Fierostore
84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING
This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros.
Part #69785
Price:$14.95
CLICK HERE
These inserts are pressed into the rear of the (GM 2.5 )crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission.

INSTALL A PILOT BUSHING it will be one less thing you will have to worry about.

My 88 2.5 CAME WITH ONE FROM THE FACTORY

The engineers had these bushings installed in 2.5 engines for a reason... 15 dollars or not 15 dollars... If I spent the money on a simple bushing a year ago I would not even bother posting this but since there is a doubt I AM posting this... you decide what is more important.

I listened to the following "experts" and DID NOT install the part.

This was an 88 with a 5 speed. When I replaced the engine I replace the flywheel, clutch, pressure plate and the T/O bearing... all are now trashed along with the drive axle. What I left out was the least expensive part of all a stupid little bushing.

15 bucks spent about a year ago COULD HAVE avoided the 500.00 dollars I will have to spend on replacing all the stuff that was broken.

AGAIN.... You decide for yourselves.


This is why "I feel" it is a good idea to install a pilot bushing. The original engine had one, my reman didn't.
I could not remove the old one but after conferring with a few people on here I decided to leave it out... BIG MISTAKE. With over 200k in the trans I should have known better than to leave it out.. Granted I may have missed the 3rd gear gate and hit first by mistake...but had the pilot bearing been in place this carnage would have been avoided. INSTALL IT!!! Nuff said. I have NEVER had a manual transmission fail in any of my cars and I have had many manual transmission equipped cars... and I always down shift... AGAIN never had a problem.
THIS @ 14.95

OR this @ 500+







http://www.automotix.net/au...pair_guide-1911.html


Crankshaft Pilot Bushing Update On
1979-93 GM 2.5L Engines

The AERA Technical Committee offers the following information regarding an update on crankshaft pilot bushings for 1977-93 GM 2.5L engines. Previously, AERA published Technical Bulletin TB 477R. The information in this bulletin
is to be used in addition to that bulletin. GM has used six unique crankshaft pilot bushing inserts for their different 2.5L engine applications.

These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and
diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use:

Model
Year Drive Model Part # View

1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D
1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E
1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A
1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B
1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C
1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C
1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B
1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A
1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C
1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C
1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B
1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B
1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827
1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E
1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605
1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A

It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.

The AERA Technical Committee

88 P Engine Asm. - 2.5 L4 (LR8/2.5R)

Spacer, Flywheel to Crankshaft - 10005655
Insert, Cr/Shf (W / M.T.) - 10009785
Insert, Cr/Shf (W / A.T.) - 10018699

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]

Kaboom!

Man that sucks big time. Hope it goes back together without problems......

Did it break all the flywheel bolts off? Hope the crank is ok! What kinda HP you runnin in that Duke - j/k....

Pat

[This message has been edited by katatak (edited 11-16-2008).]

quote Originally posted by katatak: Kaboom! Man that sucks big time. Hope it goes back together without problems...... Did it break all the flywheel bolts off? Hope the crank is ok! Pat

I'm surprised you didn hear it from your place.
Yes it did... all 6 and one on the PP side where the clutch center wedged itself under it forcing the bolt head to pop off.

The crank is fine but I need lots of Duct tape, CA glue and maybe some Elmers for the really tough stuff.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-16-2008).]

WOW you blew the gearbox right out!!. Last time I checked the Fiero store had new tranny for about $375 (limited supply)

[This message has been edited by FieroJimm (edited 11-16-2008).]

Before you get too worried about installing a pilot bushing check and see if the input shaft is long enough to use one. My trans is installed right now but it (isuzu) did not look like it would make any difference. It would however be a great idea to have one if it would work...

Sorry to see what happened to your trans, that is a mess!

[This message has been edited by cptsnoopy (edited 11-16-2008).]

Oh and it's not the HP that did it, it was down shifting.

The pilot bushing keeps the clutch plate centered because if it goes off center for any reason it could cause the connections between the center and the disk to fail. Those connections can take tons of force in sheer but they are very thin and weak in any other direction. You can almost break the center out of a clutch disk by hand...

Put the pilot bushing in or DO NOT down shift the trans when coming to stops.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: or DO NOT down shift the trans when coming to stops.

Why put the wear and stress on the tranny, clutch and engine by doing this? That's what your brakes are for.

quote Originally posted by GT86: Why put the wear and stress on the tranny, clutch and engine by doing this? That's what your brakes are for.

Ummm the same reason men climb mountains I suppose. Ever hear the term "to each his own"? Well thats how I do things... if you dont like it then dont do it... I like it so I do it. Simple huh?

