Hey All,

Those of you that have or are considering a 4.9L Caddy V8, know there isn't a whole lot of aftermarket support. Bud use to do custom valve trains but said no more... Enter my pole for gauging interest = I have found a highly skilled machinist that will do a run of custom steel ribs that will allow you to anchor roller rockers, use stronger springs, bigger valves & a cam with .500 lift . The machinist works on straight time & the more sets he does at a time, the lower the cost will be. Before anyone has to ask, I'm not in this to make anything - I really like the Caddy powerplant and just want to save anyone else the hassle of tracking down sources. So if you think your interested, let me know !!

Cheers,
Robert

Hmmm... whats the price and what do I get?

Damn sign me the hell up !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

depending on the price - I may be interested

I'll get the parts list together - basically everything but the steel rib & camshaft can be had from the Summit catalog. The rockers are part # CRN-44746-16 - they're for the ford motors, same as the push rods. The springs are Comp beehive springs for the LS1. The pics are a setup Bud did - not going to get negative here, but the ones I'm lining up will be a better quality. The steel ribs should be in the $300-$500 range depending on how many sets we order - considering that every hole has to be individually machined, you can see where the time goes.

Side note - how can I put pics on here ??

What kind of HP can we expect out of this,Also are we going to have a chip burned for this mod?

all fine and dandy, but the factory heads will not flow well enough to capitalize on the upgrade.

use the search function to explore all of the time and money that has been thrown at the 4.9. it's a great motor, I love my 4.9 Formula, but RPM and higher HP numbers are very expensive and not easily built onto this motor, primarily due to heads and ports.

If you want to get the 4.9 to perform, concentrate on gearing to take advantage of the torque band. Remeber - torque is acceleration, horsepower is top end.

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: all fine and dandy, but the factory heads will not flow well enough to capitalize on the upgrade. use the search function to explore all of the time and money that has been thrown at the 4.9. it's a great motor, I love my 4.9 Formula, but RPM and higher HP numbers are very expensive and not easily built onto this motor, primarily due to heads and ports. If you want to get the 4.9 to perform, concentrate on gearing to take advantage of the torque band. Remeber - torque is acceleration, horsepower is top end.

Exactly. There is not much that you can do to the smallish 4.9L ports to get them to flow better. However, you can install a turbo to get this engine breathing better. Even 5 psi of boost (don't want to go too high w 9:1 compression) should really make a big difference and should be the least expensive modification. I want to do a 4.9L swap on my convertible project but I'll leave it stock as engine compartment ventilation in a convertible Fiero is a concern.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: all fine and dandy, but the factory heads will not flow well enough to capitalize on the upgrade. use the search function to explore all of the time and money that has been thrown at the 4.9. it's a great motor, I love my 4.9 Formula, but RPM and higher HP numbers are very expensive and not easily built onto this motor, primarily due to heads and ports. If you want to get the 4.9 to perform, concentrate on gearing to take advantage of the torque band. Remeber - torque is acceleration, horsepower is top end.

yeah, but MOST people will choose to get a P&P done on the heads when they do these mods, then it makes it all worth it. PBJ and rick stewart both had great results from a P&P job on the 4.9L caddy motor.

anothher important thing to remember: the upgraded valevtrain makes high RPM possible with the 4.9L, which makes the fiero manual trannies much better geared to the upgrade dpowerband of the motor.
I will give a 25% discount on 4.9L custom chip burning to anyone who orders Robert's components to upgrade the 4.9L. email me at stickpony@gmail.com for details.

interested. Waiting to see where this goes.

EDIT: Have you read this article. Upgrades similar to this have been done before. May give you some ideas to lower the cost...
http://www.fieroaddiction.com/caddy49h.html

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 03-19-2009).]

quote Originally posted by stickpony: yeah, but MOST people will choose to get a P&P done on the heads when they do these mods, then it makes it all worth it. PBJ and rick stewart both had great results from a P&P job on the 4.9L caddy motor. anothher important thing to remember: the upgraded valevtrain makes high RPM possible with the 4.9L, which makes the fiero manual trannies much better geared to the upgrade dpowerband of the motor. I will give a 25% discount on 4.9L custom chip burning to anyone who orders Robert's components to upgrade the 4.9L. email me at stickpony@gmail.com for details.

