I replaced the lifter and push rods on my stock 2.8. I used a lube that they use on new camshafts etc. on the rods and lifters. Would this mess up my lash since it is a lubricant?
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12:25 PM
PFF
System Bot
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
If you install your rockers correctly the hydraulic lifters plunger should br centered in the lifter bore. Hydraulic lifters ,to my knowledge , do not require you to set any valve lash. None the less you did the right thing by lubing your new parts when installing them.
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12:51 PM
jetman Member
Posts: 7799 From: Sterling Heights Mich Registered: Dec 2002
If you install your rockers correctly the hydraulic lifters plunger should br centered in the lifter bore. Hydraulic lifters ,to my knowledge , do not require you to set any valve lash. None the less you did the right thing by lubing your new parts when installing them.
You're absolutely correct on the Duke, tighten down to torque specs and you're good to go. On the V-6, you do have to set the lash and some folks have had good success by centering the lifter bore on TDC for that cylinder by adjusting the rockers visually. Whatever method that centers the lifter bore is fine.
I went 1-1/2 turns after zero lash on my rocker nut at TDC of each cylinder for intake and exhaust. Started at TDC for #1 cylinder and adjusted lash for that cylinder, moved ballancer 120* (next mark on ballancer) and set lash for #2 cylinder, moved ballancer 120* (next mark on ballancer) and set lash for #3 cylinder and moved along from there to each successive cylinder.
Assembly lube was a good thing to use, might take some cranking for lifters to fully pump up with oil, that may be the reason that you were having some initial difficulties in getting your Fiero to run properly.
You're absolutely correct on the Duke, tighten down to torque specs and you're good to go. On the V-6, you do have to set the lash and some folks have had good success by centering the lifter bore on TDC for that cylinder by adjusting the rockers visually. Whatever method that centers the lifter bore is fine.
I went 1-1/2 turns after zero lash on my rocker nut at TDC of each cylinder for intake and exhaust. Started at TDC for #1 cylinder and adjusted lash for that cylinder, moved ballancer 120* (next mark on ballancer) and set lash for #2 cylinder, moved ballancer 120* (next mark on ballancer) and set lash for #3 cylinder and moved along from there to each successive cylinder.
Assembly lube was a good thing to use, might take some cranking for lifters to fully pump up with oil, that may be the reason that you were having some initial difficulties in getting your Fiero to run properly.
What is happening when you center the lifter bore? Not sure I understand this concept other than the push rod is in the center of the lifter.
The center of the lifter is called a poppet, it's a type of piston. It moves up and down inside the lifter. Oil pressure pushes the poppet up and takes the slack out of the pushrod and rocker arm. You want to adjust the rocker arm so that the poppet is about halfway down inside the lifter, that's centered.
The center of the lifter is called a poppet, it's a type of piston. It moves up and down inside the lifter. Oil pressure pushes the poppet up and takes the slack out of the pushrod and rocker arm. You want to adjust the rocker arm so that the poppet is about halfway down inside the lifter, that's centered.
JazzMan
Ah si!
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01:50 PM
jetman Member
Posts: 7799 From: Sterling Heights Mich Registered: Dec 2002
A hydraulic lifter has a spring loaded center thats where the push rod sets and it can move up to 6 or 8 milimeters down into the valve lifter body. You set the valve lash by tightening the rocker nut so that the pushrod forces the spring loaded center down about half of its travel or about 3 to 4 milimeters. You "set valve lash" on each cylinder at TDC for that cylinder.
When you don't have oil in the valve lifter there is much less resistance or pressure to push against the valve spring tension through your pushrod rocker and terefore your valves may not open as much as they will after the oil gets circulating.
Someone please double check me on that explaination.
A hydraulic lifter has a spring loaded center thats where the push rod sets and it can move up to 6 or 8 milimeters down into the valve lifter body. You set the valve lash by tightening the rocker nut so that the pushrod forces the spring loaded center down about half of its travel or about 3 to 4 milimeters. You "set valve lash" on each cylinder at TDC for that cylinder.
When you don't have oil in the valve lifter there is much less resistance or pressure to push against the valve spring tension through your pushrod rocker and terefore your valves may not open as much as they will after the oil gets circulating.
Someone please double check me on that explaination.
I wonder if there is a diagram of this out there somewhere.
Originally posted by NashvilleFiero: I wonder if there is a diagram of this out there somewhere.
I think CompCams or Crane Cams website has a graphic explanation of setting valve lash or lifter preload - or whatever they call it.
but - as mentioned - the key is getting the pushrod pushed 1/2 way down the lifter bore, when the lifter is setting on the base lobe on the cam. and, the reason for the middle is it gives the most room for error. the whole point of hydaulic lifters is to have MUCH room for error. 1/4 turn - 1 turn - 1&1/2 turn - whatever - as long as its "in the bore", and not bottomed out (when sitting on the base of the cam lobe) you'll be fine. obvously - haveing them all set the same way is ideal.
According to Crane, the lifter and engine should be primed with oil. How is this done? I think I recall AutoZone renting a primer tool or something.