Sorry that you blew that trans in half but pilot bearing or not, the result would have been the same. The Getrag input shaft is too short to reach into the flywheel so a pilot bearing won't do you any good at all. Your trans probably blew from 200K miles of driving without it being refreshed/rebuilt. Bearings, synchro rings, gears, and seals wear. As they wear slop in the rotating members will develop , you'll lose oil and the trans gets weaker.
As for the Fiero trans not needing a pilot bearing; I believe that adding one would have been beneficial especially as the trans aged, but the designers obviously didn't agree.
If you can't find a good used tranmsiion, check out the Beretta Getrags that have a later design with a stronger differential. These Getrags will install with a simple kit from Rodney Dickman and a speedometer calibration box from Dakota Digital. They often come up on eBay and you can sometimes find them by doing a search of the junkyards in your area.

------------------
87GT - 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by cptsnoopy: Before you get too worried about installing a pilot bushing check and see if the input shaft is long enough to use one. My trans is installed right now but it (isuzu) did not look like it would make any difference. It would however be a great idea to have one if it would work... Sorry to see what happened to your trans, that is a mess!

This "was" an isuzu... and it used to have a pilot bushing... now it has neither an isuzu or a pilot bushing but it will at some time in the future and you can take that to the bank and cash it.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I'm surprised you didn hear it from your place. Yes it did... all 5 and one on the PP side where the clutch center wedged itself under it forcing the bolt head to pop off. The crank is fine but I need lots of Duct tape, CA glue and maybe some Elmers for the really tough stuff.

I wondered what that noise was....lol. I hear that Gorrila Glue will fix anything... There is also Gorrila Glue - Super Glue. I used it on some center console vinyl and it has worked great. If it will hold that stuff, it most certainly will put a trans back together... Good luck with the rebuild. Give us some more pics when you get it out of the car.....

Pat

I never realized there was any question about it. You always use the pilot bushing when called for, theres absolutely no reason not to. The V6 simply doesnt use one, the 4 cyl always does.

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: I never realized there was any question about it. You always use the pilot bushing when called for, theres absolutely no reason not to. The V6 simply doesnt use one, the 4 cyl always does.

Umm, no.

quote Originally posted by GT86: Umm, no.

Hows that? Are you saying that there is a reason not to use the pilot bearing?

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: Hows that? Are you saying that there is a reason not to use the pilot bearing?

No reason at all to use one. The input shaft is supported internally.

And if you're talking about a bearing that will fit into the crank, the Fiero's input shaft doesn't even reach that far.

[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 11-16-2008).]

Ive never had a duke, so I cant say that for sure. I guess that makes sense, I assumed that since it calls for one, the duke was somehow diffrent and made use of it, but since the tranny and clutch is the same, I suppose if the V6 was fine without, it wouldnt matter if the duke did or not.

quote Originally posted by 86GT3.4DOHC: Ive never had a duke, so I cant say that for sure. I guess that makes sense, I assumed that since it calls for one, the duke was somehow diffrent and made use of it, but since the tranny and clutch is the same, I suppose if the V6 was fine without, it wouldnt matter if the duke did or not.

Well, even though there is a part listed at some stores (and possibly even in the P-22 manual), Fieros don't use them. In fact, they came from the factory without a pilot bearing. Bill's idea that his tranny failed because he didn't have a pilot is incorrect. His theory that the pilot will help keep the input shaft centered is incorrect. His tranny failed to due age and abuse.

This thread needs to be closed.

[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 11-16-2008).]

Ah, good to know.

I have yet to see a Fiero tranny that has an input shaft long enough to use a pilot bushing. If the input shaft doesn't reach the crank then it will not reach into a pilot bushing.

That was not caused by not having a pilot bushing. It was caused by down shifting into first and basicly using the transmission as a brake.

------------------
11.425 @115.60
Best 60' 1.543 seconds
3800 S/C 4T65E

Wow .. All that oil by the Motor and no fire . They say fiero catch on fiero .. yeah right lol ..
Sorry to for your tranny to go like it did .. Hope it all can be fix for you soon Bill whit not to much $$$

Rob

quote Originally posted by GT86: Well, even though there is a part listed at some stores (and possibly even in the P-22 manual), Fieros don't use them.

Yes they did.
My 2.5 had one and it came with one from the factory, I never installed it and the engine was OEM. The engineers obviously had this part installed for a reason and that reason is made painfully obvious in the pictures above.

As far as abuse, you have no basis on which to make that claim or even assume it.

