Hey Guys...

I just took the wing off my 88GT. Taking her out on the track this weekend and I decided that a 50% increase in rear visibility was worth the 1 minute modification

My first drive with the wing off proved just how much of the window it blocks, I was amazed at how good my visibility is. And I know it's just my mind messing with me, but the Fiero feels faster and more nimble through the 0 - 75mph range.

Anyway, removing the wing lead me to wonder, what does it actually do for the car? Is the rear wing on the Fiero fastback purely style? Or does it actually serve some aerodynamic purpose?

This car is a hobby/track car for me, so information along the lines of "it stops the car from flipping over at 110 mph" is actually quite helpful to me

Anybody know?

Its strictly a cosmetic thing. They put them on tons of cars just to look sporty. Only ones that DO work are on cars that go 150 mph. A very few brands do have another purpose...they cut down on dirt gathering on the rear end and tail lights, but their designed to do that. Anyone that drives a Firebird on the freeway and tells you how great it handles with that new spoiler is full of it.

Technically, its called a "spoiler", and it has a very real purpose on our cars. Ever wonder why the drag coefficient is lower for cars with spoilers than without (not to mention the notchback vs fastback )? The spoiler stops the air under the car from travelling back over the decklid into the vacuum pocket behind the window. Effectively you are driving around with a slightly larger parachute if you take it off.

While we are on it, notchbacks are more aerodynamic than fastbacks due to a smaller vacuum bubble. shoots/scores

Yea,it creates drag,but it has a purpose (down force)....
http://www.physlink.com/Edu...AskExperts/ae496.cfm

AP2K
Do you have wind tunnel evidence to back this claim up? I would like to believe that spoilers on the average production car do something besides add drag but some how I don't think that the companies put that kinda of Wind tunnel time in.

[This message has been edited by Strider (edited 06-27-2007).]

I would agree with cosmetic, on the Fiero anyway. I would not give GM that much credit to suggest that they spent X amount of dollars on designing a functional wing when they spent next to nothing on suspension.

mostly cosmetic
there is a slight areadynamic function in splitting the slow/backwards air which wraps up & backwards across the deck from the air going over the car.
but, for a real "working" wing - look at any Fiero race car - Whale Tail. blocks the up & backwards air & makes the back deck a dead air pocket, and gives some downforce.

quote Originally posted by James Bond 007: Yea,it creates drag,but it has a purpose (down force).... http://www.physlink.com/Edu...AskExperts/ae496.cfm

Wing != spoiler.

Spoilers are general purpose to put on a car and you might get ever so slightly less drag with a few weeks and millions of dollars in a wind tunnel.

[This message has been edited by AP2k (edited 06-27-2007).]

quote Originally posted by AP2k: Wing != spoiler. Spoilers are general purpose to put on a car to do a specific thing and you might get ever so slightly less drag with a few weeks and millions of dollars in a wind tunnel.

Again that article was in reference to a RACE PREPARED car not a street car so it has no part in this discussion. If you say that slapping a wing on a car does something other then add drag (which adding anything to the wind flow creates drag no mater how slippery it is) then the Ebay special that some dude made in his garage will help out any car. That simply is not the case Aerodynamics is a much more complex field of study then that.

quote Originally posted by Strider: Again that article was in reference to a RACE PREPARED car not a street car so it has no part in this discussion. If you say that slapping a wing on a car does something other then add drag (which adding anything to the wind flow creates drag no mater how slippery it is) then the Ebay special that some dude made in his garage will help out any car. That simply is not the case Aerodynamics is a much more complex field of study then that.

Which was my entire point to begin with....

Aerodynamics is only complex when you have a complex shape. Drag = v^2 * face_area * density_of_fluid * drag_coefficient

If I attach a large bucket to the back of my car, its pretty obvious that it increases my drag coefficient, no? So, if I take off the bucket, it goes back down. Taking the buckets off a car is simple when you know where the obvious ones are going to be and you dont need a wind tunnel to know there is a large vacumm "bucket" directly behind the window.