Define "great". Did they post flow sheets or flow numbers? Even the best port job in the world won't turn a 4.9 head into and LS1/6/7 or Northstar head.

While an upgraded valvetrain may make high(er) RPM *possible*, it does not necessarily make it *worthwhile*. See comment above about cylinder heads.

Not trying to rain on your parade, just save you from repeating history. If you come up with a good upgrade, HOORAY, as I have a 4.9 Formula.

Reply about performance - I'm not a Dyno numbers / flow chart / spec details kinda guy and I won't start the flame war trying to guess the power increases that will come with these upgrades. I will say, it's gonna be a sweet street car motor !! I'm all about driving my car everyday so it's not an all out power build, although it should perform very well. I've done a whopping total of 3 passes on a drag strip in my entire life & on those I committed sacrilege = I had my girlfriend, our overnight bags & a trunk full of tools in my car during each run - it was the HotRod Power Tour in 2007 & I was 300 miles from home but I still stomped all over the Honda they kept lining me up with, so may your opinion be what it may. As stated in an earlier post, similar upgrades have been done before so please reference those threads and make up your own mind. I'm just trying to help provide access to parts to fellow enthusiast.

Olejoedad - Yes, I have a 4.9L in my X-11 & it motors !! Well, right now it's getting worked over... I did the swap about 5 years ago & put about 15k on it before I collapsed a lifter on the #1 cylinder. I used a 27k mile powertrain out of a 93 Deville and it was all stock - but not anymore !!

I've got a webpage up detailing it all - http://www.petacar.org/members/Coper/coper.cfm One of my drag passes is on there but it's like 25mb in size, so right-click & save is probably the best way to view it.

Lastly - can anyone tell me how to put pics on here ?? copy & paste isn't working and there doesn't seem to be a button anywhere....

Cheers

What does the X-11 weigh? What tranny did you use?

My Formula uses the 4.9/4T60E drivetrain out of a 93 Eldorado.

Well, the registration list it at 2400 lbs (Florida charges based on wieght)... The swap was about a push for wieght - 4.9 is light than the 2.8 but I used the 4t60eHD which is heavier than the muncie 4 speed... So we basically have the same setup - Eldo had a different exhaust & a few degrees more timing but I used a Eldo PROM so I could run dual O2's for dual exhuast. My main problem is Traction !! haa haa The valvetrain mods will move the torque band higher so it'll help out loads.

quote Originally posted by 81 4.9L X-11: Reply about performance - I'm not a Dyno numbers / flow chart / spec details kinda guy and I won't start the flame war trying to guess the power increases that will come with these upgrades. I will say, it's gonna be a sweet street car motor !! I'm all about driving my car everyday so it's not an all out power build, although it should perform very well.

Sounds like you've got a fun ride, but let's be sure we know what we're talking about.
A 4.9 stock is a 200 HP engine. Fully built it might be a 250-260 HP engine with the best production manifolds, maybe 290 with custom long tube headers. There was a 4.9 build on this forum a while back which was a full rebuild including overbore with Northstar pistons, port work, cam regrind, Allante intake manifold and basically the works. It pushed 235ish rwhp, I think through a manual transmission. This might be 260 at the crank.

The 4.9 is very good at certain things: It is LIGHT, It is cheap, It sounds good. It bolts to FWD transmissions. It's probably a pretty fun daily driver.

It's NOT very good at making power. HP/$$ on mods to it is quite low. It's certainly not a 400 HP engine and not a 300 HP engine without a Herculean effort.