My transmission lasted over 200k and probably would have lasted much longer with a pilot busing installed. My Engine.. an 88 with balancer lasted over 170k which is (from what I hear) more than double what most others get. Why? Because I change oil regularly and I don't "abuse" my equipment. This failure was the result of a missing part that would have kept the clutch plate centered.

quote These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use: Model Year Drive Model Part # View 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.

Fierostore
84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING
This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros.
Part #69785
Price:$14.95
CLICK HERE

Get one and remove all doubt.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]

quote Originally posted by GT86: Well, even though there is a part listed at some stores (and possibly even in the P-22 manual), Fieros don't use them. In fact, they came from the factory without a pilot bearing. Bill's idea that his tranny failed because he didn't have a pilot is incorrect. His theory that the pilot will help keep the input shaft centered is incorrect. His tranny failed to due age and abuse. This thread needs to be closed.

^^^^^ Pay attention to what he said ^^^^^

I also argee that this thread should be closed.

It gives out 100% incorrect information & should be closed.

Archie

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Yes they did. My 2.5 had one and it came with one from the factory, I never installed it and the engine was OEM. The engineers obviously had this part installed for a reason and that reason is made painfully obvious in the pictures above. As far as abuse, you have no basis on which to make that claim or even assume it. My transmission lasted over 200k and probably would have lasted much longer with a pilot busing installed. My Engine.. an 88 with balancer lasted over 170k which is (from what I hear) more than double what most others get. Why? Because I change oil regularly and I don't "abuse" my equipment. This failure was the result of a missing part that would have kept the clutch plate centered.

Measure your input shaft and then come back and tell me if the pilot bushing was doing any good. I realize the 84's were different, but the pilot is worthless since it doesn't do anything. Why do you suppose they stopped using it? And I don't even know if they used it on 84's, as some claim, since I never saw one of the 84's I've worked on.

And yes, if you are continually using the tranny as a brake, you are abusing it. The only thing "painfully obvious" is your ignorance of what you are talking about.

[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 11-16-2008).]

quote Originally posted by GT86: Measure your input shaft and then come back and tell me if the pilot bushing was doing any good. I realize the 84's were different, but the pilot is worthless since it doesn't do anything. Why do you suppose they stopped using it?

Quite obviously they did use it since my previous 2.5 had one in it. How can't you sit there and say they didn't use it when mine had one in it. How can you explain that? You cant becasue IT WAS INSTALLED for a very good reason.

In addition to that the flywheel clutch PP and TO bearing were all replaced when I installed my rebuilt engine. The ONLY part that was not installed was a very small piece of brass called a PILOT BUSHING.

quote And yes, if you are continually using the tranny as a brake, you are abusing it. The only thing "painfully obvious" is your ignorance of what you are talking about.

I see you are not going to give up until you have this thread trashed.

quote These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use: Model Year Drive Model Part # View 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.

Fierostore
84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING
This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros.
Part #69785
Price:$14.95
CLICK HERE

Get one and remove all doubt.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I see you are not going to give up until you have this thread trashed.

You're giving out bad information in a tech thread. It needs to be trashed. Archie has seen more Fieros than you or I ever will, and he's saying you're wrong.

The pilot bushing was probably used for the rearwheel drive applications. No measurements are necessary as the crank flange is about flush with the trans mounting surface on the block and the trans input shaft if I recall correctly is slightly recessed in the bellhousing. If the shaft does not extend past the bellhousing mounting surface it can't reach the crank or pilot bushing.

quote Originally posted by GT86: You're giving out bad information in a tech thread. It needs to be trashed. Archie has seen more Fieros than you or I ever will, and he's saying you're wrong.

Bad information THE ****ING engine came from the factory with a PILOT BUSHING INSTALLED and you are trying to say that it didnt.

OBVIOUSLY IT WAS INSTALLED FOR A REASON...
Engineers dont put parts into cars unless they are needed... this IS AN 88 and it was installed so IT WAS NEEDED...

WTF is your probem dewd... it's just a 5.00 part.

INSTALL IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use: Model Year Drive Model Part # View 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.

Fierostore
84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING
This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros.
Part #69785
Price:$14.95
CLICK HERE

Get one and remove all doubt.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Bad information THE ****ING engine came from the factory with a PILOT BUSHING INSTALLED and you are trying to say that it didnt. OBVIOUSLY IT WAS INSTALLED FOR A REASON... Engineers dont put parts into cars unless they are needed... this IS AN 88 and it was installed so IT WAS NEEDED... WTF is your probem dewd... it's just a 5.00 part. INSTALL IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Simple question: does the input shaft have enough length to engage a pilot bearing?

