I don't know much about turbos, but a local guy has one for sale. Would it work on a 3.4 pushrod?

TIA

Vin

easy answer yes
hard answer maybe


a "turbo" will work on any engine, it just depends on its compressor map if it should be used on a certain engine.

i belive the t3/t4 hybrids do work well on the 3.4's, but i cant give you an honest yes.

The T04 57-trim would be decent for a 3.4. If you ran aroun 10-12psi, you would be on the compressor map running between 70-76% efficiency through most of the rpm range. 10psi would put you around 320-330 crank hp (on paper).

What is the a/r of the exhaust housing? This'll help determine spool time. Somewhere between a .52 and .62 a/r on the exhaust side would probably be pretty good.

Thanks for the quick resonses.

It's .50 a/r is that no good?

quote Originally posted by FieroVin: Thanks for the quick resonses. It's .50 a/r is that no good?

It's not bad. It'll spool pretty quick which isn't a bad thing. I think a quick spooling turbo is more streetable. I would say that with that turbo on a 3.4pr, you would have full boost at around 3000-3200rpm. But that's merely a guess and I really don't have anything to substantiate that.

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'88 GT- 257rwhp 319rwft/lbs (9/07) 12.657@110.19mph 1/4 mile (8/08)
gmtuners.com

This is definitely a street car, I'm not really into racing or anything. Just looking for a little more fun, but I don't really want to lose streetability or reliability. I'm just wondering if this would be a good start to putting a setup together. It's supposedly new/never been used and he's asking $100.

Hey Vin,
If you decide not to buy it, please let me know and I will (if he will sell it to me). From all the recent research I've been doing for my attempt at a turbo 3.4 it does sound (as said above) that it should work pretty well for a reliable street turbo engine....with the correct tuning of course. Good luck!

quote Originally posted by FieroVin: This is definitely a street car, I'm not really into racing or anything. Just looking for a little more fun, but I don't really want to lose streetability or reliability. I'm just wondering if this would be a good start to putting a setup together. It's supposedly new/never been used and he's asking $100.

I don't think you would lose any streetability. as for reliability, that depends on tuning and the quality put into the install and proper components.

Although it is a deal on the turbo, don't forget how things can add up real quick. A custom y-pipe to mount the turbo, all of the exhaust and intake tubing and silicone couplers. Bigger injectors, a wastegate (A quality one), BOV, chip tuning, and other unexpected costs can turn it into a costly project.

BTW, I don't think they offer a .50 A/R for the exhaust side. That's probably the compressor side. Look inside the inlet of the exhaust side, or on the side by the inlet flange. There should be a stamp cast into it. .48, .63, .84 etc. For only $100, it's probably an Ebay knock-off, I'd be leary.... I'm running a T04E 60 trim on my 3400... With a stage 5 wheel in a .63 exhaust housing, I can get about 8psi by 2700 rpm. It's a blast on the highway.

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1988 Fiero Formula 4-spd- 3400sfi intercooled turbo Haltech ECU. Here comes 350+whp
1991 Galant VR4 - Summit White 2.3L, SCM61 powered Slammed Sedan
1990 Eclipse GSX - parted out
1992 S10 4x4 - lowered, bike/quad hauler, dd
1995 Kawi Ninja zx7r
2004 Honda TRX450R #33W MX

1987 Yamaha Warrior - for sale

NM

[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 01-11-2009).]

Guys, I contacted the seller and EMX was right. The compressor is a .50 A/R and the turbine is a .63 A/R. So it is a T3 / T4 57 trim with a .50 A/R compressor and a .63 A/R turbine. Still sound like a good match for a 3.4L pushrod? The engine will have cc-matched chambers (to largest of course) and thermal-barrier coated, slightly larger valves (1.78 I and 1.5 E hopefully), stock replacement 3.4 hypereutetic thermal-barrier coated pistons, Comp 260H cam, highly modified stock or Truleo intake, FOCOA headers, and a Mitsubishi 3000GT (I believe, can't remember) intercooler. Not sure on injectors yet. Just need to choose a wastegate and I am guessing a 38mm Tial blow-off valve. Somewhere around 8 - 12 psi. Sound like a good unit for this plan?

Thanks for the heads-up Vin!

[This message has been edited by rjblaze (edited 01-15-2009).]

If you're going all out, why hyperteuic pistons? Go the extra mile and get the forged

So true! I just like the tighter piston - wall clearances you can run with the hypereutetics than with the forged. Less piston-slap noise during cold starts. Tighter wall clearances + friction coating on skirt + zero-gap rings = more power! Tried-and-true on many a circle-track small block chevy. And with the thermal-barrier coating on top they become ALMOST detonation-proof.

