So i dyno'd my car this evening, and got some fine tuning done on the X machine. The old dyno shop (S&S for future reference) I used to go to went out of business a year or so ago. I went to a new place this time (Wichita Dyno), that has a different kind of dyno. First off the old shop had a dynojet dyno. I made 477 whp and 515 tq. Of course my hp peaked at 5150 rpm because i was outflowing my maf. See thread i made the other day. Anyway, this dyno uses a Dyno Dynamics Dyno, its a load chassis dyno, and reads differently than dynojet. Dynojet's dont have any load, and are fake numbers, which makes me question Nick Wagoneers LS1 nitrous fiero dyno, thats on the main page of this forum. I would like to learn more about his dyno session and what kind of equipment was used.
I am very impressed with the Dyno Dynamics unit. It had an input for my boost that I hooked to the engine, had a sensor that i hooked into the air filter, and also had wideband (although i have wideband on my car already).
so a funny story before I get to the results, there is a guy here in Wichita that has a turbo LS1 silverado, that made right at 600 wheel hp at S&S, and only 435 whp at Wichita Dyno. Interesting.
And another story before i get to the results :P my first pull i ran 13 psi, my second I turned it all the way up to 21 psi. I found that I was going lean at anything over 18 psi so i turned the boost down despite that pull being my highest numbers.
On my first pull I made 403.8 whp and 355 ftlbs, on 13.1 psi of boost 11.6:1 AFR 2nd pull 443.6 whp 418.7 ftlbs on 21.6 psi boost and get this 13.2:1 AFR, and the engine held together!!! 3rd pull had to let out early, testing fuel pressure 4th pull 433.1 hp 397.6 tq 15.6 psi boost 11.7:1 steady until 6100 rpm then when to 13.0:1 (didnt show any KR) 5th pull 421.9 hp 383.8 ftlbs 15.6 psi boost 11.4:1 AFR steady to redline < this is where im keeping the car for now < 6th pull had issues, car accelerated very fast on the dyno, and somehow hit 488 ftlb and 460 hp at only 5000 rpm, not sure what happened exactly, but not counting it. I let out early because it didnt sound right to me. 7th pull 411.8 hp 398.0 ftlbs boost spiked early 19 psi at 4950 rpm but settled at 15.3 psi by 5850, 11.4:1 AFR 8th pull 435.7 hp 404.9 ftlbs boost hit 22.6 psi and AFR stayed steady at 12.3:1 (was doing some fuel pressure testing) no KR btw, i think i should check my knock sensors out and make sure they are working. I did let out at 5900 rpm though, so if I would of been a bit safer on the AFR, I would of beat the 2nd pull numbers, i was running the engine to 6300 on all pulls.
So all in all it was a good day. BTW these are real numbers, not fake ass dynojet numbers. Dynojets have smooth correction factors that make the dyno graph lines look all smooth and fluid, where mine look like the rocky mountains. Some of those corrections can measure up to as much as 21% different than real world numbers from what ive been reading tonight after learning about them. Thats the difference between a $40,000 dyno and a $150,000 dyno I guess.
And on a side note, this 4t65eHD i built rocks my balls!
And on another side note sunday is going to be fun
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03:05 AM
PFF
System Bot
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
Well, I spent about $2800 on a 4t65eHD with all the goodies. Then I have some drag radials that hook real well. Ive been driving it on street tires and I spun at 60 mph in 2nd gear the other day. The car is brutally and violently fast. I made an assessment that the car accelerating is like having Satan rip through the pavement and onto earth. I beat a Saturn Sky Redline on Sunday, and probably had 15 car lengths on him within 5 seconds. I also have some killer coilovers in the rear that have excellent squat properties, and the weight transfer of this car is phenominal.
I should have some vids online within 2 weeks. We have another snow storm coming.
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04:37 AM
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
Oh, and I ran a calculator on www.turbofast.com.au and it showed just what we saw on the laptop. At 22.6 psi when i about blew the sucker through the roof, I was flowing 60.5 lb/min of air through the maf. This is aprox 615 crankshaft hp on an 80% efficient engine. 650 on 85%. Pure insanity. I was actually thinking of a vanity plate, NSANITY
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04:38 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Glad to see you now have a transaxle that appears to hold the power. Can't wait to see the 1/4 mile times. Are you still expecting mid to high 10's?