You're trying to tell people installing a pilot will help. I'm saying a pilot bushing will do nothing at all to help.

quote Originally posted by GT86: Simple question: does the input shaft have enough length to engage a pilot bearing? You're trying to tell people installing a pilot will help. I'm saying a pilot bushing will do nothing at all to help.

Engineers have more experience than you, me and archie combined... They installed a pilot bushing IN MY 88 2.5. Now I am not the sharpest pencil in the box bot it was evidently put there FOR A REASON.

Usually it is installed to support the input shaft / quill to KEEP THE CLUTCH FROM WOBBLING AND CAUSING EXCESSIVE VIBRATIONS WHICH WILL CAUSE CATASTROPHIC FAILURE.

Why mess with it? Why take a chance on failure when all one needs to do IS INSTALL A PILOT BUSHING and have piece of mind?

The only reason not to install a 5 dollar part is because YOU say so? Phhhhhhh... who the hell are you? Are you an engineer?

quote These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use: Model Year Drive Model Part # View 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.

Fierostore
84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING
This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros.
Part #69785
Price:$14.95
CLICK HERE

Get one and remove all doubt.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Engineers have more experience than you, me and archie combined... They installed a pilot bushing IN MY 88 2.5. Now I am not the sharpest pencil in the box bot it was evidently put there FOR A REASON. Usually it is installed to support the input shaft / quill to KEEP THE CLUTCH FROM WOBBLING AND CAUSING EXCESSIVE VIBRATIONS WHICH WILL CAUSE CATASTROPHIC FAILURE. Why mess with it? Why take a chance on failure when all one needs to do IS INSTALL A PILOT BUSHING and have piece of mind? The only reason not to is because YOU say so? Phhhhhhh... who the hell are you? Are you an engineer?

'
The simple answer to the simple question is "no".

Deny it all you want, but it's quite obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. As usual...

um, this is so obvious. take your supposedly helpful pilot bearing. slide it over the input shaft of a fiero tranny. (assuming it will even go over the input shaft end)
oh! wait! the splines go to within .15 " of the end of the input shaft. (you can see that in your picture) there is no nose bearing surface. hmmm, how is that going to go into anything? A tranny shaft with a pilot bearing usually has about .75 to 1" of bearing surface.
Looks to me more like clutch failure. there is another thread on a clutch failure on a v6 that does not use the pilot bearing, and the destruction of the case is almost identical.

downshifitng is absolutely a horrible thing to do especially to an old tranny anyway. you are putting force on the backsides of the gearing, forcing them to thrust in the the opposite direction, and while there is expected that you will have some of that in normal driving, ie letting off the gas to slow with traffic, this was not designed like a truck tranny that you will use engine braking.
ev en if it had a pilot bearing, the results would have been the same.

quote Originally posted by GT86: The simple answer to the simple question is "no". Deny it all you want, but it's quite obvious you have no idea what you're talking about. As usual...

As usual? Ya okay, like I give lots of technical advice here? Dewd get a freaking life.


5 dollars or your assumptions that the engineers felt like pissin away 5 dollars in brass for no apparent reason. I say let the people decide who is right and who is wrong, one thing FOR SURE is I didnt put one into my crank ON THE ADVICE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU and this is what happened to my fiero.

quote These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use: Model Year Drive Model Part # View 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.

Fierostore
84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING
This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros.
Part #69785
Price:$14.95
CLICK HERE

Get one and remove all doubt.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: As usual? Ya okay, like I give lots of technical advice here? Dewd get a freaking life. 5 dollars or your assumptions that the engineers felt like pissin away 5 dollars in brass for no apparent reason. I say let the people decide who is right and who is wrong, one thing FOR SURE is I didnt put one into my crank ON THE ADVICE OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU and this is what happened to my fiero.

I'm glad you don't give out lots of tech advice, if this is your level of quality. You do however, run your mouth in other sections and yep, you're usually wrong.

Your tranny failed due to age and/or abuse, not because a pilot bushing wasn't there. A bushing, by the way, that physically can't do anything to help support the input shaft. Again, the input shaft doesn't reach far enough to engage a pilot, plain and simple.

This is my last post in this waste of a thread. For those looking for pilot bearing info, simply do a search. You'll find that all sorts of very knowledgeable folks (Bill isn't in that group) will set you straight about pilots and Fieros.

[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 11-16-2008).]

whatever.

quote These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use: Model Year Drive Model Part # View 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.

