your brake & suspension components and you will have a car as nimble as a 2500 lb car. .

I don't know whether the ratio is exactly 1:4, but I have heard these numbers before. Anyhow that is exacty why I am thinking about 16" Rota wheels as opposed to 17" wheels, and the Lebaron brake conversion with Wilwood GM Metric calipers (less than 3 lbs. each).

quote Originally posted by cultcar: 2. I’ve read and heard more times than not that the Miata is the cheapest investment for weekend fun. Right now I’m all invested in an 87 GT for my weekend warrior. I would love to move to a Lotus 7 style, but it’s not cheap ($30K)..

Try a Spec Neon... probably better bang for the buck than a Spec Miata. They can be purchased, race ready for under $4,000. See, e.g.: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

At the NASA notionals (Mid-Ohio), the Spec Miata was about one second per lap faster in both qualifying and race.

quote Originally posted by cultcar: 3. Weight jacking will give the competitive edge most haven’t obtained. It requires all four corners to have height-adjustable suspension. I achieved it with the Held Motorsports product line..

If you look closely at Alan Hamilton's photos, it appears that he added front coilovers without Held's kit.

quote Originally posted by cultcar: 4. The rear-weight bias on Fieros is not ideal. Only Porsche has managed to dial out this problem over time in their 911 series. It is about front/rear sway bar balance, wider rubber on the rear, and just learning to drive a line through the turns that uses the rear weight. A 350Z has a weight balance of 52f/48r by design. More weight is placed over the front brakes at braking time for traction, and then weight shifts rearward for a 50/50 balance during corner acceleration. You may want to move your battery up front to help weight distribution, but keep it inside the axles to maintain a low polar moment of inertia. This is why we’re seeing new sport cars pushing their axles out, shortening the nose and tail, and placing most of the weight between the axles.

I disagree here. Don't forget weight transfer under hard braking. I've heard as much as 17%, but probably less on a race prepped car. Only Porsche? What about the Lotus Elise, the Factory 5 roadster (see discussion above), and may others that seemingly have resolved the issue quite well? Take a look at Alan Hamilton's video at Laguna Seca. Even though he spun in the corkscrew on the first lap, the car performed flawlessly for the remainder of the race.

I think the fiero is a better platform than most people give it credit for. Not necessarily ideal, but a good starting point.


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FierOmar

[This message has been edited by FierOmar (edited 03-31-2007).]

The key with (among many) racing a mid engine / rear bias car is the placement on the track and the attack in the curve. My IMSA is set up roughly as a 45% front 55% rear setup. The center of mass is right under the drivers seat (I have the seat forward). Breaking into a turn is critical but the rewards are many. The car must be in a straight line to break hard otherwise the back may come around. Also putting in brake bias control is a big help. When the weight transfers forward under braking, you want as much rear wheel grip as possible without slide to maximize grip. Rear bias improves this.

Coming out of a turn, you want weight in the back to help plant the wheels. Accelerating shifts the weight towards the back, but more static weith back there helps a bit more.

I think we need to keep in mind that hansling of a rear bias car is different than the handling of a Fiero. The suspension geometry makes a big difference. If a Porsche had a similar suspension geometry to the Fiero, it could not perform nearly as well and we would probably have a very different opinion of the car. Likewise with a good geometry, The Fiero can do many wonderful things and shock many people.

My 2 cents for what it is worth.

Paul

quote Originally posted by cultcar: The rear-weight bias on Fieros is not ideal. Only Porsche has managed to dial out this problem over time in their 911 series. It is about front/rear sway bar balance, wider rubber on the rear, and just learning to drive a line through the turns that uses the rear weight.

Honestly, the Porsche 911 isn't really an overall great handling car. Like the Fiero, it can really get the power to the ground because the weight is on the driving wheels which are in the back, but the 911 has gross understeer which requires a REALLY good driver to be able to handle. The real truth is... rear-engined layout is what makes up the roots of Porsche heritage. It is for NO other reason, that they keep the 911 around as their flagship. Ask any real Porsche enthusiast, and this is what they'll tell you. All of their other cars are mid-engined, or front engined.