About the dyno's, So is the Dyno Dynamic's the same/similar as the Mustang Dyno or is it even a different method than that? As for the DynoJet, From what I understand the DynoJet numbers are generally showing what the engine is capable of without a "road load". So basically if you wanted to compare the rated engine power with the driveline loss, Then the DynoJet is what you would use because the engines are generally rated with a static load. When I had my 3.4L dyno'd on an engine dyno they used a static load which is similar to the DynoJet. The Mustang Dyno (and possibly the Dyno Dynamics) is suppose to have "real road" numbers due to how the loading is done. Well that is the way the local dyno shop here sees it. The discussions between the different dyno methods has been an issue for quite a while now.
------------------ Happiness isn't around the corner... Happiness IS the corner. ZZ4 Powered !!
I have seen varying numbers from inertia dynos, but not that much. My car made 387 HP on a Dynojet on Power Tour and then 415 on a DynaPack unit with slight tuning upgrades. The DynaPack units are very precise units that don't use inertia motors or rollers. They bolts to the wheel hubs. See link.
So accodring to that Subaru thread and the 18.53% increase factored in, your highest run on a dynojet would have translated to 525.8/496.3 at the wheels.......That's pretty darn impressive.
I'll be looking foward to the videos and some 10-second timeslips!
like, god damn wow. 615! at the crank of a 3800. wow.
i can see it making sense that a dynapack would result in higher power ratings, considering that it doesnt take the mass and inertia of the wheels into effect when reading power and torque.
let us know of any beat downs the X lays down.
Will the car be at the Michigan Fiero show?
JC
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01:41 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
My dyno experience is with a Racing Dynamics but I think it said dyno dynamics somewhere on there. The operator told me
+15% to convert to Dynojet +8% to convert to Mustang Dyno
The 323i I put a cold air intake did 148.7 whp not bad for a car rated at 170 flywheel hp. Those things read uber low, a 2005 M3 with a 6speed, cold air intake, $1,500 exhuast, and a chip, made 249HP. Same car that was doing 160 on the drive down. The people running the dyno call it the "heart breaker" Next to nothing was getting over 250HP, it took a Lightning with a giant aftermarket blower to clear 300.
AWESOME numbers though, you ought to go to the old shop for a run to compare your previous 477 to.
[This message has been edited by Mr.PBody (edited 02-05-2008).]
I am not saying the DynaPack is the reason the rating is higher. I was actually making more power then. I think the results were pretty close between the dyno on Power Tour and the DynaPack. I didn't see huge differences with the Dynojet model 224 and the DynaPack. And I would tend to believe the DynaPack. It is a load based dyno, not an inertia based unit.
[This message has been edited by Matt Hawkins (edited 02-05-2008).]
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05:25 PM
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
From what ive read in the last 18 hours, dynapack units read about 5-8% higher than dynojet's, and dynojets read anywhere from 8-22% higher than dyno dynamics. I bet I could put down 550-570 on a dynapack. It would be interesting to try.
Mr. PBody, I cant go to the old dyno shop, they went out of business about a year ago. There is another dynojet in Wichita though, and Ive been thinking about making a pull on it too see if I can just kill Nick Wagoneers number for fun
darkhorizon, yeah, but what machines are they dynoing on? My bottom end is modified, but Im not going to risk my setup with some junk ass hyper pistons, and cast rods, when readily available are forged pistons and rods. I was talking to Zooomer on the phone one day and he told me "nobody has broken a stock L67 rod yet, so why would you want L32 rods?" I said "because i have a lot of money in this thing, and I dont want to be the first".
JC, I am hoping to make it to Michigan. Depends on how everything goes with the shop im opening soon. I wont be registering, just showing up and causing some trouble.
Zeb, No, its 87 with coilovers, and full poly. Dont think it would help at all, and Im definitely not swapping cradles at this point, I spent tons of time and money on my new mounts.
Billybo455, No, its the 7/8" chain, I bought a 3.29 setup from the tranny parts store for a 4t60e, and machined it for the 65eHD. Then had all the pieces cryo'd.
BTW Amir has all of the pulls on video. Ill see what I can do to get one online.
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06:14 PM
Matt Hawkins Member
Posts: 586 From: Waterford, MI Registered: Oct 2000
FieroX, what did you trap speeds work out to be when you had put down the questioned 477? Did it correlate to the 1/4 calculations for that HP at the wheels? They seem to work out reasonably well with my car. With me in the car, it weighs 3150. I trapped just over 118 which equates to ~410 at the wheels. This seems to indicate that the DynaPack is accurate.
