Now that my 88 Formula V6 is out of storage and road-legal again I thought I was good for a few months of trouble free motoring. Wrong!

The car now has a cranking/starting problem. This is something totally new. Even when in storage, when I did connect up a charged battery it used to start smoothly on the first turn of the key.

The symptoms now are that on first - cold - start, the starter turns over the engine, it cranks, almost catches, but doesn't "fire up". On the first two or three occasions, when starting seemed difficult, flooring the throttle while cranking seemed to help and eventually it caught and started running BUT (and is this a clue?) the idle was very lumpy and the tach needle was twitching wildly and erratically between 1000 and about 3000. Giving it more throttle seemed to smooth things out and the revs evened out. After a minute or so, everything settled into normal pattern - idling at about 1100 revs while still cold and in P or N, dropping to 950 in D. When warm, idle is about 950-1000. And when the engine has run for a while and is warm, re-starting is no problem.

Now today (weather cold and a bit damp) it won't fire up at all. I hear the fuel pump noise. The battery still cranks the starter, the engine turns and turns, seems to gasp and almost catch, but won't fire. Flooring the throttle gets it closer, but not quite there. I begin to worry that (as this isn't normal procedure) maybe I'm risking flooding the engine with too much fuel.

So I've sprayed the engine bay with WD40 damp-start stuff on the grounds that this won't hurt, and am now charging up the battery (cos it is a bit old and maybe getting tired) while thinking about what else to check.

I've checked for fault codes by jumpering the ALDL connections. Nothing abnormal at all - I just get straight "12s". No work has been done on the fuel/ignition/emissions and none of that stuff has been disturbed. The recent work has been brakes, new muffler in place of the cat, repair to leaking forward manifold, and a new alternator as the old one simply ceased to function (I had it checked, and it had failed completely).

I can't throw parts at the problem (finding any spares for the Fiero over here in UK is a challenge) and I have no test equipment, gauges or meters and certainly no WinALDL capability - I don't think I would understand the readout figures/graphs anyway!

Can anyone suggest what these symptoms indicate, and what I ought to look at next and in what order?

- Is the battery perhaps fading, and not giving enough power to turn the starter motor and deliver a decent spark? (Even getting a new battery is not easy: side-mount screw-in terminals are special order over here, and I really don't want to get a new battery if that isn't the problem).

- should I change the plugs? (though running it over the last couple of months after 3 years in storage should surely have cleaned up and burned off any gunk and deposits).

- is it a fuel supply problem? Can't be stale fuel or water in the tank, as it's had several refills of fresh gas and driven a hundred miles or so without any stumbling.

- Is the problem with one or more of the sensors and the electronics (wouldn't that produce a code?).

What else do I need to consider? It really seems bizarre that when the car was in storage and effectively unused, it started flawlessly - and now that I want to give it some exercise, it is playing up!

br1anstorm

I'd start off with a fuel pressure test and leak down test to see if you have injectors sticking and leaking.
If you have to floor it to get it started that is the Flood clear mode for the ecm. Does the exhaust smell rich when you got it to run?

my suggestion is to do the basics....check for spark....pop a pug wire off and ground it to something while cranking....if you get a blue spark you are good...then chekc fuel supply...you should have a schrader valve on the fuel rail to put a pressure gauge on.....when you do this turn the key and just leave it in the on position. and watch the gauge maybe 5 minutes to see if you initially have pressure and if it drops you have a leaky injector somewhere if you have fuel and spark then go from there

Um, er - okay, I can check for spark easily enough, I guess.

But I don't have a fuel pressure gauge, nor easy access to anyone else who might have one...

And what exactly is a leak-down test? Sorry to appear so dumb, but my car-maintenance efforts tend to be based on observation and (I hope) a bit of common sense rather than any technical training!

br1anstorm

I'd check some parts stores and see if they might have a pressure gauge for a American car. Most stores here have loaners. Might be a standard fitting or might not. It's just like a R12 refrigerant fitting.