[This message has been edited by rjblaze (edited 01-15-2009).]

Save your self the time and buy a stock GM block with hypers. Quads and L67 3800's have them stock.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Save your self the time and buy a stock GM block with hypers. Quads and L67 3800's have them stock.

Don't forget the 3400's have 'em too! (and presumably the rest of the 3x00 family) As well as a handful of other goodies that come stock.

quote Originally posted by rjblaze: So true! I just like the tighter piston - wall clearances you can run with the hypereutetics than with the forged. Less piston-slap noise during cold starts. Tighter wall clearances + friction coating on skirt + zero-gap rings = more power! Tried-and-true on many a circle-track small block chevy. And with the thermal-barrier coating on top they become ALMOST detonation-proof.

ha ha ha ha, Hypers are the WORST for boost, they are good for NOS but NOT for boost, cast is better for boost than hypers. If you are going to boost it, go forged. if you go hypers you WILL break them and then have to replace them. don't beleive me call Keith Black / silverlite and ask them if they are good for boost. They will say no ( I called them myself) and if you still don't beleive me, then you will learn the hard way. Hypers have a high silacon content and that makes them hard and not expand much. Smack something hard and it will break. My pistons were the most costly part of me boosting my Fiero, and I would not trade them for any other type. I have a cool cooked hyper piston ashtray now. No boost and/or NOS and hypers are great. Boost and hypers are the worst.

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"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
Las Vegas Fiero Club
Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

WOW! Great information there...thanks. I have used hypers (with thermal barrier coating added) on so many N/A engines that had (at one time) run extremely lean in the quest for more power and received no damage that I ASSUMED (wrong move) that they would stand up to boosted situations. HMMMMM...time to slightly re-think the process. Thanks a bunch!

Like he said the hypers can't take it. i had an engine shop put some in a 2.5 mopar once even after i told them not to and yes i had ashtrays in less than 500 miles. The Mahle cast work really well in the chrysler 2.2/2.5 and have been proven to take a lot of boost if there is no detonation but i don't know if they make a comparable piston for the chevy v-6 but you could check into it.
edit to add: even forged pistons can not take detonation.They just give you a little cushion to back out of it before any serious damage can occur. anytime you are in boost you need to know what is going on inside those cylinders.Big boost takes dedication and attention.

[This message has been edited by brokeagain (edited 01-16-2009).]

Complete agreement there! Detonation is a huge piston killer...even forged. Forged is more ductile and "flexes" a bit so is lesss likely to fail. You guys definitely changed my mind about my build.....spend the money.....forged it is!
Thanks

EDIT: you guys covered the failures of Hyper pistons perfectly... I'll delete my comments.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 01-17-2009).]

Well, stock hypers in 2JZ and L67 motors are doing fine north of 700whp, so if thats what you consider weak then I am all for it. One of the highest HP 60degree v6 motors ever used hypers.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 01-17-2009).]

That may well be. but if the manufacturer (who should know their product) says THEIR hypers are no good for boost (according to sardonyx247) then I won't use them. I have always known that forged are stronger and more ductile, but I got so used to building circle-track "claimer"-type engines that I didn't want to spend the extra dough.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Well, stock hypers in 2JZ and L67 motors are doing fine north of 700whp, so if thats what you consider weak then I am all for it. One of the highest HP 60degree v6 motors ever used hypers.

Then you go buy hypers for your turbocharged engine. And all the rest of us will buy forged.

Gladly. For those of us who understand the idea of engine tuning, our hypers and boost work just fine. The hypers will take almost all the power that the forged will, they just have very low detonation resistance. You just have to keep a good tune on the engine, and for most people, that's too much to ask for. As a manufacturer, its no surprise they steer you way from hyper. The forged are not only more expensive, but it will keep uninformed customers from bashing the products as often as they would if more untuned people ran hypers.

I'm currently using Hyper pistons with a turbo, I guess I won't be making any power, nor have any reliability.

quote Originally posted by sardonyx247: Then you go buy hypers for your turbocharged engine. And all the rest of us will buy forged.