[This message has been edited by AP2k (edited 06-27-2007).]

So the real question here is in "amount of change"

[This message has been edited by Mr Schaefer (edited 06-27-2007).]

Ok so knowing you have an Aerodynamic issue and designing a solution for this problem are 2 different things. I don't see that then knowing there is an issue instantly makes the wing they put on the car actually solve the problem. Does it help? maybe, I'm not an Aerodynamic engineer. To the extent that its going to effect the car greatly without a wing I highly doubt it. Everything I have ever seen about production cars leads me to believe that the main point of that wing was to sell cars.

Fashion over function on a Fiero. IMO the GT's look better without a wing anyway. But I'm probably vastly in the minority on that opinion.

The rear wing reduces drag.
On a notchback it will increase highway MPG by almost 2 MPG. Well at least on a 1986 SE traveling 60-65 mph down I-57 in Illinois.
The Fiero wing does very little with downforce. I know I have had water beads on the rear wing after a short rain and run the car up to 80 mph and the water just sits there. The far ends the water ran off but the main middle section still had water. Which means there is no down pressure on the wing. The IMSA spoiler is what adds downforce as the spoiler "scoops" the air towards the center becase it is designed to be wider than the body and scoop the air towards the middle of the decklid. Wings and spoilers have functions. Some reduce drag and some increase downforce and some will do both. Most production cars use it to reduce drag. This allows the vehicle to get a 1-2 MPG better highway rating. With all the EPA rules on MPG specs this is a help to the manufacturers. The production spoilers and wings usually sit too low and/or too far forward to be effective in downforce.

quote Originally posted by fierobeel: Fashion over function on a Fiero. IMO the GT's look better without a wing anyway. But I'm probably vastly in the minority on that opinion.

I actually agree with you on that one.. Yellowstone's fiero is what made me consider removing it in the first place on a pure style level..

http://www.qsl.net/ki7cx/Fiero.htm

Aereodynamic Drag Coefficient .357 without rear wing, .350 with rear wing.

quote Originally posted by AP2k: http://www.qsl.net/ki7cx/Fiero.htm Aereodynamic Drag Coefficient .357 without rear wing, .350 with rear wing.

If these figures are correct; at highway speeds the difference in these figures 7/100th should show a negligible diffference in gas mileage. According to my calculations the wing should provide a good amount of handling support at speeds in excess of 160 MPH!!!!!

------------------
87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

ok, while not the actual car we are discussing (different body and wing) it does seem that there is a chance of less drag. i would like to see where he got his numbers from.

quote Originally posted by AP2k: http://www.qsl.net/ki7cx/Fiero.htm Aereodynamic Drag Coefficient .357 without rear wing, .350 with rear wing.

That's for the coupe.. any information on the fastback?

What does the wing do??

Easy

Breaks free, smashes through the back window and taps your head through the high seat-backs when you get rear-ended.

Okay, who wants to send this in to Mythbusters. Does the spoiler/wing on an average car (not designed for high speed) have any effect on fuel economy or stabilty/traction. I say no.

quote Originally posted by rotten: What does the wing do?? Easy Breaks free, smashes through the back window and taps your head through the high seat-backs when you get rear-ended.

O.o

Mine is at just the right height to block the headlights of those big trucks coming up behind me so I don't go blind!

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: If these figures are correct; at highway speeds the difference in these figures 7/100th should show a negligible diffference in gas mileage. According to my calculations the wing should provide a good amount of handling support at speeds in excess of 160 MPH!!!!!

A poster above said it helps milage 1-2 miles, which is ~%3-6 depending on which transmission we are discussing. So %7 isnt negligible.

Please dont be a fool and fall for the same thing others have. Spoilers are not meant to provide downforce.

I thought there was an official statement of the decrease of drag with the rear wing form GM that was quoted in the early reviews,
but honestly I don;t feel like digging for it right now.
As fo it keeps the rear bumber and lights clean????? what are you joking? both my SE with the wing and my gt both turn the bumpers black with road dust in a few days of travel. if the effect mentioned above is true, it moved the bubble right over the bumper and lights. maybe there is something to that moving it back further then......

as for cosmetics, I prefer the wing, tho I found the effect on ToyBoy's The Perfect Union to be perfect. I think if it is chopped, the wing can go, if not it helps break up the (quoting MadCurl here) Bubble top effect..