As he said above. What you do it put the gauge on and cycle the key(don't have to start the engine) so the fuel pump pressurizes the fuel system. You should see around 40PSI. Then you just watch it for 10 min. to see what it does. A good system should hold the pressure for quite a while. If it slowly bleeds down in 10-20 min. then your leaking a little. The faster the worse it is.
What can leak? Injectors, fuel pressure regulator, fuel pump check valve, split hose or pulsator inside the tank.

See if you can do the test first and then post back with the pressure and time results and we'll help from there.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 11-05-2008).]

Thanks, Dodgerunner... it's now night-time here, so I'll go hunting for a gauge tomorrow or at the weekend. Will post again after I've found something to do the test with.

br1anstorm

An update - for Dodgerunner and other readers. Not sure if I'm reporting progress or not!

I charged up the battery overnight just to be very sure it was pushing out good power, and browsed a lot of previous PFF threads. The more I read, the more complicated and numerous the possible problems and solutions!

So this morning I tried to start it - just to check that the tach needle moved when I cranked (cos I had read that this was a good sign that ignition module etc was OK). Yes, the needle moved. But engine wouldn't fire.

- I pulled all the connectors I could see (especially distributor, ignition module, etc), gave them squirt of Electrolube and reconnected them.

- I tipped more gas into the tank (gauge showed half full, but I thought I'd just fill it up a bit more just in case the needle had stuck!)

- I pulled a plug lead, and checked for spark when I cranked. Seemed healthy, though hard to be sure of the colour in the daylight

- then I did something slightly unwise. As I have no fuel pressure gauge, with the ignition on I simply pushed the pin on the Schrader valve in to see what would happen... not knowing whether I'd get a six-foot high gushing jet fountain of fuel or a miserable two-second dribble. Well, I'm here to tell you that I got the latter! So I still have no idea what fuel pressure I have, but I reckon it probably wasn't 40-plus psi. Does a 2 second "prime" of the fuel pump when you turn the ignition on really generate and sustain high pressure for 10-15 minutes?

I was going to try and energise the fuel pump by putting battery power to the relay and/or swop the aircon and fuel pump relays, just to see what might happen. But it was hard to get at at the relays and connections, and I had to get ready for work...

Now here's the interesting point. I decided to have one more try at starting before leaving for work (in my Jeep!). Cranked long and hard (maybe 10-15 seconds), floored the throttle - and it eventually caught, fired, and ran like a demented dervish. Tach needle jumping crazily around from 1000 to 4000 with the throttle hard down, revving very rough, and once a backfire when I lifted off a bit. Then, after about 30 secs of such behaviour, it all calmed down, I eased off the throttle, the engine settled into running smoothly, and it would then rev quite happily up to 4000 and down to idle at about 1100 without any problem. I let it warm up. It was as if nothing was wrong. Engaging D or R brought the idle revs down to around 900 (very slight lumpiness, needle twitching up to 1000 and down). Once it was warm, idle in P or N then settled at about 900. And it coped with only a slight drop when the a/c compressor kicked in. All seemed totally normal.

Then I had to leave... so just had to switch off.

So I'm actually not much wiser. Got back late, so I haven't yet tried to start it up again. I confess I'm still concerned that without positive identification of the problem I don't know why, whether, or when, it might happen again. Was it simply damp affecting the electronics? A temporary blockage or bit of gunk in the fuel supply? Or something else that might crop up to haunt me again tomorrow, next week or next month?

I guess it still makes sense to check the fuel pressure when I do find a gauge. But meanwhile if anyone has thoughts or reactions to the little episode described above, I'd be fascinated to hear them.

br1anstorm

Well when you hold the throttle wide open that is the flood clear mode of the ecm and it cuts the injector pulses back so the gas can clear.
Sounds like you might have a lot of fuel laying in the engine which leads back to doing a leak down test with a gauge.
BTY the easy way to run the fuel pump is to jump +12 to the G pin of the aldl connector which connects directly to the pump.