Um, I never even said I was buying pistons. No reason to fix what isnt broken in the first place.

with that turbo, and likely a good sized external wastegate for the higher rpms. you could run around 350 hp.

only issue is that the engine will likely explode.

the following map is for that turbo, on a 3.4 with the following specs:
Target Power:__350 hp
Engine Size:____3.4
Target A/F:____12:1
BSFC:_________.43
Max I/C Loss:__1.7psi

______________________RPM Points_________________Vol. Efficiency___________________Intake Temp
Engine Redline:_________5200rpms------------>------------87% --------------->------------140 deg F
Peak Power at:_________5000 rpms------------>------------90% -------------->------------135 deg F
Max Boost at:__________3100rpms ------------>------------93% -------------->------------120 deg F
Min Boost at:___________2200rpms ------------>------------89% -------------->------------90 deg F


LINK TO MAP:
ht tp://www.squirrelpf.com/t...7=32.1&product_id=60

That turbo would spool up damn quick. likely need a good sized external wastegate, and would be tapped out at around 3000 rpm, at which point you'd be makin around 12psi and your engine might explode.

check out this link and play around with the numbers:
http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/index.php

hope that helps

[This message has been edited by JCUOIT (edited 01-18-2009).]

Thanks for the map information. This is very helpful. Since Vin is not going to buy this one I thought I'd pick it up. I was going to ask the guy where he got the turbo from and then try to obtain map information from them. What size wastegate would you recommend? I was looking at a 48(?)mm, I believe. Maybe 42mm (old-timers disease fogging the brain).

[This message has been edited by rjblaze (edited 01-19-2009).]

Shouldn't need bigger than a 38mm for your setup.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Well, stock hypers in 2JZ and L67 motors are doing fine north of 700whp, so if thats what you consider weak then I am all for it. One of the highest HP 60degree v6 motors ever used hypers.

Go easy on the hypers guys, darkhorizon is correct about their durability. I haven't read where any of GM's current boosted engines are running anything other than hypereutectic pistons. If you use the proper equipment and tune the engine properly at the 10-12 psi boost level you are planning they'll work just fine. There are quite a few aluminum head V6 motors on other forums proving just that behind turbos.

They'll take plenty of boost, it's the detonation they will not tolerate much of and they are certainly stronger than the cast pistons which although not as brittle, are more likely to have trouble in the ring land area in my experience of having broken one. The 3.4L set of hypers I destroyed was solely the result of detonation that was so bad it could be heard audibly out and inside the car. I drove the car in that damaged condition unaware for months until the broken piston rings finally gave way allowing excessive blow-by.

So it is important to use the correct language in describing potential trouble spots, since saying the hypers will not take boost and making no mention of the fact that detonation is what has destroyed most of the boosted stock engines is inaccurate. The majority of the turbo plans on this forum that I have read about are by members with no tuning equipment and very little knowledge of what needs to be done to accomodate the modification, for them forged pistons are a no-brainer for added cushion against mistakes, but for 10-12 psi unless you really intend to beat on it I believe either way you would be safe as bone stock rotating assemblies are being used at that level across several different 60 degree V6 related forums.

If you intend to run a turbo without a knock sensor even your forged pistons will be in danger of failure. Several including myself have done that, including on the two engines that I damaged. If it's not a problem for you go forged, but make it worth it by pushing more than 10-12 psi since that's "chump change" from what I've been seeing, otherwise stick with the hypers and invest in the things it takes to keep the knock monster away

quote Originally posted by rjblaze: Thanks for the map information. This is very helpful. Since Vin is not going to buy this one I thought I'd pick it up. I was going to ask the guy where he got the turbo from and then try to obtain map information from them. What size wastegate would you recommend? I was looking at a 48(?)mm, I believe. Maybe 42mm (old-timers disease fogging the brain).

I would suggest the largest you can afford. That way you can avoid any backup issues in the exhaust. you don’t want hot, burned, exhaust sticking around in the cylinder because the wastegate is too small.

I know of a race team in the area that was drag racing a little crx with a little Vtec engine and a lot of boost. Only problem was that their 38mm wastegate wouldn’t flow enough at high rpms and gasses were being trapped in the combustion chamber. This robbed a lot of power, but they still put down 304hp. So on the advice of their turbo builder they upgraded to a 50mm Chinese POS on ebay and ran 382 hp after. This is actually the main problem with the old Turbo Trans-Ams. They had a wastegate the size of a dime for a 301 V8. Yeah, dumb.

I've been told both ways on wastegates, “GO BIG” and “go small”, “GO TIAL” and go “POS Chinese HKS rip off”.

To be honest, I have no experience with either, Just friends and professionals with turbos and money. and alot of research done for my turbo build. I have little money, and thus I have a Fiero. So I’m going to get a 50mm Chinese rip off because That’s what the local ‘Turbo-Guru’ told me works best for the money. "Just keep that thing clean and check it every once in a while" is all he said to caution me. but he also warned me to never ever get a Chinese turbo. He showed me a compressor wheel that was so un balanced that they had to insert Lead (Pb) into it because it was so bad they couldn’t remove weight to balance it.