A 944/S2 would kill any 911 in a slolam or SCCA Solo-2 race.
Todd,
2006 Pontiac Solstice
2002 Crown Victoria LX-P74
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1984 Porsche 944
1981 Pontiac TransAm WS6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

We have members in Golden Gate Fieros that run their Fieros on road race tracks regularly. They do very well against the modern track-ready cars; only thing the drivers wish for is more power. They're all running V6 cars with manual transaxles and have a lot of fun on track days.

so mabey we should make a michigan fiero track club

quote Originally posted by Whuffo: We have members in Golden Gate Fieros that run their Fieros on road race tracks regularly. They do very well against the modern track-ready cars; only thing the drivers wish for is more power. They're all running V6 cars with manual transaxles and have a lot of fun on track days.

Right... I met Greg Barron at Buttonwillow last year. Unfortunately, I was so busy tending to my car, I had very little time to talk with him. He has a very nice looking white 88 with a 3.4 which developed wheel bearing problems during the course of the weekend.

Also met another Fiero owner at Willow Springs (Larry Hughes from San Diego as I recall ) I think his car is pictured here: http://www.fierosofsandiego.org/trakphot.jpg

He was there only for Saturday, and since he was in a different group, we were on a different rotation, and thus, did not have much time to talk.

Maybe we should start looking at an event. I can recommend Buttonwillow as it is about half way between San Diego and Bay Area, and right off the I-5 freeway.

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FierOmar

[This message has been edited by FierOmar (edited 04-03-2007).]

thanks guys for all the supplies.

currently i am working on a budget and doing research on how much it is going to cost.

im thinking of starting the project late april early may, with hopes of getting it done before summer ends.

i have decided an 05 l32 motor with a 4 speed muncie(gearing undecided), coilovers all around, and a lebaron brake conversion to get me started. i need to look at some local track rules to get the specs on thier classes, to see if i can squeeze into one, cause it would be fun to do competitive racing(but that wont probably be until next summer).

thanks again guys for all your help, it has made my decision a lot easier.

Matt

quote Originally posted by FierOmar: Right... I met Greg Barron at Buttonwillow last year. Unfortunately, I was so busy tending to my car, I had very little time to talk with him. He has a very nice looking white 88 with a 3.4 which developed wheel bearing problems during the course of the weekend. Also met another Fiero owner at Willow Springs (Larry Hughes from San Diego as I recall ) I think his car is pictured here: http://www.fierosofsandiego.org/trakphot.jpg He was there only for Saturday, and since he was in a different group, we were on a different rotation, and thus, dkd not have much time to talk. Maybe we should start looking at an event. I can recommend Buttonwillow as is is about half way between San Diego and Bay Area, and right off the I-5 freeway.

Another member is Brian at our club. He races basically stock fieros as far as I know and he manages to keep up with the best of them. He's an instructor with a track day group.

On the point of proper braking bias between front and rear, I installed the Wilwood proportioning valve. I adjusted it by having an observer watch for wheel lock-up as I performed hard braking as I approached him. He was looking for the front wheels to lock up just before the rear wheels locked up. We adjusted the valve and tried again until we saw this.

quote Originally posted by FierOmar: Maybe we should start looking at an event. I can recommend Buttonwillow as it is about half way between San Diego and Bay Area, and right off the I-5 freeway.

Unfortunately, the times I've tried to set up events around a track day the attendance was almost zero. The usual track people attend, everyone else didn't seem to care.

Hope to see you at Westfest this year...

quote Originally posted by Whuffo: Unfortunately, the times I've tried to set up events around a track day the attendance was almost zero. The usual track people attend, everyone else didn't seem to care. Hope to see you at Westfest this year...

Well we might have more luck this year finding people to go to track days. I've met new Fiero owners in Monterey this weekend, some of autocross and track with NASA. I know I was surprised too. [sarcasm] There is Fiero owners that will actually take their car on a track. [/end sarcasm]