My ZZ4 was purchased brand new 20,000 miles and around 6 years ago. Today on the highway I was doing around 70 in 4th (5 spd) and it suddenly started slowing down with no noise at all. At first I thought a brake was locking or I was running out of gas. I declutched and saw all the idiot lights and when I let the clutch out it wouldn't turn over. Before this happened all gages, oil pressure and temp were normal. After letting the car cool down beside the road I got it started but it had low oil pressure, made strange noises, and barely ran. A tow truck brought us home. Oil level is normal and clean.
Sounds like it spun a bearing or something but I'd certainly like to hear what happened and more importantly WHY. This car has never been raced although I'm not shy about winding it up to around 5500 RPM. I did that the other day and noticed it seemed to bog down at around 5200 when I know from experience it will wind up more than that to just over 5500. ------------------ 88GT ZZ4 Sequential EFI www.bigstuff3.com - 275 RWHP Dyno'd
[This message has been edited by V8Steve (edited 07-04-2007).]
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03:52 PM
PFF
System Bot
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24108 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Did you ever hear a knocking noise? Knocking is really the only indication of a failing crank or rod bearing. Otherwise, it's possible that your oil pump simply went bad. It's uncommon for this to happen since the oil pump is obviously lubricated 24/7. If you can CRANK the motor, then it's definitely not seized. However, if you have little to no oil pressure, then the lifters aren't going to have enough pressure to pump up, and therefore will not give you enough, or any power at all since it's basically like there's almost no camshaft in there.
My advice would be to drain your oil and check it for metal shavings.
If you don't see any, then it's probably more likely a problem with the pump... :\
Todd, Thanks. There was no knocking noise are any audible warning whatsoever. It just started slowing down, in fact I instinctively gave it more gas with no results.
It turns over now with some difficulty but doesn't fire. It doesn't take long for the starter to slow down as it's just too much strain to turn it over.
Back beside the highway when I was able to restart it the engine ran uneven and it had about 20# oil pressure at an rpm where it should have had much more than that. When it was still hot, I could not budge it with the starter..it was all locked up.
That sucks.... I would drop the pan and take off the mains and rod caps to see what the bearings look like. I would suspect an oil delivery issue, but the hard part will be figuring out where started.
It really was bad news....I have a small barn where I do the car work and just pulled out the 88GT to make room for the building of two sea kayaks. To make matters worse I was on my way to www.summernationals.com the huge East Coast car show.
I'm beginning to Google "buy ZZ4 short block". I'll bet what I find inside won't be pretty.
Possibly a bad cat, but it could be the alternater died.When the alternater goes,your running just on the battery untill all the battery juice is gone.Check your battery grounds too.I allso agree with "GKDINC" might be the battery.If your hearing any unusuall noises,then you have engine problems.It's really hard to seize a motor with oil in the engine.Try pulling the engine codes.
Battery was fully charged a few days ago and it doesn't explain why the engine seized on an Interstate. Shortly after it seized I was able to start it but it made strange internal noises, ran rough, had low oil pressure and finally quit on its own. Will pull plugs and see if it will turn over with no compression.
The only thing that's clear is that when it seized up at 60-70 mph it felt like the brakes were on and when I declutched and then engaged the clutch again...it was fully locked and wouldn't turn over to restart on the fly.
I'm just thinking out loud.....what would happen if the distributor gear failed? It wouldn't drive the oil pump and the entire spark process would come to a halt. Will pull distributor and check the gear right away.
Someone posted earlier about the cat. Are you even running one?
I had it one day going to work just do kinda the same thing... Just died. Tripped multiple codes. Let it sit for a few and got it started again but would barely run/move. Ended up being the cat. Best of luck.
------------------ Dana Mitchell Member of the Gateway Fiero Club 88 GT Red w/ 5-Speed,86 SE Red w/ Black 3.2L w/ T-440,87 GT Blue w/ 5-Speed, 87 GT Maroon w/ Silver w/ Auto 95 Impala SS, 95 Roadmaster Estate Wagon w/ Air Ride 2-Tone w/ Ghost Flames 07 Silverado Classic Crew Cab 5.3L, 06 HHR (wife's ride), 91 CBR1000F Is that enough?
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12:40 AM
the reverend Member
Posts: 298 From: Foster, KY, USA Registered: Apr 2007
I took an engine that was hard to crank apart and found that one of the pistons was out of round. The piston skirt had spread open putting pressure on the cylinder wall. This was on a Chev. 350 4 bolt main engine.
His gauge is showing pressure so I doubt there is anything wrong with the pump or cam gear. Here is what I found in a 96 350 core I purchased a while back, there wasn't much in the way of shavings in the pan but enough of the bearings melted to get a good grip on the crank to keep it from turning. I believe his suspicion is correct.
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01:47 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Timing gear jumped a tooth or two is another possibility. When it does, it will do it without any kind of warning. I had a car I drove that ran fine, parked it after a drive and the next time I started it, it would barely turn over.
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06:59 AM
tesmith66 Member
Posts: 7355 From: Jerseyville, IL Registered: Sep 2001
GM's warranty is 24 months or 50K miles. Since he's had it for 6 years it is out of warranty.
It could also be a bad cam. The way he describes how it just slowed down sounds like the old 305's from the early 80's. They used bad cams and the lobes would wear down, the engine would lose power, and it would also kill the lifters creating the strained turn over.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 07-05-2007).]