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03:45 PM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
the easy way is to put them in a small tub of oil over night. if you are in a hurry, put them in that same tub, and push into each one a few time to "pump it up". it really is not necessary for most, tho. but, never hurts. I usually just pour a quart of oil into the lifter valley after doing the valve lash.
So lets just say for a moment that you underlashed a 2.8. What would that do?
From what I understand, the lifter won't stay pumped up at higher RPMs resulting poor performance. In my case, I wasn't close on several lifters when I re-installed my heads, neither was the so called mechanic, so I had to re-set the lash a second time. The car ran poorly, lots of ticker noise, yeah it wasn't right. The big pain about valve lash is that you have to remove plenhum and intake to get covers off to adjust. Thats the reason that everyone wanted you to double check all the ignition stuff first before having to go through the PITA of pulling valve covers again.
So lets just say for a moment that you underlashed a 2.8. What would that do?
From what I understand, the lifter won't stay pumped up at higher RPMs resulting poor performance. In my case, I wasn't close on several lifters when I re-installed my heads, neither was the so called mechanic, so I had to re-set the lash a second time. The car ran poorly, lots of ticker noise, yeah it wasn't right. The big pain about valve lash is that you have to remove plenhum and intake to get covers off to adjust. Thats the reason that everyone wanted you to double check all the ignition stuff first before having to go through the PITA of pulling valve covers again. [/QUOTE]
My Chilton's says this "Rotate the engine until the mark on the torsional damper lines up with the "0" mark on the timing tab, with the engine in the No. 1 firing position. This may be determined by placing fingers on the No. 1 rocker as the mark on the damper comes near the "0" mark...With the engine in the No. 1 firing position, the following valves can be adjusted: Exhaust 1,2,3 Intake 1,5,6...Crank the engine one revolution until the timing tab "0" and torsional mark are again i alignment. In this position the following valves may be adjusted: Exhaust 4,5,6 Intake 2, 3,4.
This seems different from some of the other recommendations I have heard on this forum.
I used the Chilton method originally and found that by rotating the cylinders to TDC in order worked better for me. Not sure if it is clearly superior, but it worked better for me.
In addition, if you have used parts in the mix, you don't want to load 1&1/2 turns. Make it more like 3/4 turn. If it is too tight, you will have an anemic engine, and if it is too light, you'll have valve clatter. Too tight can also lead to premature failures like worn lifters and cam.
When checking for "0" lash, Chilton also recommended spinning the push rod as I recollect. I do not do this. I found it to be too vague. I move the tip of the pushrod back and forth on the seat until it catches slightly. That is closer to "0" for me.
I used the Chilton method originally and found that by rotating the cylinders to TDC in order worked better for me. Not sure if it is clearly superior, but it worked better for me.
In addition, if you have used parts in the mix, you don't want to load 1&1/2 turns. Make it more like 3/4 turn. If it is too tight, you will have an anemic engine, and if it is too light, you'll have valve clatter. Too tight can also lead to premature failures like worn lifters and cam.
When checking for "0" lash, Chilton also recommended spinning the push rod as I recollect. I do not do this. I found it to be too vague. I move the tip of the pushrod back and forth on the seat until it catches slightly. That is closer to "0" for me.
Good luck on it.
Arn
I have new lifters and push rods. 3/4 turn ? I did my lash the way you did it.
This is for a stock engine. Any pitch difference in the rocker stud threads and nuts would change these numbers. Different ratio rockers would change these numbers slightly too although I don't think it would be the difference between working correctly and not.
If the intake is off and the lifters are empty of oil I adjust the nut to center the lifter. I measure the lifter travel and just crank it until the lifter is centered. I then pre-oil the engine to get some oil into the lifters before I start it. I pre-oil until oil comes out the push rods at the rocker. I'm just paranoid.
If the intake is on, or the lifters have ever had oil in them you can't use the above method because the oil will keep the lifter springs from compressing. You have no choice but use the turns method. Some lifters will drop a little but the rest of the movement is the valve being pushed down. That's just not going to work.
What I did discover is that 1.5 turns does get the lifters very, very close to centered for 1.5:1 rockers. I had the opportunity when I installed the 3.1L engine to play with the lifters (empty of oil) and found that the exact center came in somewhere between 1.3 and 1.6 turns from zero lash. Part of the variation is from how the rocker sits on the pivot ball.
Rather than rotate the push rod I lifted it up and down until there was no play and then turned the nut and measured how far the lifter dropped. I found I could spin some push rods with the lifter already starting to be pushed down so that wasn't a valid test of zero lash. If you really, really concentrate on the feel during the spin you would probably get close enough though to zero lash. Billions of people do this and everything is fine.
Bottom line, I found : With or without oil in the lifters, from zero lash, 1.5 turns will get the lifter as centered as you can get them without actually measuring the lifter drop. Other may have found otherwise.
I also make sure the engine starts as fast as possible. Even with lube, there is a ton of pressure on the valve train and I personally wanted oil flowing to keep the cam and lifters oiled as quickly as possible to start the break in. You want the engine to start and get it up to 1500-2000 to get lots of oil flowing over the cam lobes and lifters.