Go with whatever your source for Turbo info says, and make your own informed decision.

Just remember that when you use a sh!tty wastegate and it binds up in the closed position, your boost is going to spike incredibly fast and you can kiss your engine goodbye. (Unless you're running advanced engine tuning software that has boost reference engine cut, which i doubt you'll be doing)

Don't cheap out on the wastegate. You will get boost fluctuations and there is too high of a risk that the unit could fail. If you want to be hack and take your chances, you may get lucky and it'll last a lifetime. If you only want to do the job once, just spend the few bucks more now and get something reputable. The same goes for the BOV. The BOV isn't as crucial as the wastegate, but I know people that have issues with the chinese knock offs. Once you get into decent air flow levels they will either leak or not be adjustable enough to the point where you can get a nice fast response and zero surge. Do it cheap, or do it once, its up to you.

There are some proven quality china gates out there, and instructions on how to verify their operation.... But due to the cost of used branded gates, I will stay with them.

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: Just remember that when you use a sh!tty wastegate and it binds up in the closed position, your boost is going to spike incredibly fast and you can kiss your engine goodbye. (Unless you're running advanced engine tuning software that has boost reference engine cut, which i doubt you'll be doing) Don't cheap out on the wastegate. You will get boost fluctuations and there is too high of a risk that the unit could fail. If you want to be hack and take your chances, you may get lucky and it'll last a lifetime. If you only want to do the job once, just spend the few bucks more now and get something reputable. The same goes for the BOV. The BOV isn't as crucial as the wastegate, but I know people that have issues with the chinese knock offs. Once you get into decent air flow levels they will either leak or not be adjustable enough to the point where you can get a nice fast response and zero surge. Do it cheap, or do it once, its up to you.

Not to challenge your stance on the matter, but can you give more detail as to what's junk and what's not aside from price I've heard both good and bad about knock off turbos with the latest consensus suggesting that the knock off turbos for example are a lot better than they used to be. Also name brand vendors are selling knock off parts alongside there name brands, for example I chose to go with an aftermarket water cooled center section and .60 compressor wheel from Turbonetics that so far has performed quite well and was said to be of pretty good quality from the rep that took my order.

My datalogs and engine performance show a pretty consistent boost onset and boost level hold for the duration with the knock-off wastegates I have. All of the comments about cheap = failure is hard to ignore and in many cases accept, as the price alone is in no way a good measure of quality. The fluctuation issues I've read about involving the wastegates is trying to run 15 psi for example on a gate with say a 3.65 psi spring using a boost controller, not much unlike trying to maintain valvetrain control at 7k rpm on springs normally good to about 6k rpm using shims. There's also the matching issue, my reading suggests; large wastegate for low boost, small for high boost.

Parts need to be properly matched. I have 8 psi springs and my boost level runs just over 7 psi at the manifold, the wastegate signal is from the compressor housing so plumbing is responsible for part of the boost level difference.

An important subject you touched on which also takes us back to stock vs forged pistons; engine management, if a GM ecm with boosted code is used he'll have protection against boost control failure among other things.

This seems to be new territory for him from what he's stated so far and it's probably better to master a good understanding of the science before dumping a few thousand dollars in name brand parts. As for me when I was learning I always did it cheap and now cheap and well, as I grasped more understanding of what I was doing and confidence that at least for hard mechanical parts, if you install them properly and don't abuse them they'll work fine up to a point where high end is required.

On occasion I've seen pretty expensive name brand parts up for sale by members across the boards due to inability to succeed at the task, or never getting off the ground from the start and that's no good. http://60degreev6.com/forum...and-rods-3100-t41933

You can build a cheap engine during the learning phase, get it running right and then build it stronger. That's what I'm doing and I'm not sure anymore as to how many stock engines I've turbocharged.

As I said earlier, if it's not a problem go forged on the pistons, and if it's not a problem still, go name brand parts all the way. Otherwise it might be better for a beginner in this territory to start conservatively.

So now you know, I'm cheap and don't like being reminded of it

Wow guys! There is a ton of great information flowing here. I wonder if this wouldn't be best in the "Turbo for dummies" thread. Anyway, I really do appreciate all the input so I can make some educated decisions for my build. I forgot to add that I will be running the 7730 ecm swap so I will have the available (really necessary as described earlier) knock sensor and GM-type turbo programming to get started. Just nas you said Joseph.....starting out small and safe....get tuned properly.....then improve the set-up. I love to experiment!

