Prothane's got me confused. They gave me "thrust washers" for the front lower A-arm. I see no way in which these will fit in with the bushings. Did they give them by mistake? The bushings fit in fine, but the thrust washers... I'm at a loss.

Also, can someone verify my flange positioning. The upper arm has the flanges on the outsides of the arm while the lower arm has the flanges towards the back of the car.

I hope the clarifies that question:
upper


lower


-Michael

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"A guy know's he's in love when he loses interest in his car for a few days." -Tim Allen

"Those "rings" prevent the control arm from "sliding" on the bushing. In the picture above you dont have them installed, now if you were strong enough you could slide that control arm left to right, not a good thing. That is why those rings need to be used, to prevent that movement of the arm. They do NOT need to be trimmed, they fit this way to keep pressure on the control arm to keep it in place. Everything will fit, and it will be a tight fit, but it has to be this way. I use a 4lb hammer to get the arms in and the holes aligned, just take your time, its not that difficult with the rings."

That was a reply that I posted in this thread, which basically asks the same question.

Great, thanks.

EDIT: Are the thrust washers/caps supposed to clip onto the arm before it's installed or just snugly fit and be held in place by pressure and the bolt?

[This message has been edited by Fierology (edited 01-15-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Fierology: just snugly fit and be held in place by pressure

I just went and took another look then took another pic.



How would I ever be able to fit that in? I don't see why I'd want to. It would seem that I HAVE to trim it. Clearly you've been here a lot longer than me so it would seem you'd know more. I look the the wiser and more experienced, but, as you can see in the pic, the bushing is lined up to the left of the bracket and overlaping the other side in around a 1/4 inch! could it be my parts aren't matching or just that Prothane flubbed.

-Michael

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"A guy know's he's in love when he loses interest in his car for a few days." -Tim Allen

How do they fit in the cross-member?

[This message has been edited by AutoTech (edited 01-15-2008).]

I just finished mine on a 84-87 and had rings for the lower only. no ring on the upper.

They fit in the crossmember the same as in the bracket that the picture shows. It's easier to show what I mean w/ the picture I posted than w/ the crossmember. I also only have rings on the bottom, which makes sense becasue the top has spacing washers.

-Michael

Well, the problem you pictured is actually quite common. Just knock the flange over so that the bushing can get slightly started, then it will need to be put in the rest of the way with a 4lb hammer. Same with the crossmember, just get it started, and pound it in.

Ive done poly to 6-7 Fieros, always used the washers, and never had any real problems. Like I said, having to bend the flange is common, the trick is the 4lb hammer.

Okay. I'll trust you and try it out. You can probably sense my doubts, but I will try it. I figure w/ you doing it 6 or 7 times you know what you're talking about! Thanks.

-Michael

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"A guy know's he's in love when he loses interest in his car for a few days." -Tim Allen

Tell ya what, I'll just stop by and knock em in for ya, where you at?

Ooh, I don't think you'll wanna travel all the way to Maryland. I'm sure I can do it, and I'll try what you said. Thank you very much.

-Michael

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"A guy know's he's in love when he loses interest in his car for a few days." -Tim Allen

Check out my restoration! Comment if you can.

im in another thread
I forgot to put them on now i have to tear everything out

Uhg, that's no fun. I'm talking w/ FieroStore and Prothane and getting to the bottom of why it's not working properly. Because, w/ all due resp. to Autotech, the current system is logically flawed. I'll post what I find out.

-Michael

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"A guy know's he's in love when he loses interest in his car for a few days." -Tim Allen

Check out my restoration! Comment if you can.

THE ISSUE IS RESOLVED

So, good news and bad news. I've come to what seems the bottom of the issue, but the kit is simply wrong. I talked to the Fiero Store. The guy just said: "What I do is cut em" [paraph.] Next I talked to Prothane and this answer surprised me the most. He said: "I'm at a loss." He'd Never heard of this before; he'd never gotten any previous complaints. [If you're wondering, my part #'s match up, and my measurements match to The Fiero Store's pieces.] Clearly other forum members are giving all their solutions to the problem, but appatently no one ever ended up calling Prothane personally.

In the end: Prothane is ignorant and needs to fix their kit. Then... all us Fiero owners trying to install Polys will be a bit happier.