Wow! Testy, testy, testy. And over a spoiler. That's what makes Fiero owners so passionate. So I will ad to the mix. I have the performance portifolio magazine that you can buy from the Fiero Store. It is a collection of magazine articles released in the 80's when the car was in production. (ie. Motor Trend etc.) And the drag #'s that AP2k state are accurate according to info in there. So there is "scientific data" to back the claim that the spoiler does have an affect. The main sticking point everyone seems to have a differing "oppinion" on is, Is it a signifigant difference and did Pontiac do it for cosmetics or performance? So in my humble oppinion I think it was strictly for looks and did not provide a negligable performance improvement, and neither did Car and Driver in there 1986 article on the Fiero GT. Car and Drivers' beef was a welcome but underpowered V-6, a car that is too heavy for a two seater, and woeful steering that no spoiler will help. Not that anyone asked or cares, but that's my and Car and Drivers 2 cents worth.

Jim

quote Originally posted by AP2k: A poster above said it helps milage 1-2 miles, which is ~%3-6 depending on which transmission we are discussing. So %7 isnt negligible.

Not sure if it matters.. but the "poster above" was talking about a 1986 SE.. so a different spoiler on a different body style of car with a potentially different engine/tranny setup.

If we're really looking at real-life effects of the spoiler on drag and aerodynamics and what that does to grip, performance and economy.. I would like to make sure we're all talking about the fastback body design with the GT-style spoiler.

[This message has been edited by Mr Schaefer (edited 06-27-2007).]

My stock Fiero wing makes my car go 200 mph and it gets 100 mile per gallon.
Seriously I would say the only thing it does is make it look cool. There is no way the spoiler on my Fiero or stock v6 Mustang does anything. Now a new GT 500 Mustang's spoiler actually makes down force and reduces drag at 120 mph.

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: As fo it keeps the rear bumber and lights clean????? what are you joking?

That is for SOME cars, Fiero not included. It does do that on Mercedes AMG cars. An on station wagons and SUVs, the little wing is there specificly for that purpose. If you tape some pieces of yarn on your Fiero wing, jump on the freeway and see what happens. There is no downforce and in fact the air flows back toward the front of the car / rear window. Ya, the yarn will blow towards the front. It may do something different at 160 mph, but few cars, much less Fieros are capable of that, The various wings/ spoilers that come on say factory Hondas, Cavaliers, Firebirds....etc dont do a thing besides add weight and look cool...period. We went all over this years ago. If you like its looks or not, thats all it does.

also - many wings on cars are for keeping down the "rooster tail" when driving on the freeway in the rain.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: That is for SOME cars, Fiero not included. It does do that on Mercedes AMG cars. An on station wagons and SUVs, the little wing is there specificly for that purpose. If you tape some pieces of yarn on your Fiero wing, jump on the freeway and see what happens. There is no downforce and in fact the air flows back toward the front of the car / rear window. Ya, the yarn will blow towards the front. It may do something different at 160 mph, but few cars, much less Fieros are capable of that, The various wings/ spoilers that come on say factory Hondas, Cavaliers, Firebirds....etc dont do a thing besides add weight and look cool...period. We went all over this years ago. If you like its looks or not, thats all it does.

