As most of you already know... I took my car to JR (PFF Name kitcarman) (website www.kitcarman.com) for a 3800 SC Series II conversion. Not only did the motor take a crap after only 3,000 miles but I found out that is NOT a complete 99 motor. The Supercharger and throttle body are from a 97. JR told me that my motor was a 99 GTP motor with 16,347 miles. Just ANOTHER lie I caught him in.

JR will not be doing any of the repairs.

I purchased a 2004 longblock with 13,000 miles on it from Ed Morad that will be here this week. I have started the teardown of the old motor and these are some of my findings so far. If you see anything that does not look right (good) then PLEASE say something. This is my first time doing something like this and I don't want to miss anything.

First up is the oil fill neck. 1 of the times I was up at JR's I noticed that the neck was real loose and this was his way of fixing it.


I decided to eliminate the neck and just use the cap itself. Here is a pic of the valve covers re-painted in red with the cap installed.


Awhile back I had done the grand Am brake conversion of the rears and 1 of the bleeders is broke off so I bought 2 new calipers ($11.00 ea.) and painted them red.


I also painted the alternator red.


Here are some pics of the upper intake with the supercharger removed (old motor). Notice there is only 1 of the yellow O rings. There is supposed to be 2 isn't there? Is there supposed to be oil down there under the supercharger?


Here are some pics of the underside of the supercharger. Notice the oil on the gasket and supercharger. Should that be there?


Here are some pics of the throttle body (supercharger side). Is that gook supposed to be in that lower channel?


Here are a few of the injectors. They look awfull crudy to me.


Here is a pic of the throttle body side of the supercharger.


And final pic for now is of the fuel rail.


I decided I didn't like the green on the motor so I am changing all the green to red. All the above pics are from the motor JR installed. I do not have the new motor in my possession yet but I will be taking lots of pics and have lots of questions. I will need all the help I can get so thanks in advance.]

[This message has been edited by JimmyS (edited 01-21-2007).]

Man got to hate crooks who rip off people, like I said before if there is any thing I can do to help just ask. Dan

------------------


Signature compliments of F-I-E-R-O
2003 3800SC series II powered
www.photosled.com/showgallery.php/cat/631
www.photosled.com/showgallery/cat/1583

There are supposed to be two coolent O-Rings. Without both those, things can get really bad really quickly. The oil in the charger/intake could be from the PCV system. The lower part of the TB is where coolant circulates through and could have happened from crappy maintence by the previous owner. Cruddy injectors doesn't mean much, the holes tend to collect a lot of debris.

Just remember to use grease on those injectors during installation or they'll probubly leak like a garden hose.Allso I belive the alternater mounting points grounds it's self through the bracket (wear the bolt or bolts go through).You may have problems with your alternater not working.The rust crud in the lower port looks like water,(some budy correct me if Im wrong)it looks like a water jacket to warm the intake (it's supposed to be there).

[This message has been edited by James Bond 007 (edited 01-21-2007).]

If the engine blew only 3000 miles after the install, it may have ben the result of the knock sensor counts not being picked up by the PCM. This appears to be,one of the main causes of blown 3800SC engines. The engine goes into boost until detonation is detected and then the kock sensor circuit supposed to kick in to throttle back on the timing. If this circuit is not hooked up or the PCM programmed properly, it will destroy the engine in short order.
As for the installer, I don't have all the details to judge, but the story and picture that you paint of him makes one believe that he's a half ass mechanic.

------------------
87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
Engine Controls, ECM goodies, Chip
re-programming & odd electronics stuff

IIRC.....he had a couple of bearings take a poop........knocky knocky


-T


p.s. Jimmy......sorry for ya bro......I've lost TWO projects to spun bearings (305 in a'78 Regal and a 350 in a '69 Camaro) keep yer chin up!

I am not going to sit here and defend JR, but from the time I have known him while I was a member of Suncoast Fiero club he was a respected guy that all members could trust for his honesty and knowledge. There may be more to the story on that engine than what you or he may know about, did you at least contact him about what you have discovered before posting here?
Not trying to start a flame war here, but JR as I knew him would try to solve any issues with his work in a satisfactoy and professional mannor.

I have no idea who JR is but i've been following this build for a while and it looks to me that JRs work is quite far from satasfactory and professional. Sorry to hear the bad news. I lost my 2.8 to a spun rod bearing, and my 2.2 in my old daytona.

Just curious about the fuel rail picture... Are those brass hose barbs for the fuel hose fittings??? Anyone know if it's OK to use those there? I had one on my transmission cooler line, and the sharp edges cut through the hose and caused it to fail and burst in a short time. I'd hate to see a fuel line cut through and burst on the engine... The trans. lines are under more pressure, but still... Scares me.

------------------
Bob Williams
Working on the next 3800 swap.. Missing the one that worked!