I'm gonna ask Prothane to fix their kit, and I'm going to try to get The Fiero Store to help me out. The bushings aren't cheap so they should make them right. For my case I'm cutting my Thrust Washers to work properly.

Sorry AutoTech, I mean the most respect and I thank you for your help. I just disagree w/ your idea.

-Michael

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"A guy know's he's in love when he loses interest in his car for a few days." -Tim Allen

Check out my restoration! Comment if you can.

how do i cut them?
i put everything in without them so i gotta tear it out of the car to do it

[This message has been edited by antinull.com (edited 01-26-2008).]

Now why does the poly need a thrust washer?
The original rubber has no thrust washer. The metal insert takes the load when tightening the bolt.
Has anyone else had this problem?

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 01-26-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Hudini: Now why does the poly need a thrust washer? The original rubber has no thrust washer. The metal insert takes the load when tightening the bolt. Has anyone else had this problem?

Excellent question!
Maybe Prothane could answer that one. What exactly was their purpose for supplying them? I haven't got around to installing mine yet, but they do seem like extra parts to me.

Kevin

Edit to add................ there are no such parts for the rear lower control arms, which I do have mocked up in my extra cradle. Once both bushings are installed, and the control arm in place, the control arm will not move side to side. Like I wondered, what are the others for the front, supposed to do?

[This message has been edited by Lambo nut (edited 01-26-2008).]

Read my reply in the thread I linked above. Should explain it fairly well.

know what
im not going to put mine in
and if i have problems
I will report it
BTW: my bushings are in there tight and dont move the metal is pressed to either side of the inner metal sleeve
so yeah.... i think that the poly isnt going to do more then metal

[This message has been edited by antinull.com (edited 01-26-2008).]

I'm in the middle of doing this too and I'm going to leave mine out. I installed them on the one side I have done but plan on taking the lower arm off again to remove them. They squeak like crazy in there especially after you torque down the control arm to chassis bolts. As far as I can figure all the thrust would be to the rear anyway where the large flange would of the bushing would take it.

Dave
here is a real test
Leave one side on and one side off ^_^
then we can see if it drives different

OK, I just went outside, and looked things over. Looks like the front, lower control arm rubber bushings, both come in from the rear, meaning thay both have the larger flange to the rear of the car, and the smaller end towards the front. I can see, if the poly is installed this way, the lower arm could slide back and forth.The rubber in the shell, must be bonded good enough, to prevent movement. Now, I don't have a front end apart, so if anyone does, is there anything keeping the poly bushings from being installed with the large ends away from each other. Meaning the rear comes in from the rear, but the front, installed from the front. If so, they would be just like the rear lower bushings, and would not be able to go anywhere, and the rings do not look like they would be needed. I do agree, after looking at my '84, there is no way the rings will go in, as described in the thread. The cross member and rear flange, would have to be seperated 1/4 inch , if not more. Plus, even if you could get them in there, are you sure you are getting the bolt tight enough, that you are against the middle insert, and not just putting pressure on the outer face of the ring only, basically smashing it between the flange, and control arm surface, leaving the insert, slightly away from the flange. I can't see that as being a good thing.

Kevin

okay i get it now i think the ARM could slide off the poly some how?
i see why its needed but the cup aspect to the washer makes no sence and i will prob cut it off now and put them on lol

quote Originally posted by antinull.com: i see why its needed but the cup aspect to the washer makes no sence and i will prob cut it off now and put them on lol

Or hopefully, if Fierology has not put his all back together yet, he might ba able to check what I was asking about the bushings possibly going in opposite from each other. Hope that makes sence. Or anyone else with a front end apart for that matter.

Fierology, got your ears on?

Kevin

quote Originally posted by antinull.com: Dave here is a real test Leave one side on and one side off ^_^ then we can see if it drives different

Too late I already took em out. I don't think I would be able to stand all the squeaking anyway. Before I removed them they would squawk and squeak like crazy when I moved the lower arm up and down. I did talk to a buddy that installed these and he's been driving without the thrust part for 3 years with no issues. Screw'em

Dave

[This message has been edited by Dave E Bouy (edited 01-27-2008).]