Fierostore
84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING
This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros.
Part #69785
Price:$14.95
CLICK HERE

Get one and remove all doubt.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]

No GM FWD Stick Shift transmission uses a Pilot Bushing.

Some Fiero replacement engines do have what looks like a Pilot bushing because the Fiero automatic torque convertor used the pc. of brass to center the torque convertor on the same C.Line as the crankshaft.

The Fiero stick shift input shaft doesn't have a counter O.D. on it to go into a pilot bushing. (see picture)

Additionally All GM FWD Stick shift transmissions have a Roller Bearing on the input shaft. Putting a pilot bearing on that input shaft would be the equivalent putting 3 bearings on one shaft. Anyone with half a brain knows that you can't put 3 bearings on one axis without binding in some way. The only way you can have more than 2 roller bearings on the same axis it to machine & finish all the bearing bores at the same time. Like you would when Align Boring Crankshaft Bearings.



Archie

That is a FALSE statement. My 88 Fiero vin code R came with one installed from the factory. Anyone with a brain would REinstall it.. or they can take your advice... which I did but never will again.

THIS @ 14.95

OR possibly this @ 500+

quote Originally posted by Archie: No GM FWD Stick Shift transmission uses a Pilot Bushing. Archie

Spend 14.95 or dont spend 14.95 the decision for me is now VERY EASY to make.

Your false statements along with several others will not buy the parts I need to fix my nor anyone elses car. 14.95 just might... so why tell others that 14.95 isnt money well spent?

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-16-2008).]

I can appreciate the advice Bill, but is there any evidence that the lack of a pilot bushing is the root cause of the failure?
On a 200k mile transmission, it could fail at any time for any number of reasons.

It's also quite possible the bushing was installed at the factory because RWD applications get them or it might have been done by mistake. I've always read that the Fiero doesn't use one because the input shaft is fully supported by the input shaft bearing and collar. Transmissions that use pilot bushings don't have that type of input shaft bearing to support the shaft.

Archie is right about 3 bearings on 1 shaft. The a solid shaft supported by 2 bearings is fine, and either bearing can be off tolerance slightly without problem. But when you add a third, all three must be in near perfect alignment to keep from binding the shaft.

I don't doubt your 2.5 came with a pilot bushing. But I don't think that was the cause of your tranny failure.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 11-16-2008).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I don't doubt your 2.5 came with a pilot bushing. But I don't think that was the cause of your tranny failure.

Lets put it this way... I NEVER had a transmission fail like this in the past and I have not change my driving habits in 27+ years... if anything I am more conservative now than I was 20 years ago when I was 10 feet tall and bullet proof.

The fact remains THERE IS A DOUBT.

If I had installed the 15 DOLLAR part and this happened then I would not have created this thread... I DID SO to POSSIBLY save someone else the trouble. 14.95 aint squat to spend... I WILL NOW SPEND IT.

Nuff said and I am sick and tired of arguing about common sense... no matter where I go or what I say there is some ass out there who just defies common sense.. Install the part, simple as that.. I SHOULD HAVE NEVER trusted these guys and I sure as hell wont in the future.

quote These inserts are pressed into the rear of the crankshaft and provide support for either the input shaft of a standard transmission or direct support of the torque converter hub of an automatic transmission. Use the following chart and diagrams when selecting a replacement crankshaft insert, keeping in mind GM also supplied engines to the Jeep Corporation for postal use: Model Year Drive Model Part # View 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep J3237088 D 1977-81 RWD Postal Jeep 33004041 E 1977-91 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A 1978-93 FWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10009785 B 1982-83 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ automatic trans 10018699 C 1982-83 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1982-86 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ manual 10007202 A 1984-86 FWD w/ automatic transmission 10018699 C 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ automatic trans. 10018699 C 1984 FWD w/ manual transmission 10009785 B 1984-86 RWD Fiero w/ manual trans. 10009785 B 1984 RWD Camaro, Firebird w/ auto 10018699 C- OD 1.498, ID .827 1985-93 RWD GMC, S-10 Chevy 3752487 E 1987-93 RWD S-10 Chevy, w/ manual trans. 10032605 1987-93 RWD Buick, Olds, Pont, Chevy 10007202 A It is recommended to inspect all crankshafts to ensure that the proper insert is installed to match the desired application. AERA is currently aware of several aftermarket suppliers for some of the above mentioned inserts.

Fierostore
84-88 4cyl CLUTCH PILOT BUSHING
This new pilot bushing installs in the end of the crankshaft on 4cyl standard transmission Fieros.
Part #69785
Price:$14.95
CLICK HERE

Get one and remove all doubt.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-17-2008).]