One the one hand, it's GREAT to see someone putting effort into developing integrated packages for it. OTOH, the one thing the engine REALLY needs to shine is a complete redesign of the cylinder heads.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 03-20-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Will: Sounds like you've got a fun ride, but let's be sure we know what we're talking about. A 4.9 stock is a 200 HP engine. Fully built it might be a 250-260 HP engine with the best production manifolds, maybe 290 with custom long tube headers. There was a 4.9 build on this forum a while back which was a full rebuild including overbore with Northstar pistons, port work, cam regrind, Allante intake manifold and basically the works. It pushed 235ish rwhp, I think through a manual transmission. This might be 260 at the crank. The 4.9 is very good at certain things: It is LIGHT, It is cheap, It sounds good. It bolts to FWD transmissions. It's probably a pretty fun daily driver. It's NOT very good at making power. HP/$$ on mods to it is quite low. It's certainly not a 400 HP engine and not a 300 HP engine without a Herculean effort. One the one hand, it's GREAT to see someone putting effort into developing integrated packages for it. OTOH, the one thing the engine REALLY needs to shine is a complete redesign of the cylinder heads.

The all out 4.9L build that you reference was built by Rick Stewart. I spoke at great length to Rick about this engine build and he spent loads of money building it. However, when all was said and done the engine got 14 MPG and the power was disappointing. Rick sold the Fiero shortly after he completed it and his final remark was that he missed his 3800SC. Point is that a 4.9L is not an LT1 LS1, LS2 or LS4. Since it is a ground up design of a low RPM torque engine, the way it will accept a performance cam and mods is different that an engine of more traditional performance design. I still maintain that if you run this engine keep it stock and if you want more power just bolt on a turbo...inexpensive and easy to do and probably 30- 35% more horsepower is possible. I like the 4.9L swap but would be hessistant to use this platform as the base for a performance engine.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Will: The 4.9 is very good at certain things: It is LIGHT, It is cheap, It sounds good. It bolts to FWD transmissions. It's probably a pretty fun daily driver. It's NOT very good at making power. HP/$$ on mods to it is quite low. It's certainly not a 400 HP engine and not a 300 HP engine without a Herculean effort.

I agree. I like my 4.9 for what it is... an easy upgrade in stock form. But in my humble opinion the money spent on mods is not money well spent. It's better to start with a different platform if you are looking for big power.

So yes, I understand the 4.9 is not the premier power maker but it's a good powerplant for what it is. All the reasons listed above is why I originally went with a 4.9 - I got a complete donor car = 93 Deville with 27k miles on it for $1500, add a few hundred for hoses & two WCF trans brackets and I had a cheap swap. When I decided to go for more performance I could either start over with a new powertrain or continue with the 4.9 that now has just over 40k on it. I realize there are better motors out there, but as far as ease of doing a swap the 4.9 is the best V8 - I say this because after putting money into upgrading my 4.9 I came accross a steal of a deal on a complete LS4 powertrain & looked at the swaps by Ryan and the guy in TX (sorry can't remember name off hand) - there was a significant amount of fabrication envovled; if you want an rwd LS motor your talking $$. My point is the 4.9 is a great swap motor for those of us that do it just for the fun of driving the car, not so much for 1/4 times or HP #'s.

With all that said, when my restoration / mods are done I'll have just about $10k into my X-11 - now to most folks that is a lot of money (to me too!! ), but that's a complete chasis overhaul, 4 wheel disc upgrades, complete paint & body, interior & the creature the comforts (A/C, PS, etc) - all on top of the performance to hang with most any street car. Now consider my lady just bought a new car and even after getting $5 grand off MSRP, it still cost $15k - I'll take my X-11 anyday !! and before you ask - we get the same mpg's !! My best highway mileage to date is 33mpg and average mid to low 20's depending on how much tire frying I do.