In the meantime, usually if you have good pressure and press the valve the gas should basicaly shoot up and hit the hood. So if you cycle the key and try it and only get a little squirt you may very well be leaking down somewhere.

Dodgerunner , maybe his cold start injector not working? Once it fires up and warms up some she is about right he says. I have no experience with a 2.8, except the TBI one in my S-10.
Joe

Possible! some starting fluid could be used to see if that made a difference on faster starting when cold, however the fact that flooring it seemed to help would seem to indicate the oppisite MIGHT be true.

That was why i asked when it does start does it smell like it's running rich.

Humm, well I thought i asked that, must have been a different post. Well I'm asking now...

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 11-06-2008).]

Thanks, Dodgerunner and Joe. Let the detective work continue...

I still haven't laid hands on a fuel pressure gauge (I'm on the trail...). But meanwhile, I tried to start the car this morning and guess what - it fired first time, after barely 3 secs, ran as smooth as butter. Didn't need to floor the throttle at all.

I guess that doesn't mean there's nothing wrong. Seems to my inexpert logic that there could well be a fuel pressure/leak problem.

The previous big problem about starting - in my original post - occurred after the car had sat unused for 2-3 days. So does that suggest I have a gradual slow leak into the cylinders? Overnight, not enough to flood and prevent starting, but after several days, starting becomes difficult because much more fuel has accumulated in the cylinders (how and from where, if all is switched off?).

Separate question about getting a big jet of gas from the Schrader valve. Dodgerunner, you mentioned "cycling" the key. Is it the case that you'd have to switch on and off several/many times to get pressure of 40 plus psi (ie numerous 2-sec bursts of the pump?). I got a little dribble, but I had only switched the key on and off maybe a couple of times max. If I'd cycled the key a lot more, would the gas have shot out?

The only other point I can mention is that no, when it does start it doesn't smell particularly strongly of gas (though its hard to judge what might be normal - I think there's always a slight whiff of fuel if you stand behind any car when it starts...). But I can say I saw no sign of liquid unburnt fuel coming out of the exhausts, nor any colour of smoke. If it was very rich, surely I'd see one or both of these?

br1anstorm

quote Originally posted by br1anstorm: Separate question about getting a big jet of gas from the Schrader valve. Dodgerunner, you mentioned "cycling" the key. Is it the case that you'd have to switch on and off several/many times to get pressure of 40 plus psi (ie numerous 2-sec bursts of the pump?). I got a little dribble, but I had only switched the key on and off maybe a couple of times max. If I'd cycled the key a lot more, would the gas have shot out? The only other point I can mention is that no, when it does start it doesn't smell particularly strongly of gas (though its hard to judge what might be normal - I think there's always a slight whiff of fuel if you stand behind any car when it starts...). But I can say I saw no sign of liquid unburnt fuel coming out of the exhausts, nor any colour of smoke. If it was very rich, surely I'd see one or both of these? br1anstorm

A normal system will pressurize in one cycle if the car was driven the day before. If it had leaked down all the way maybe not but two cycles should be enough.

If it was really rich yes would think you would see some black smoke or really smell it..

Have you tried driving the car yet?

Further update...

When the car started cleanly and normally yesterday morning, I did a quick 5 mile trip down the road and back. Engine seemed absolutely fine - no smoke, no stuttering, smooth idle when stationary. I had disconnected the TCC solenoid some weeks ago as it wasn't unlocking (I'm waiting for the replacement parts to arrive) - so the revs are a bit higher than normal at road-speeds above 40/50mph. But it seems to be running OK.

This morning I tried again. Perfect first time start! Another quick trip: all seems OK.

So now I'm left wondering - was the cranking problem I had a one-off? Or is there possibly a slow leak-down of fuel, such that overnight it doesn't flood the cylinders, but after 3 or 4 days there's too much fuel lying there to allow it to start?

I still haven't got hold of a fuel pressure tester. I've seen the Harbor Freight website which offers a test gauge for $12.99, so I know what to look for. But they seem as rare as hen's teeth over here - no autostore has one for sale or loan, and all I can find online from UK suppliers is a test kit costing over £300 pounds sterling!