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06:30 PM
Fierobsessed Member
Posts: 4782 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 2001
Iv'e always been a fan of Dynojets. They measure what is important, how fast you can accelerate a mass using your wheels which is a true measure of how fast the car should be. But if you have a lighter set of wheels, your numbers will be higher.
A resistance Dyno has its perks too. It tells you how much force your engine puts out, minus the negligable losses of friction between the engine and the Dynomometer. It should theoretically give you the best #'s because it doesn't take driveline mass into account, It tries to see how much torque it takes to get the engine to maintain an RPM, then backs off a touch to let the engine go through its range. A lighter set of wheels will not change these numbers.
Congrats on the #'s, You may get that magic 10.X slip yet, just keep it together and have a good run.
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09:37 PM
PFF
System Bot
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
FieroX, what did you trap speeds work out to be when you had put down the questioned 477? Did it correlate to the 1/4 calculations for that HP at the wheels? They seem to work out reasonably well with my car. With me in the car, it weighs 3150. I trapped just over 118 which equates to ~410 at the wheels. This seems to indicate that the DynaPack is accurate.
I made 477 at 5150 rpm, and ran 124 mph with it hitting the rev limiter in each gear and having to let out for the shift because the tranny was a piece of crap. I was outflowing my maf at aprox 5100 rpm, but it was going to 6400 when it would hit the rev. Just a total waste of time really. My car weighs 2950 with my 200lb ass in there. and I only date skinny girls, If i happen to run into ya on the street
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10:15 PM
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
Iv'e always been a fan of Dynojets. They measure what is important, how fast you can accelerate a mass using your wheels which is a true measure of how fast the car should be. But if you have a lighter set of wheels, your numbers will be higher.
A resistance Dyno has its perks too. It tells you how much force your engine puts out, minus the negligable losses of friction between the engine and the Dynomometer. It should theoretically give you the best #'s because it doesn't take driveline mass into account, It tries to see how much torque it takes to get the engine to maintain an RPM, then backs off a touch to let the engine go through its range. A lighter set of wheels will not change these numbers.
Congrats on the #'s, You may get that magic 10.X slip yet, just keep it together and have a good run.
See the thing is, you said they measure whats important, but your accelerating a mass of weight that has no bearing on actual road acceleration. I used to dyno my car on a dynojet, and the pull would last like 4 seconds. Well, Im not in a top fuel dragster, so that has no bearing on what power you are actually putting to the pavement. Plus once the roller is in motion, it continues in motion until the brakes are applied. It takes constant power to keep a load dyno going. You can let off, and let the dynojet coast, and it will still show your putting out 400 hp or whatever. Im thinking about putting my car back on a dynojet to see what happens. I bet i can get close to 550.
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10:19 PM
Feb 6th, 2008
Steven Snyder Member
Posts: 3324 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
Originally posted by Fierobsessed: A resistance Dyno has its perks too. It tells you how much force your engine puts out, minus the negligable losses of friction between the engine and the Dynomometer. It should theoretically give you the best #'s because it doesn't take driveline mass into account, It tries to see how much torque it takes to get the engine to maintain an RPM, then backs off a touch to let the engine go through its range. A lighter set of wheels will not change these numbers.
While you CAN run it that way (holding an RPM while at WOT to see how much torque is being made) most of the time they are just set so you get a nice consistent acceleration rate that may or may not be similar to that which you experience on the road. Otherwise, the run will take a VERY long time as you stop at each RPM you want to measure the torque at. More sampling points will take longer. So unless the dyno run is being done that way (loading it up at each RPM you want to sample at, then measuring static WOT torque at that speed), driveline inertia still plays a role. I don't know of anyone who has produced a dyno graph that shows the result of such a test, but I'm sure someone has done it.
I made 477 at 5150 rpm, and ran 124 mph with it hitting the rev limiter in each gear and having to let out for the shift because the tranny was a piece of crap. I was outflowing my maf at aprox 5100 rpm, but it was going to 6400 when it would hit the rev. Just a total waste of time really. My car weighs 2950 with my 200lb ass in there. and I only date skinny girls, If i happen to run into ya on the street
According to your mph you made 440hp on that run.
I am now trying to decide what my new signature will be.
------------------ the only fiero's running 10's have longitudinally mounted drivetrain, and the handling is pretty good.