Oh, and yes - I jumped on the LS4 powertrain, it will be going into my other Citation...

quote Originally posted by 81 4.9L X-11: Lastly - can anyone tell me how to put pics on here ?? copy & paste isn't working and there doesn't seem to be a button anywhere.... Cheers

Check the bottom of any forum page. Look for the red and blue icon. Thats PIP (pennocks image poster). Click the icon and follow the directions. Lets see those pics!

Ok, here some pics of the setup I have now... I'm not satisfied with the quality of the steel ribs which is why I sought out a machinist - and started this thread...

You guys keep saying "start with a better platform".............Well, why build a Fiero?....Start with a better paltform. Enough of th in house bashing JEEZ. If he wants to build a 4.9 let him. I wasnt a believer of what a 4.9 can do, until I was at this dyno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_fk4NqmPEc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW_h4rLLSqc


I dont particularly care for the motor, but I think they can perform, and with a valvetrain upgrade and a cam (his motor is all stock) his HP woulda been better.

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S.W.A.T.

[This message has been edited by SpeedWorksAutoTuning (edited 03-21-2009).]

quote Originally posted by SpeedWorksAutoTuning: On a Side note. If you haven't found a machinist yet, LMK, I might be able to set up some time on the water jet and get them cut out for you. I wanna see where this goes. Maybe Buddy will chime in...........Its time to make some upgrades for his next show season anyhow.

Cool, I sent you an email.

Nice videos - 300 ft lbs off idle on a stock motor aint noth'n to sneeze at !!

Cheers

[This message has been edited by 81 4.9L X-11 (edited 03-21-2009).]

For the recorded:

I have upgraded my 4.9 with head and intake work and did not see a decent gain (never mind a big one) from doing the work - granted my P&P only went so far as gasket matching (which is a lot in some parts). I have also opened up the intake an throttle body to 2" and gone with the same port size valves as PBJ did and shaved the heads (also includes a cam and push rods upgrade). After all this time (and some aggravation) I am still a 14 sec car (granted it is better) - but not a whole lot of gain. I have basically come to the conclusion that the ONLY real gains you will get is from forced air.

After speaking with PBJ, he has said that he wouldn't do the head work again. He would just throw a turbo on it and call it a day.


BTW: all the best at getting a 'kit' all made out and THANKS for offering this to the 4.9 guys that want it.

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 03-21-2009).]

quote Originally posted by SpeedWorksAutoTuning: You guys keep saying "start with a better platform".............Well, why build a Fiero?....Start with a better paltform. Enough of th in house bashing JEEZ. If he wants to build a 4.9 let him.

I just said that I'm perfectly happy with my 4.9 in stock form. You're right, If I were building a drag car I wouldn't use a Fiero in the first place.

If he wants to build up his 4.9 then more power to him, I wish him success.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: If he wants to build up his 4.9 then more power to him, I wish him success.

Cheers !!

I think His upgrades would work awesome on a turboed motor with the right sized turbo. makes it so you can have a longer useable powerband instead of blowing through the gears.


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S.W.A.T.

[This message has been edited by SpeedWorksAutoTuning (edited 03-22-2009).]

quote Originally posted by SpeedWorksAutoTuning: I think His upgrades would work awesome on a turboed motor with the right sized turbo. makes it so you can have a longer useable powerband instead of blowing through the gears.

From all the discussions and from PBJ's actual car, we see that Turbos have a lot of bank for the buck on the 4.9. In the back of my mind, once my car becomes emissions exempt, I might consider adding a turbo. But that's about 4 years from now.

Ok, so where do we stand with interest ?? If your interested & wanting to move on it, please let me know as soon as you can - either respond here or PM / email me. The turn around time will be short so as soon as I know what we're working with, I'll move foreward.