I'm away for a few days next week, so I'll let the car sit and see what happens when I try to start it on my return. Watch this space!

br1anstorm

If it was a flooding or lean problem from sticking inj(s) it may have just worked itself out from being driven after setting for a while.

br1anstrom, check your pm.

I read the initial post, but didn't read all, so please forgive if I repeat anything anyone's suggested. My brother's car has been giving him the same symptoms. Very long multilple attempts to start. When it would finally start, it might run backwards, blowing smoke out the intake on the side the car, or it might catch and sputter, rrunning on a few cylinders, adding one at a time until it ran smoothly. Sometimes holding it to the floor would seem to make it start quicker, sometimes it didn't help. We changed the plugs, the plug wires, the module, the distributor cap, and the coolant temperature sensor and still had the same problem. Once it was running, starting down the street, it would pop and cough and backfire, but once it was warm, it would fire right up without problems.

This morning, we pulled a plug wire, inserted a plug and tried to start it. We had fire, but it was yellow. We quickly hooked in another ignition coil, and it fired off immediately. To test it, we hooked the old coil back, and it was again a no-start. Tried the replacement coil again with immediate start. Seems the coil was breaking down when it was cold, but was making full connection after it had warmed up.

quote Originally posted by montegut: br1anstrom, check your pm.

Thanks - have just seen, and replied.

Cheers

br1anstorm

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner: If it was a flooding or lean problem from sticking inj(s) it may have just worked itself out from being driven after setting for a while.

Looks like you were right, Dodgerunner. As mentioned in my last post, I left the car sitting for 5 days while I was away. I've just got back. Turned the key, and she fired up first time and ran sweetly as normal! I have since been out on two short trips, with no problems.

So I'm still in the dark as to what caused the problem which led me to begin this thread. But it does seem as if the engine somehow got flooded, and repeated starting efforts (without flooring the throttle) may have made it worse - until finally a couple of days later with the pedal hard down it did eventually fire up and clear itself out.

Anyhow I'm counting my blessings, very relieved that I don't have to replace injectors or other bits, and I'm hoping the problem won't reappear. Meanwhile thanks to all who offered advice. This forum is brilliant, and I hope anyone else reading this thread might find it useful, or perhaps even reassuring: not every problem turns out to be an expensive disaster!

Hey, Brian. Have the parts arrived yet?

Might be worth your while to run some Injector cleaner through a couple tanks.
Of course if it's running good you don't want to cause other problems if cleaner knocks something else loose...

oops - double post...

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 11-19-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Saxman: Hey, Brian. Have the parts arrived yet?

Yay! Found the package in the hallway when I got back home from my London trip. Have emailed you...

But for the public record, other forum readers ought to know that you kindly helped out by sending over to me in UK a replacement TCC solenoid and related parts which were unavailable here. And another PFF forum member is bringing over a fuel pressure gauge when he visits. So I'm going to quote here on the forum some of what I said in my email:

"...it's thanks to you that I can even think about getting this [solenoid replacement] done. I'll let you know when I've actually done the job.
The really heartwarming thing is to have such help and kindness from fellow Fiero owners. I can't remember if I mentioned that I have acquired three other cars over the years (Jeep Cherokee, Mercedes 560 SEC, and Matra Murena) all of which are getting older too and need TLC. There are clubs and forums for each of them - but I have to say that the Fiero community is 'way ahead of them all when it comes to offering support, advice and practical help."

What more can I say? There really is something special about PFF and the Fiero community!

br1anstorm

quote Originally posted by br1anstorm: I owe you all beers

Glad the parts arrives safely. Yeah - wrapping that big gasket around a tube sure saved on shipping!

I may need you to find some Range Rover signal lights to replace some on my Fino. More to come.

I'll take you up on a nice Irish-grown Guinness next time I am over there. Probably Christmas 2009. Cheers!