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12:11 AM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
darkhorizon, yeah, but what machines are they dynoing on? My bottom end is modified, but Im not going to risk my setup with some junk ass hyper pistons, and cast rods, when readily available are forged pistons and rods. I was talking to Zooomer on the phone one day and he told me "nobody has broken a stock L67 rod yet, so why would you want L32 rods?" I said "because i have a lot of money in this thing, and I dont want to be the first".
We up here in michigan mostly use mustang dyno's with the occational dynojet or dynopack.
My friends turbo setup with a stock L67 block broke a rod.... but why does that make L32s any stronger? I think that the rods are just slightly weaker than stock pistons (and most likely significantly weaker than forged), a proper running motor is never going give any problems to stock pistons/rods.
I say , play with your pistons if you want fancy compression ratios, or a small amount of peice of mind, but never to solve a problem of a motor blowing up.
I still want to know how you outflow'ed your maf and your motor lived to tell about it...That happens up here and a new longblock is on order.
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12:21 AM
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
never saw your timeslips or videos. what was the ET?
Ive been to the track twice with my truck. Its a three hour drive and haven't been allowed to run. The track owner says it dosn't fit any santioning body so he wont let it run even after I put in a cage. He has said for me to not bring the fiero either so I street race.
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12:57 AM
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
you know, I searched for a half an hour, and all I saw was controversy over your "10 second" car. So being that im one of the reigning fastest members of this forum, and you dont have shlt to back up your sig with, I am using my power of 1/4 mile authority to ask you to delete your sig.
you know, I searched for a half an hour, and all I saw was controversy over your "10 second" car. So being that im one of the reigning fastest members of this forum, and you dont have shlt to back up your sig with, I am using my power of 1/4 mile authority to ask you to delete your sig.
Most anybody who has sprayed a longitudinal fiero with anything bigger then a 350 has run a ten and they all handle pretty good so whats to prove. My signature is informative and has been the same since Ive been on penocks. Regarding controversy, thats just bracketmaker the thread trasher (and followers) and he dosn't count. I really do hope you get your "ten" and so let this serve as incentive for which I will change it if you meet your goal.
------------------ the only fiero's running 10's have longitudinally mounted drivetrain, and the handling is pretty good.
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01:43 AM
PFF
System Bot
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
well shlt i can say Ive run in the 9's, and without a timeslip and video nobody is going to believe me. Why should anyone believe you. I dont care how much youve sprayed, nitrous is for pu$$ys that dont know how to make power. You claim you run 10's, prove it.
hey X when are you planning on hitting the strip? just curious because i'm going friday to see what my pretty much maxed out m90 setup will do. then saturday morning it will all come off for the turbo install i'm hoping to be on your butt by the end of the month. if i was any smarter i would have started for the 10's first. but i wish you the best man. and if you don't get it by the end of the month i'm coming for you
edit: i got my stock 2.8 in the 11's with a 300 direct port setup, but don't ask for proof
[This message has been edited by Billybo455 (edited 02-06-2008).]
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03:22 AM
fieroX Member
Posts: 5234 From: wichita, Ks Registered: Oct 2001
See the thing is, you said they measure whats important, but your accelerating a mass of weight that has no bearing on actual road acceleration. I used to dyno my car on a dynojet, and the pull would last like 4 seconds. Well, Im not in a top fuel dragster, so that has no bearing on what power you are actually putting to the pavement. Plus once the roller is in motion, it continues in motion until the brakes are applied. It takes constant power to keep a load dyno going. You can let off, and let the dynojet coast, and it will still show your putting out 400 hp or whatever. Im thinking about putting my car back on a dynojet to see what happens. I bet i can get close to 550.
I agree, the drum is too fricken light. And, you are making way too much power for that light of a drum, hense the 4 second pulls (iv'e seen the videos, yowch!). I don't agree that when you let off that it still says 400 hp due to the inertia. It takes exactly 0 horsepower to keep any mass moving. Only a change in drum velocity can make the dyno register numbers. Theoretically that is... The fact that the drum is going 500 rpm, means nothing, but if it goes from 0 to 600 rpm in 4 seconds, you made "X" horsepower, and I use that term loosely .
One thing I didn't like about the Dynojet is that, depending on what gear you dyno in, will have an effect on the numbers, which might have to do with the increase in tire friction loss (?) My Quad 4 gained 11 horsepower just from dynoing in 3rd vs 4th. I don't think a load dyno has that problem.