Like said above, It is very important to have those 2 orings, That is one of the main reason your engine blew, I still can't believe he left one of those things off


About the oil in the intake, A clogged PVC can cause that, Mine had small amounts of oil in the intake as well, It can also be LIM gasket problems as well, If the cyl walls are not scored (from piston damage) I might be interested in the old block (if your selling), I have all the parts for another 3800 sc 2 but I got the block to it bored 30 over and in the long run it will be cheaper if I just get ahold of another unbored block, I have the pistons, crank, Heads, LIM, Crankshaft, New rod and main bearings, Pretty much everything for me to complete my backup engine build. (except a 3800 sc 2 block that has not been bored over or have cyl wall damage)
Anyway PM sent

[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 01-22-2007).]

Like I said I am not trying to defend him or anything, but he may have just installed the engine. Installing an engine and building one are two very different things. But still, it is good practice to tear down and inspect everything on a unknown engine before a install unless that option was specificaly denied but the owner of the car recieving the swap. Just trying to get ALL the facts before someone here gets a bad name.

I've tapped and plugged those coolant holes before, to avoid those o-rings from getting pinched when puttin the s/c back on.

I was also curious about the fuel lines..

quote Originally posted by OH10fiero: I am not going to sit here and defend JR, but from the time I have known him while I was a member of Suncoast Fiero club he was a respected guy that all members could trust for his honesty and knowledge. There may be more to the story on that engine than what you or he may know about, did you at least contact him about what you have discovered before posting here? Not trying to start a flame war here, but JR as I knew him would try to solve any issues with his work in a satisfactoy and professional mannor.

I called JR on Jan. 2nd (day the car broke down) and told him about it. He told me he would come down on Sat. the 13th to look at it and for me to take the valve covers off and check the rocker arms and to drain the oil and look for metal. I called him after I did this and told him there was metal in the oil and that I would be willing to go half on a crate motor that I found on the internet cause I would not let this motor go back into my car. He just laughed and said he wanted to look at it first. He called me on the 11th to say he would have to come on Sun. the 14th instead and I said no problem. Sunday came and by 3:00 I called him cause he wasn't here yet and I got his voice mail. I left him a msg and he finally returned my call on Thurs. the 18th. He said he had to go out of town! I told him thanks for the phone call to let me know (major sarcasm). He said well what do you want me to do? I told him nothing and that I was through with his sorry A$$!

quote Originally posted by JimmyS: Back onto my questions... Can I use brake cleaner to clean out the supercharger and the lower intake? What do I need to do to get rid of the EGR or am I better off keeping it?

You definalty got screwed on this install, not saying its your fault at all but this is what happens when you rush someone that is doing work like this. I know he said he would have it done on a certain date and that date came and went but things like this cant be rushed.

On the brake cleaner, do not use it on your rotors, it will eat the teflon off them and thats not good. Just pull the rotors out and then you can use a clener on the SC case and the LIM. To get rid of the EGR, you will need 2 block off plates that can be made at the house. Without the EGR you will not have oil build up in your TB and into your SC.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: On the brake cleaner, do not use it on your rotors, it will eat the teflon off them and thats not good. Just pull the rotors out and then you can use a clener on the SC case and the LIM. To get rid of the EGR, you will need 2 block off plates that can be made at the house. Without the EGR you will not have oil build up in your TB and into your SC.

OK I got the blades out. I am assuming that getting brake cleaner on those bearings inside the caseing would not be a good thing? Also should the inside of the casing look this rough?

Any comments (answers) on the above post?

Hate to tell you, but with even the little to nothing I know about superchargers, that one is toast, junk, trashed......

Kevin

its a shame your not around here i know a guy thats got 2 3400sc one im getting the other just sitting there and pretty cheap too they have afew miles but one would be good for parts later mark

quote Originally posted by Lambo nut: Hate to tell you, but with even the little to nothing I know about superchargers, that one is toast, junk, trashed...... Kevin

Well isn't that just friggin dandy!

quote Originally posted by ke4mns: its a shame your not around here i know a guy thats got 2 3400sc one im getting the other just sitting there and pretty cheap too they have afew miles but one would be good for parts later mark

PM sent to you

and as for the supercharger you can have a crack at saving it by taking that one to a machinist ad having him hone the walls and custom build th new "blades" and bearings for that one... just a very expensive thought....

and yeah its very very expensive huh...

sorry to hear about the bad expierience... you spent that much!!! damn dude, I didnt know it costed that much... and yeah I was looking into finding someone to swap a 3800 n/a over and thats a place I looked into as well... thanks for the heads up

quote Originally posted by JimmyS: OK I got the blades out. I am assuming that getting brake cleaner on those bearings inside the caseing would not be a good thing? Also should the inside of the casing look this rough?