Just my experience.
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 05-24-2008).]
With new parts I would charge up the lifters with oil, put some assembly lube on the bottom for the cam, and turn 1&1/2 turns.
Arn
Hi Arn, How do you prime the oil? I understand the concept, but can you be more specific on how to prime with the priming tool and a drill? Where does the tool go? Is this hard to do?
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With new parts I would charge up the lifters with oil, put some assembly lube on the bottom for the cam, and turn 1&1/2 turns.
Arn
Hi Arn, How do you prime the oil? I understand the concept, but can you be more specific on how to prime with the priming tool and a drill? Where does the tool go? Is this hard to do?
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The oil pump is driven by a hex shaft that plugs into the bottom of the distributor. Remove the distributor and find the socket that fits the hex shaft. Tape the socket to extension and the extension to the drill (because if it falls off in there you will hate yourself).
Look at the opening where the distributor goes in and you will see a hole that goes into the block. Get ready to block that hole with your finger because oil will pour out of it.
Connect the drill to rotate CW, put the socket on the hex shaft and fire up the drill. If you don't feel any resistance the shaft isn't seated in the pump below. Oil is pretty thick and will load the drill noticeably.
Once you see oil coming out the hole, use your finger to block it to force oil up to the top of the engine. If the valve covers are off, watch for oil coming out the push rods. If you have tons of lube in the engine it might not come out all of the push rods. The flow out the push rods is not huge but once you have oil coming out I run the drill for 2-3 minutes. You are pre-lubed and primed.
TK
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 05-24-2008).]
Ok, I primed the crap out of it. Now it sounds like there is zip compression when I turn it over. I am wondering if the it is overlashed now. I lashed it initially without priming the lifters. I followed the Chilton method, but as I look at the other methods, I wonder if I did it wrong. Gee, there is nothing I love more than taking that intake off again. I'm going to do the 120 degree method.
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I used the Chilton method originally and found that by rotating the cylinders to TDC in order worked better for me. Not sure if it is clearly superior, but it worked better for me.
In addition, if you have used parts in the mix, you don't want to load 1&1/2 turns. Make it more like 3/4 turn. If it is too tight, you will have an anemic engine, and if it is too light, you'll have valve clatter. Too tight can also lead to premature failures like worn lifters and cam.
When checking for "0" lash, Chilton also recommended spinning the push rod as I recollect. I do not do this. I found it to be too vague. I move the tip of the pushrod back and forth on the seat until it catches slightly. That is closer to "0" for me.
Good luck on it. So if I am hearing you correctly, you don't spin or twist the lifter, but rather move the lifter on the seat until it just catches?
I used the Chilton method originally and found that by rotating the cylinders to TDC in order worked better for me. Not sure if it is clearly superior, but it worked better for me.
In addition, if you have used parts in the mix, you don't want to load 1&1/2 turns. Make it more like 3/4 turn. If it is too tight, you will have an anemic engine, and if it is too light, you'll have valve clatter. Too tight can also lead to premature failures like worn lifters and cam.
When checking for "0" lash, Chilton also recommended spinning the push rod as I recollect. I do not do this. I found it to be too vague. I move the tip of the pushrod back and forth on the seat until it catches slightly. That is closer to "0" for me.
Good luck on it.
Arn
So if I am hearing you correctly, you don't spin or twist the lifter, but rather move the lifter on the seat until it just catches?
You don't do anything to the lifter. The pushrod you pull up against the rocker arm to take the slop out of it, then while tightening the nut you click the bottom of the pushrod back and forth in the seat in the top of the lifter. There should be a gap so that the pushrod moves through free air between tapping each side of the seat in the top of the lifter. As the nut tightens the amount the pushrod will move will decrease. When it stops clicking you've reached zero lash. Don't push down on the pushrod while doing this.
JazzMan
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01:43 PM
PFF
System Bot
max1 Member
Posts: 213 From: Evans City PA Registered: May 2002
I am getting ready to go down to My garage and do the same thing You did...replace lifters and pushrods. Because I have My intakes off at the moment, I'm gonna lash My valves while I can still see the lifters and I'm gonna use the wiggle/shake method. I will wiggle/shake bottom of pushrod back and forth until it stays in the lifter seat, when it doesn't wanna wiggle anymore with slight pressure I'm gonna consider it at zero lash...It won't be real tight but just touching the lifter seat
edit: Jazzman replied while I was typing....His answer is better, He explained it better
[This message has been edited by max1 (edited 06-06-2008).]
You don't do anything to the lifter. The pushrod you pull up against the rocker arm to take the slop out of it, then while tightening the nut you click the bottom of the pushrod back and forth in the seat in the top of the lifter. There should be a gap so that the pushrod moves through free air between tapping each side of the seat in the top of the lifter. As the nut tightens the amount the pushrod will move will decrease. When it stops clicking you've reached zero lash. Don't push down on the pushrod while doing this.
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