You say your charts are jagged. I would like to see them. I don't know if thats a good thing, Im just curious. I know quite well what a dynojet chart looks like.
well shlt i can say Ive run in the 9's, and without a timeslip and video nobody is going to believe me. Why should anyone believe you. I dont care how much youve sprayed, nitrous is for pu$$ys that dont know how to make power. You claim you run 10's, prove it.
I never said I was spraying or running tens, fact is, without timeslips I have never said anything. All I have ever given you or anybody else is generalized information to defend from all the longitudinal bashing that should make for an informative post. Tell me, am I spraying? I'll just go with whatever you say. The point is that the 10 second fiero's are sprayed longitudinal small blocks to which I hope you are able to set a new precedence in fiero history. I am not demeaning or ridiculing you, just pointing out that you are possibly going to cause me to change my signature.
[This message has been edited by big block fiero (edited 02-06-2008).]
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07:53 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
See the thing is, you said they measure whats important, but your accelerating a mass of weight that has no bearing on actual road acceleration.
That is what the difference is. A DynoJet and what the DynoPack appears to do, is eliminate the "actual road acceleration" so that you can get a more accurate reading of what the engine and drivetrain by themselves are doing. It goes along with the engine dyno. An engine dyno also measures a mass of weight the same way a DynoJet does. So if you were to run your engine on an engine dyno, then run it on a DynoJet, You would then be able to get a very good reading as to how much losses you have in the entire driveline and what they can produce together. Think of it more like getting a "rating" of the engine and the drivetrain together as well as a tool for tuning everything. I don't agree that they are "fake" numbers, They are just one particular piece of data.
The Mustang Dyno and what the Dyno Dynamics appears to do is give you a more accurate reading of how the vehicle will perform on the road with the varied loading. This allows you to make adjustments for improving how the vehicle will accerate down the road.
While all are "Dyno's" they do use different methods to gather certain data. The information from all is used as a tool. None of the particular Dyno's is the "end-all definative" measure of a vehicle. It is a compilation of ALL the data that provides a "big picture" of the vehicles parameters.
Think of it like this: Engine Dyno ~ What does the engine produce? DynoJet/DynoPack ~ What does the entire driveline produce? Mustang/Dyno Dynamics ~ What does the vehicle produce when traveling down the road?
Anyhow, That's my take on the information that you can get from all the dyno's.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 02-06-2008).]
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08:04 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Fierobsessed: One thing I didn't like about the Dynojet is that, depending on what gear you dyno in, will have an effect on the numbers, which might have to do with the increase in tire friction loss (?) My Quad 4 gained 11 horsepower just from dynoing in 3rd vs 4th. I don't think a load dyno has that problem.
That has to do with driveline rotating mass. Your flywheel is accelerating faster in 3rd than in 4th. You're going to see less power to the ground because there's more going into the flywheel. That has nothing to do with the dyno and will happen with ANY dyno measurement involving sampling a changing RPM.
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09:06 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
you know, I searched for a half an hour, and all I saw was controversy over your "10 second" car. So being that im one of the reigning fastest members of this forum, and you dont have shlt to back up your sig with, I am using my power of 1/4 mile authority to ask you to delete your sig.
Your power of 1/4 mile authority? Just when I thought you couldn't get more arrogant. I guess the Ryan Ego Storage Facility #32 in Topeka KS finally came online.
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09:53 AM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
well shlt i can say Ive run in the 9's, and without a timeslip and video nobody is going to believe me. Why should anyone believe you. I dont care how much youve sprayed, nitrous is for pu$$ys that dont know how to make power. You claim you run 10's, prove it.
Where did he claim to run 10s, oh arrogant one? He said the Fieros that have run 10s have used SBC, NOS and a longitudinal tranny. According to the Quarter Mile List maintained by NOS3800, that is correct.
The only 10 second times listed are:
NONFORUM MEMBERS: Al Rupertus: 10.99@133mph FB (355SBC w NOS, Olds Tornado Trans.)
FORUM MEMBERS: 10 SECOND CLUB cardealer: 10.98@127mph FB (SBC/NOS- longitudinal auto tranny)
i'm hoping to be on your butt by the end of the month. if i was any smarter i would have started for the 10's first. but i wish you the best man. and if you don't get it by the end of the month i'm coming for you 