Started it up this AM with jumper cables. It runs rough, has a banging inside, and oil pressure is normal. Next step is to drain oil, cut open filter, and look for chips. I have a relationship with Quest Racing in Worcester and Mike will come over and listen to it. He believes the problem most likely began with a main bearing and went to the rods. It seems like the plan will be to rebuild the ZZ4 and we'll know exactly what's inside for parts, clearances, etc. Now's the time to change the cam and heads as well. We'll probably do this over the winter.
I'm not going to drop the pan yet as I need to run this for just enough time to back it into my barn - only a minute or two.
Unfortunately this ZZ4 was bought new from GM, not abused, and apparently failed in 20,000 miles.
Christian, I ran a Google for "ZZ4 spun bearing" and found mine is not the only one. This is why I won't buy a ZZ4 shortblock and go through this again. I hardly ever drove this car, maybe 4,000 miles/year, changed oil and filter every season, etc. For sure it's probably a small % that have this happen but once is enough for me.
At one point I realized that even if my engine failed during the warranty period, a claim wouldn't fly because of the vehicle it was installed in. I feel lucky because I never had to make a claim to GMPD (Flow Chevrolet). Their whole installing it in a non-SBC vehicle deal probably would've voided the warranty anyway.
Finally moved the crippled ZZ4 into the barn after it sat all summer. It started instantly and it continues to rap inside. Today I let it run for about ten minutes to warm up. The throttle response is great and it still raps inside. Oil pressure is fine. Before I pull this engine I hope to draw on the PPF member experience.
I started this thread when it suddenly seized up on the highway. If it had a bearing problem, can I still have good oil pressure? After about 10 minutes of running it had 40 psi at idle and the needle was fairly steady and not jumping all over the place.
You never drained the oil to check it out? Plugs? Oil pump seems not to be the problem. But if it is making some noise then something may be loose inside. Also is the noise coming from the engine? I had once a terrible noise which ended up being just a crack in the muffler.
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04:25 PM
fieroguru Member
Posts: 12295 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
I would normally say you originally lost a main bearing, which spread to the rod bearings, but with good oil presure it almost has to be a piston that siezed in the cylinder, from your discription of the symptoms. it's a very slim chance that it could be a cam bearing , but still.... if it's not a piston/cyl problem I'll send you a new Fiero.
Russ544
------------------ It's just like building a canoe out of a log. first you cut down a tree........ then you cut off everything that doesn't look like a canoe.
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 11-26-2007).]
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05:31 PM
tjm4fun Member
Posts: 3781 From: Long Island, NY USA Registered: Feb 2006
Honestly, what is with all the conjecture? just drop the pan and check. you;re spending more time speculating than it would take to pull the motor! most likely it is a bearing issue, tho the piston is possible and there is a large chunk in the pan. at anyrate, the only way to be sure is to check the motor. like the commercials say, just do it. I split a crank on a 3.8 on a drive home form work, towed it home, took a nap, and pulled the pan off that afternoon. the motor was fully dissasembled 2 hours later with my new easy to carry 2 piece crank.
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05:53 PM
josef644 Member
Posts: 6939 From: Dickinson, Texas USA Registered: Nov 2006
I had a Jeep Cherokee that did this same thing. It was the AMC 4 banger. It was caused by a hole in one piston doing all of this crap. Be prepared to break her down. I would stop any more running the engine until it is repaired. There might be more damage caused, like scoreing the wall of a cylinder or something like that. I drove mine about 10 miles to the next town where I sought out help. I had to bore all holes .030 to clean up the mess in the one bad cylinder. Joe
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07:45 PM
chevypro101 Member
Posts: 64 From: Baltimore MD 21222 Registered: Nov 2007
This is what I was thinking. I lost a freeze plug in my ol truck with a 350 in it. I didnt notice it till I got a few miles from the house when the temps where high. It froze the motor up where it would not turn over from the cyliners swelling. I let it cool down, added some water and drove it back home where I added a freeze plug, flushed the system and added coolant. Never had any more problems out of it but its wasnt making any niose either.
I value your individual inputs and don't view your ideas as conjecture.
My car is on Archie's customer site under "Customer Cars". I did my best to build it right and began with a new ZZ4 in order to avoid potential problems such as with engines I've built myself in the past. In those cases the problems all stemmed from shoddy machine shop work. Today...those shops are gone and there are few good ones around. In roughly 7-8 years, this car has been totally trouble free and never raced or driven hard. It's got about 22,000 miles on it since the swap.
I think this thread has some value for potential ZZ4 buyers to learn from my own experience.
This seems to be homing in on some kind of a piston problem since it still runs and holds oil pressure. I'll pull it out in the next month.
Hopefully the block is OK and I'll end up with a 355.
Is it possible you dropped like a plug tip or something made it into the motor and you put a hole in the top of a piston. The other 7 would work, but it would just run like crap like you've described.
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11:45 PM
prostreet505 Member
Posts: 426 From: Wind Lake, WI 53185 Registered: May 2007
I hate to give you bad news but, you can have a spun rod bearing and it will not effect oil pressure that much. You can even spin a main bearing and have it not effect oil pressure if there is a high volume oil pump installed. I think the crate ZZ4 has a high volume pump installed.
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11:53 PM
Nov 27th, 2007
aaronrus Member
Posts: 870 From: bradenton, FL USA Registered: Nov 2003
doood.. just buy an '01 or later LS1 from a wrecked car, buy a set of stage 2 ls6 heads and a decent cam to match, and then port yoru throttle body.. you'll be like zz4 what??
Could have been caused by a failed or failing oil pump or just plain old bad luck.