Another issue would be as to the placement of the wastegate and the BOV. I am assuming the wastegate should be positioned as close to the turbine on the cross-over and the BOV should be as close to the compressor outlet as possible...right? This makes the most sense to me (as I choke on my own breath). I am planning on placing my inter-cooler in the drivers-side quarter behind the scoop in my Archies-style rocker extensions with a small thermostat-controlled fan pulling air thru. (Maybe even CO2 nozzle) and also methanol injection.....keep the KNOCK MONSTER away as much as possible.

All I ask in this thread is to please keep the information positive, lets not try to anger or flame anyone else due to their "opinion", I would hate to see this turn into threads I have seen elsewhere on here and other sites. Too many guys calling someone elses idea shitty, stupid, junk, etc. I just leads to anger, frustration, and the proverbial "flame war".

Please keep all the positive, useful information coming....I need the input.

Sorry to steal the thread but it looks like this might be the place to ask!

What size waste gate should I use for a 4.0 Aurora with two TD05H large 16G turbos?

I believe the best location for the blow off valve is close to the throttlebody where the initial shockwave will occur when it shuts, as to whether it really matters I don't know since the purpose is to protect the compressor wheel from the pressure spike as well as help keep it's speed up between shifts.

I'm using twin 35 mm wastegates but there was no calculation or consultation involved in my decision. The entry into the wastegate should favor the direction of flow where possible. It's also a good idea to locate the port close to the turbine housing but keep some distance between it and the wastegate itself to avoid to much heat being transferred to it. I imagine that's one area where name brand gates may be far more superior or at least can be expected to be.

If my posts come off as saying someones craftsmanship or build is inferior, please excuse my 'tone'. Since of course, tonality isn't really portrayed in text very well. Not for me atleast. I'm just trying to provide my biased opinions based on stuff I've failed at, and am trying to save someone else money from having to redo their work.

I agree with JU's last post about bov & wg

As it is said Jncomutt, "one persons failure is the beginning of the learning curve for another". I am glad you understand my point and I do apologize if I might have offended anyone with my comments. Please keep the information coming.

So as to the wastegate placement Joseph, I am guessing that placing it on an elbow leading into the turbine (with the direction of flow is best......makes sense there. I see your point abot the BOV too. If I would place it too close to the compressor I would miss the pressure wave closer to the TB which would have already passed the BOV in my original placement. I really need to read some more of my "Maximum Boost" book this weekend at the shore.

BTW HTX......ask away.....that is what this is all about....... information. I asked Vin if he minded my asking questions on his thread and he told me the same thing. He was not going to follow thru with his original plans and since the thread was already started, why start another?

[This message has been edited by rjblaze (edited 01-19-2009).]

I'm not saying this is ideal, but here is a picture of my current BOV location. The positioning is based mostly upon space constraints.



I also located my IAT sensor (as seen in the picture) to the charge pipe after my intercooler for more accurate air temperature. The air will still be heated by the engine as it flows into the plenum, but it should be more consistent here than if it was before the turbo. This also allows me to monitor the effectiveness of my intercooler.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 01-20-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: If my posts come off as saying someones craftsmanship or build is inferior, please excuse my 'tone'. Since of course, tonality isn't really portrayed in text very well. Not for me atleast. I'm just trying to provide my biased opinions based on stuff I've failed at, and am trying to save someone else money from having to redo their work.

Note my inclusion of smiley faces, as much as I hate having to use them, it is the reason you stated that I've started doing so. Although it's impossible except in the most explicit circumstances to gauge tonality in posts, it is very easy to assume insult based on common key words, as I recently discovered by unintentionally offending someone.

On topic one more thing to take good note of is the choice of exhaust material, if you use mild steel make sure between the turbo and manifold flange it is no less than 14 gauge, or stainless, or cast iron. If you wrap it make sure it is well protected from water, I wrapped my headers with foil and thin aluminum sheet metal after painting before using heat wrap so that in the event the heat wrap gets wet it will not be in direct contact with the headers to cause rust. You should also add an expansion joint between the exh manifolds depending on how well your "Y" pipe merges, the broader the merge angle the greater the pushing force between the manifolds during heat expansion and the more likely you are to snap the head off of a manifold bolt or have trouble keeping them tightened at the buisness end.

I used 1 3/4" primaries for my headers but I believe 1 5/8" would have been plenty. You may also want to take the more expensive route in exhaust connectors for ease of part removal using V-band clamps where ever possible. I couldn't find the size I wanted and for the price of two of the ones I did find I could nearly build a second set of headers; My brain wouldn't let me do it. One place I did spend some money was on the tools and tuning equipment.