Trying to think back when my supercharger was apart, If im not mistaken, Mine looked like that inside as well, Feel along the bore in the casing and see if it's uneven or feels really rough, INMOP looking at the pics, It looks normal, If it was bad, it would make some nasty noises.


Were you able to spin it easy when it was off the engine? Was there in the play near the nose on your snout ? were there any metal shaving inside the supercharger when you took the rotors out ?

[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 01-23-2007).]

Wow, just wow !!!!
I hate to say this about member of a car club that I belonged too, but I do not blame you one bit for your reactions. Hard to believe that this is the same guy most of the club members turned too for advice on thier cars because of his experiance. It's a shame what this situation has turnerd itself into, best of luck to you and getting the matter corrected.

sorry for your issues, but can i ask... if you are capeable of doing the work yourself now ,... why didnt you just do it the first time and save yourself ALOT of money

The supercharger is very normal looking for a 100k+ blower. There is no damage, the grouves, the discoloring, all comon for a higher mileage 97 blower. I wouldnt say that is the most efficent blower, the grooves could hint to some extreme amounts of wear, but the rotors are designed to wear into the casing and create grooves to help seal. If it was extreme, then your fingernail would become lodged in them quite firmly if you ran your nail across them.

Your teflon is in better shape than any 97 blower I have ever seen so judging on just that alone, your blower is in plenty good enough shape to use without any messing. The absolute last thing you would want to do is try cleaning out the grooves on the inside of the case.

The L32 longblock coming from ed will fix you up nicely, as will the gasket kit from zzp. The only problem I see is the fact that the "complete" kit of gaskets is way way overkill for what you have to do. All you need is a lower intake gasket, supercharger, throttlebody, valve covers, and oil pan. That comes out to about 110 bucks I think.

after looking at your orginal pictures, I notice there is a red tint in the goo thats in the throttle body, could that hint to some paint getting into the coolant?

The first thing that I thought when i saw that you didnt have an o-ring in the coolant passage, was that you possibly had one stick to the blower, as that almost always happens to me. It seems that I see a path of coolant leaking into the PCV passage after looking closely at the gasket. That would account for the blown rod bearing, as your oil would be diluted with coolant after a time.

The injectors are CLEAN usually they are compltely covered in dirt, and this brown burnt crud. Most of the higher mileage stuff I see, the injectors almost completely turned brown. I would just leave the EGR on, there is no reason to delete it, the dirty rotors dont hurt anything.

Those fuel rails are baffeling.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: The supercharger is very normal looking for a 100k+ blower. There is no damage, the grouves, the discoloring, all comon for a higher mileage 97 blower. I wouldnt say that is the most efficent blower, the grooves could hint to some extreme amounts of wear, but the rotors are designed to wear into the casing and create grooves to help seal. If it was extreme, then your fingernail would become lodged in them quite firmly if you ran your nail across them.

I can see in the pictures, there are grooves. I would only assume, to work the best, the walls need to be smooth, like glass. Like a cylinder bore. I'm not sure how the rotors would wear into the casing, as they should not move. So OK, it should still move some air, but it would seem, it would not do it's job very well. I would not put it on one of my motors. Just me.

I did a quick search, to get good pictures, and this site shows just how the web may work against you. The first picture shows the rotors turning the wrong way! Who can you trust now?!

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/supercharger1.htm

Kevin

A piston moves up and down, a rotor blade just spins inside the casing. The grooves do nothing to inhibit anything, and are extremely common. People that try to eliminate these grooves destory the seal of the rotors, and in turn destroy the supercharger's efficeny above 5psi of boost.

Also this is not a screw blower its a roots blower, the boost is not made in the blower case, it simply just pushes air into the intake where the boost is made by stacking it.

I am also curious about what your saying where they show the blower spinning the wrong way? What is countering my statment on grooves? I do not understand anything about your post insulting me.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 01-24-2007).]

quote Originally posted by $Rich$: sorry for your issues, but can i ask... if you are capeable of doing the work yourself now ,... why didnt you just do it the first time and save yourself ALOT of money

The main reason I did not attempt to do it myself in the beginning was that I lived in a complex with no garage tha strictly prohibited working on cars in the parking lot. They yelled at me one time for changing out my plates in the parking lot. I have moved since then and now have a 1 car garage. Second reason is I had no idea where to even begin with motor mounts, wiring and stuff like that. When I first found JR I was not a member here and did not know about all my other options and info. Taking 1 motor out, swaping over some bolt on parts, and replacing it with the same motor doesn't take a whole lot of knowledge and I feel with a little help I can handle this project.

so you started this thread just to bash someone??

I hear what you are saying, but do you have to keep bashing everything?
WE GET IT!! deal with it, and get over it.

just by the looks, you MAY need to get another engine, get it,then ask questions if it looks ok or how to do something.