Cheers

quote Originally posted by Will: Sounds like you've got a fun ride, but let's be sure we know what we're talking about. A 4.9 stock is a 200 HP engine. Fully built it might be a 250-260 HP engine with the best production manifolds, maybe 290 with custom long tube headers. There was a 4.9 build on this forum a while back which was a full rebuild including overbore with Northstar pistons, port work, cam regrind, Allante intake manifold and basically the works. It pushed 235ish rwhp, I think through a manual transmission. This might be 260 at the crank. The 4.9 is very good at certain things: It is LIGHT, It is cheap, It sounds good. It bolts to FWD transmissions. It's probably a pretty fun daily driver. It's NOT very good at making power. HP/$$ on mods to it is quite low. It's certainly not a 400 HP engine and not a 300 HP engine without a Herculean effort. One the one hand, it's GREAT to see someone putting effort into developing integrated packages for it. OTOH, the one thing the engine REALLY needs to shine is a complete redesign of the cylinder heads.

yeah, that was rick stewart. he had larger intake valves, allante intake, P&P'd heads, delta .480 lift cam, N* pistons, and double valve springs. did i miss anything? anyways, here's the dyno numbers from his build thread, in a completely untuned state, where he was running pig-rich:

234hp and 304tq

assuming an 18% power/torque loss because of the transmission, that puts his crank numbers at:

285hp and 371tq


AND let me repeat, that was in an UNTUNED state, running rich.


these are vertually the identical mods Rob is doing to his 4.9L in his citation,( Rob's cam has a longer duration and higher lift) and with tuning, i dont see why over 300 crank HP isn't possible, and possibly close to 400 tq...

those are big numbers in my book for a streetable fiero and a Normally aspirated 4.9L caddy motor... not to mention that the engine wont make the car weigh anymore hardly, save the bigger transmission.

Link?

Was he running a stick? 18% is a high loss estimate for a stick.

My point is that for the effort and cost of that build, the results were less than stellar. For example, my box stock Northstar put down 20 more rwhp, also with a relatively unoptimized tune.

quote Originally posted by Will: Link? Was he running a stick? 18% is a high loss estimate for a stick. My point is that for the effort and cost of that build, the results were less than stellar. For example, my box stock Northstar put down 20 more rwhp, also with a relatively unoptimized tune.

almost every link i find on google says average power loss for a manual tranny is 18%, and average power loss for an automatic is 23%

as to a link, do a forum search for "4.9 performance", and you'll find Rick stewart's thread.

you also have to realize, that he's starting with a motor that cost pennies at the junkyard compared to other motors, weighs considerably less than an N* or a 3800SC, and he really didn't spend THAT much...a large amount of Rick's cost was polishing the intake, hehehe...

I'm just saying, the 4.9L isn't nearly the dawg that everyone makes it out to be. plus, the TQ numbers are better than your average modded 3800SC....

anyways.. it is what it is.. maybe for 1/4 mile runs HP is king, but from light to light, TQ is king

quote Originally posted by stickpony: almost every link i find on google says average power loss for a manual tranny is 18%, and average power loss for an automatic is 23%

FWD manual transmissions are more like 10% or even less at high power levels. Numbers like those above come from longitudinal cars.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 03-25-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: After speaking with PBJ, he has said that he wouldn't do the head work again. He would just throw a turbo on it and call it a day. BTW: all the best at getting a 'kit' all made out and THANKS for offering this to the 4.9 guys that want it.

funny, he told me the opposite, that the cam upgrade was a waste and that porting and polishing the heads made a huge improvement..

he said/she said i guess. i do know there is quite a bit of material that can be removed without cutting into the waterjackets to improve the flow of those heads

I bought a tune from you a few years back, never got around to doing the swap. Can you do a tune for boost and more rpms?

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S.W.A.T.

quote Originally posted by SpeedWorksAutoTuning: I bought a tune from you a few years back, never got around to doing the swap. Can you do a tune for boost and more rpms?

the caddy chip doesnt lend itself to alot of boost because there is no knock sensor. you would need an msd box for retarding the timing when boost happens.

the caddy chip is good to 6350 rpms

how do you get it to not freak out when the car goes past 0 vacuum? Doesnt it only run a 1bar map setup?

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S.W.A.T.