No offense ther Roger, thought you meant the fiero. 160? what makes you think you can't do that? but other than that, I agree it is not really effective. the wrap around one mentioned in the earlier post would be effective, I had that on a previous car with a custom front air dam, and at 150 mph the car was literally glued to the road, the effect kicked in at around 95 mph, and you could feel it drop the car dow with the combo of suction and rear downforce. too bad I ran out of LIE before I found the top end, but it theoretically was 185 mph, not bad for a na 3.8.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: That is for SOME cars, Fiero not included. It does do that on Mercedes AMG cars. An on station wagons and SUVs, the little wing is there specificly for that purpose. If you tape some pieces of yarn on your Fiero wing, jump on the freeway and see what happens. There is no downforce and in fact the air flows back toward the front of the car / rear window. Ya, the yarn will blow towards the front. It may do something different at 160 mph, but few cars, much less Fieros are capable of that, The various wings/ spoilers that come on say factory Hondas, Cavaliers, Firebirds....etc dont do a thing besides add weight and look cool...period. We went all over this years ago. If you like its looks or not, thats all it does.

Or just leave some tree-leaves on the decklid in the fall.. They tend to just blow around in circles on the trunk and collect at the 1/4 windows ( on a GT ). Or you can watch the snow blow around ( until it melts that is )

Both of my GT's do the same exact thing, and one has a spoiler, the other doesn't. So i cant imagine that its a noticeable difference.

Ive got an 86 se, notchy of course.... at 100mph with the 2.8 without any body modifications the car felt very "floaty" i guess. Like it was about to lift off the ground.

I added a front cowle. At 100mph the car handled a lot better.

After adding a wing i found, at 100 the car was super tight, hunch's to the ground. You can actually feel the road instead of it feeling like rudders in water.

Ill take stability over caring how much drag the wing makes, it cant be to much, nothing like a parachute behind ya. wont matter much with the 3800 anyways lol.

ive never used a stock wing, i dont know how it feels but from the looks of it, thats all it seems to be - looks.

But dont hate the ricer wing lol. From experience, mine IS working at high speeds. Once my car is running again and anyones in the area ill let you drive it with and with out the wing to prove it.



http://i25.photobucket.com/...ainoiswasted/fly.jpg

The spoiler (and the whole Aero package) were developed for the Indy pace car effort. A regular bumperpad notchie has aerodynamic problems at high speeds, so some GM marketing money was spent developing a fix. The air dam on the front reduces lift at the front of the car - the spoiler on the back reduces drag. These changes allowed the specially prepared Fieros that paced Indy to lap at 135 MPH on that track.

Yes, the spoiler works and there was wind tunnel testing done on the Aero package.

At this late date - the most important part of that aerodynamic package is the front air dam. Bumperpad cars without the aero nose get light in the front at higher speeds; over 100 is kinda spooky in one of those. But the spoiler still decreases drag; it's worth 4 or 5 MPH more top speed or 1 or 2 MPG. It also interferes with the view out the rear window. If you're just driving around town and "Rickey Racing" your Fiero then the spoiler isn't very important. But if you drive your Fiero at high speeds, the spoiler will help you quite a bit.

In my opinion, for the daily street driven Fiero, the spoiler is nothing more than a cosmetic piece that does block the rear view mirror vision. With that said I have not removed either from my Formula or GT. Like the look with and without but not enough to remove them. For street driving I don't believe it serves any purpose other than looks.

quote Originally posted by fierobeel: Fashion over function on a Fiero. IMO the GT's look better without a wing anyway. But I'm probably vastly in the minority on that opinion.

I do, i have one original without wing ( GT )

quote Originally posted by Mr Schaefer: Hey Guys... Anyway, removing the wing lead me to wonder, what does it actually do for the car? Is the rear wing on the Fiero fastback purely style? Or does it actually serve some aerodynamic purpose? Anybody know?

It makes the notchbacks look better?

quote Originally posted by James Bond 007: Yea,it creates drag,but it has a purpose (down force).... http://www.physlink.com/Edu...AskExperts/ae496.cfm

After installing one of Rodney Dickman's deck lid support struts on the driver's side of my 85GT notchie, I noticed that the AJAR light started to flash at road speeds. The faster I got, the faster it flashed, until up round 60-70, it stayed on continuously, until I began to slow down.

It seems that if there is any downforce exerted as a result of having the spoiler, it's very negligable, and only has downforce when the car is standing still, simply due to it's weight, since it seems to be overriden by the air pressure underneath, in the engine compartment, or swirling up from the tail light area.