changing my mind again just to avoid tearing the suspension i just put in out.... ill save them and if it ever shifts ill throw em in

the problem that Autotech is trying to get you to understand is not that the metal bushing will move, it can't as it is clamped by the bolt to the frame flanges. the problem is that the poly is not bonded to the sleeve, and the sleeve can then shift on the poly foward and back. this will cause a change in the alignment as it loads up. not good.
I had no problem pushing the arms in on the 88, no real problem with that. It looks like your setup is a little tighter, so I have to wonder if you got the right set, it must be tight, so just get er done! make sure you lube the @#$#@ outta all the poly surfaces, that will also help.with out the lube they can be a royal b to get in.

ok well im going to go out to work on the car today
so i will decide then

Yes! This is something that needs to be forced in people! Get a BFH and get it in there, it will go. You might have to use a wedge of some sort to get it started, but by god people, I would hope you could think for yourselves here.

Get 'er done!

eh well im pretty inexperenced when it comes to cars (this is my learning platform) I mostly work on it just to learn
ok i got them on
took a 2x4 a mallet and a jack to line them up
i guess the trick is to get the front one in first
the rear bracket on mine is a bit spread from pulling and cutting the old bolts lol so it made it easier
my only concern is that the rear one is slightly buckled because its larger then the bracket and some of the polyy got scraped off just from moving it

[This message has been edited by antinull.com (edited 01-28-2008).]

quote Originally posted by antinull.com: ok i got them on

I don't suppose you tried to see, if the front bushing would go in from the front by chance?

quote Originally posted by AutoTech: Yes! This is something that needs to be forced in people! Get a BFH and get it in there, it will go. You might have to use a wedge of some sort to get it started, but by god people, I would hope you could think for yourselves here. Get 'er done!

I've put poly in a few other cars, besides a Fiero, and in none of the installs, did I have to force anything. I'm glad to see, you think we are idiots. I'm thinking, your BFH, is a pretty low tech method to install something, that no ones seems to have instruction for. For all we know, the instructions might read, If you have this, use this, if you have this, discard these. Who even knows for sure, if these rings get used in the Fiero at all? Maybe the instructions read, on the lower control arm, install both the bushings from the outside, (as the are in many other vehicles, and other areas of the Fiero) Just because you beat the hell out of them, and they went in there, does not mean it is right.

Kevin

i had tried to put the cups in the other way and it didnt fit

quote Originally posted by antinull.com: i had tried to put the cups in the other way and it didnt fit

I didn't mean the cups, but the whole bushing itself.
As in, install the rear bushing in from the rear, and the front, in from the front, like the upper control arm bushings go in, or the rear lower arms for that matter.

Kevin

im taking about the metal cup and bushing wouldnt fit the holes are different sizes

OK I see now. I took a closer look at the front ones I have, that are not installed, and there are tapered, for lack of a better term, or more like stepped, so the one end, is slightly smaller diameter then the other. I see how they could only go in one way. I also just noticed, for the first time, thet the bushings have numbers cast into them. The upper bushing has 64258, the lower, 64259, and the washer ring, 64260, which would lead one to believe they do all go together. Would be more helpfull, if instructions were provided with these, as they are a diferent set up then stock.

Looks like BFH is the way to go, but still.............

Kevin

I always just trimmed those thrust washers to fit..

Sorry guys! School just started up again and I got had lots of work to get on top of. I thought it was starting a week later!

The Fiero Store told me that years ago the kits never came w/ thrust washers. As the cars got older, he said, some of the original sleeves became thinner due to rust. Because of this extra slack in the bushings and the bushings flanges both being to the rear of the arm some arms would tend to slide forward. To conpensate for the problem Prothane added a piece, the Infamous Thrust Washer. In my opinion it's poorly designed, not a thrust washer to begin w/. I presume that it was not designed for the Fiero kit but merely pulled from the stock of pieces and added because it kind-of fit. Prothane, according the guy I talked to, has gotten any complaints about the Fiero bushing kit so they have never fixed the problem. I'm planning to mount my arms on Saturday. On the rear bushing the bevel is facing inward while on the front bushing (x-member) it's facing outward (as shown in the diagram from Prothane). I'll post pics to illustrate this later.

Deducing from what the Fiero Store said, if you have new or like-new bushing sleeves you don't need the Thrust Washers.

-Michael

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"A guy know's he's in love when he loses interest in his car for a few days." -Tim Allen

Check out my restoration! Comment if you can.