I still can't believe anyone would pay that much for a swap....... way too much...

[This message has been edited by revin (edited 01-24-2007).]

quote Originally posted by revin: so you started this thread just to bash someone?? I hear what you are saying, but do you have to keep bashing everything? WE GET IT!! deal with it, and get over it. just by the looks, you MAY need to get another engine, get it,then ask questions if it looks ok or how to do something. I still can't believe anyone would pay that much for a swap....... way too much...

I started this thread to get help with what I am having to do. In the process of that, I am explaing what I find in that process. I am sure I will find more things wrong and you can bet I will be posting everything I find wrong with Jr's work. Once I have completely tore down JR's motor and have all that mess out of the way, then bashing him will stop, but in the meantime I get to let others know of JR's shady work and practices and others get to actually get to see pics of it. If you don't like that then thats your problem. Sorry. Not trying to be an a$$.

I have bought another longblock motor and it is being delivered tomorrow but parts of the old motor need to be used on the new motor. As you can see, 1 of those parts is the supercharger and "I am" asking questions about it.

quote Originally posted by Lambo nut: Hate to tell you, but with even the little to nothing I know about superchargers, that one is toast, junk, trashed...... Kevin

Now jimmy, your posting on here to find an answer to the condition of your blower. There are posts here that are just blind interjections of random people, so this really shows how little the fiero comunity knows about 3800's. Fortunely there are a few of us here that know things about them, but it is hard for us to respond to every post and question on here, so sorting though the un intelligent posts tends to be difficult.

To reinforce what I have said, your blower is FINE, put it back together and dont think about it.

quote Originally posted by JimmyS: I started this thread to get help with what I am having to do. In the process of that, I am explaing what I find in that process. I am sure I will find more things wrong and you can bet I will be posting everything I find wrong with Jr's work. Once I have completely tore down JR's motor and have all that mess out of the way, then bashing him will stop, but in the meantime I get to let others know of JR's shady work and practices and others get to actually get to see pics of it. If you don't like that then thats your problem. Sorry. Not trying to be an a$$. I have bought another longblock motor and it is being delivered tomorrow but parts of the old motor need to be used on the new motor. As you can see, 1 of those parts is the supercharger and "I am" asking questions about it.

Jimmy, I really hope you do not take offense to this post, but if so... just bear in mind I am not posting with ill intent. I tend to agree with Revin. We all got the fact that you were screwed... royally. It is very clear to everyone that has read your threads that you think JR is a piece of dung... However reading about it is becoming tiresome, and frankly, your threads are starting to sound all the same... like you are whining about it. The first thread was informative enough. We know you have to redo the swap, so "git er done", and move on. If you see someone asking about vendors for the swap, then junp right in and give your story about JR, (in fact you probably will not have to because there are a lot of folks that will tell your story for you at this point) but in the meantime, let's see what experts out there can give you advice about "how to".

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: A piston moves up and down, a rotor blade just spins inside the casing. The grooves do nothing to inhibit anything, and are extremely common. People that try to eliminate these grooves destory the seal of the rotors, and in turn destroy the supercharger's efficeny above 5psi of boost. Also this is not a screw blower its a roots blower, the boost is not made in the blower case, it simply just pushes air into the intake where the boost is made by stacking it. I am also curious about what your saying where they show the blower spinning the wrong way? What is countering my statment on grooves? I do not understand anything about your post insulting me.

I wasn't trying to insult anyone. The second paragraph was just a statement, not towards anyone in particular. "You" was to mean anyone looking something up on the internet, that's all.

On that web site, the rotors are spinning the wrong way. Again, that's all. Not a slam towards anyone.

As for the rotor just spinning inthe cae, what would happen if they were 1/2 smaller in diameter, or even just a quarter. I'm guessing a new one looks nothing like this one does. They are surely made to tight tolerances, so the grooves have to be letting some of the potential charge slip by.
Like I said, I don't know much about the blowers, and said that up front. But if you want to get snotty, I'll tell you, I make my power with cubes, and not trying to over power a weak six cylinder as my starting point....hope you know what you can do with your "blind interjections". I still would not put that blower on any motor.

Kevin

quote Originally posted by Lambo nut: I'll tell you, I make my power with cubes, and not trying to over power a weak six cylinder as my starting point.... Kevin

Ouch!... but funny none the less.

------------------

Sig by F-I-E-R-O

Well, they seem to be pretty darned picky about even scratching the walls on this site, and even mention how smooth the walls need to be, in order to work properly.

http://www.thrashercharged....htm/blower_tear.shtm

"Notice the walls of the cavity - these must be precision machined as the tolerance between the rotors and the cavity walls must be very tight - any slop there and your boost pressure would suffer greatly."

Maybe I'm not such a dumb a$$ after all......


Kevin