Greetings all. I'm about to dive into an electric conversion of a 1988 Fiero and while I have a good idea what I'm doing on the EV side this is the first time I've ever been near a Fiero in person That's usually how I start a new project, get an idea, buy a vehicle, then start figuring it out. My first EV conversion was the Attex amphibious 6x6 in my signature. I'm still debating but I'm hoping to use an AC system and lithium batteries. It won't be high speed, (65-75 top), and 30 mile range will be more than enough for me, the cost of lithium is still too high to do a long ranger at this point but I could expand it in the future. I should be towing the car home this weekend, (the clutch is gone).
Now for the questions. Is it possible to pull the 4 cyl motor out through the top instead of dropping it out the bottom? I assume not since nothing I've read suggests that but I wanted to be sure.
The passenger door skin has pulled away from the window by the mirror, I assume there is a metal support under the skin that is bent?
I guess that's all for now, I'm sure I'll have more questions once I actually own the car.
John
Hmmm, my signature didn't show up so here's the 6x6 I was referring to if anyone was wondering http://amp-phibian.blogspot.com/

[This message has been edited by JRP3 (edited 01-06-2009).]

Welcome...

There have been quite a few electric Fiero projects. The 4 cylinder can be taken out the top, especially if you are not concerned about reinstalling it. But generally it's easier to remove the entire cradle out the bottom.

Good luck with the a/c and lithium. I always said if I did one it would have a/c and I would use lithium, if not for the traction motors, then to run the a/c system.

The door skins are fastened to the (metal) door with screws. If it's pulling away then the screws have probably come out. Some 84s had christmas tree fasteners holding on the door skins that may have come out.

Those are the least of your issues...what's going to be fun is making the suspension hold the extra weight of the batteries. Or getting decent brakes to stop it. You will find tons of information on here about brakes and suspension.

This guy did a pretty interesting and (from what I can tell) well thought out EV conversion.

http://elfieroev.blogspot.com/

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Dave

www.ltlfrari.com

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Those are the least of your issues...what's going to be fun is making the suspension hold the extra weight of the batteries. Or getting decent brakes to stop it. You will find tons of information on here about brakes and suspension.

If I do go AC with lithium the weight shouldn't be too bad. How much does the 4 cyl weigh?

My brother in AZ has done one... heres a link to his page...


http://www.qsl.net/ki7cx/FieroESE.htm

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'86 Fastback SE 5 spd -'94 HD Electra Glide Cassic -'99 Chevy K-1500 Z-71

Nice. If he gets 75 mph and 60 mile range with the 180 ah Safts at 120 volts in a DC system I should be able to hit 65 mph and 30 mile range with 100 ah Lithiums at 96 volts in an AC system.

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your project.

There was a guy on here a couple of years ago that was working on an EF (Electric Fiero) with dual motors. Whatever happened to that project?

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1986 SE 350 V8

Maybe this one? http://www.evalbum.com/1396
I'd love to do that but it's a bit beyond my budget and skill level at this point. Maybe someday I can add a second motor to my setup.

Where do you plan to purchase your lithium batteries?

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: Where do you plan to purchase your lithium batteries?

I was wondering the same thing.

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: Where do you plan to purchase your lithium batteries?

I'm not exactly sure at the moment. I was leaning towards these guys http://www.beepscom.com/category_s/355.htm but suddenly they aren't showing the 100 ah versions that were there a few days ago. I may have to go with Thundersky instead, though I do know some people that are experimenting with some other brands that look promising.
The Valence batteries are insanely expensive, if they will even sell to individuals.

Thanks for the links and info. It still doesn't fit my bill though - a 12V pack (4 single Li cells) would be 62lbs and cost $1800! I thought they were much lighter. Also the one Fiero in the links above gained a 1000lbs!!!

The batteries in that link are 200 ah batteries. I'm not sure what your application is but that would be about the same capacity as 2 6volt golf cart batteries which would weigh about 3 times as much or more. A smaller ah battery would weigh less. You could probably do a 60 ah 12 volt lithium pack for around $450.
The Fiero that gained 1000 lbs used 2 motors and lead acid batteries, lithium of similar size should be about 1/3 that weight.

quote Originally posted by toddshotrods: Thanks for the links and info. It still doesn't fit my bill though - a 12V pack (4 single Li cells) would be 62lbs and cost $1800! I thought they were much lighter. Also the one Fiero in the links above gained a 1000lbs!!!

12V isn't going to do you much good. You need at least 120 V in a DC system and probably twice that in an AC system. So your battery cost is in the tens of thousands...

It's numbers like this that quickly kill a lithium ion battery car. That's why I was looking at the lithium ion just to power the 12V system and maybe run the air conditioning.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: 12V isn't going to do you much good. You need at least 120 V in a DC system and probably twice that in an AC system. So your battery cost is in the tens of thousands...

Exactly, I just mentioned a 12v pack to compare its cost and weight to one 12v lead-acid battery.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: ...It's numbers like this that quickly kill a lithium ion battery car...

That's what I always heard, and now see

quote Originally posted by JRP3: The batteries in that link are 200 ah batteries. I'm not sure what your application is but that would be about the same capacity as 2 6volt golf cart batteries which would weigh about 3 times as much or more. A smaller ah battery would weigh less. You could probably do a 60 ah 12 volt lithium pack for around $450. The Fiero that gained 1000 lbs used 2 motors and lead acid batteries, lithium of similar size should be about 1/3 that weight.

My goal was to build a performance hybrid - that's why I went directly to the biggest, baddest, cells on the site. I am admittedly an EV novice, so my thinking could be flawed. I was looking into having an electric motor, or two, on call for added performance (albeit in small doses).

It's not a Fiero, and this is your thread, so I don't want to take it off track. I was trying to limit my questions and comments here to things that could benefit other Fiero owners. I figured knowing where to get Li batteries would definitely help everyone. I'm going back to observation mode now

Not sure if the weight question was answered.

What I found said that the 4 cyl Iron Duke weighs in at 350lbs. Hope this help out since I won't have any answers when it gets to the other stuff
But you have me interested

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Not trying to hijack, but has anyone ever thought about adding a small gasoline powered generator to their electric car instead of or in combination with a plug? My idea was to have a small efficient fuel motor that would run most of the time and would do nothing more than be a generator. Something that maybe had windings around it to absorb heat and convert it to electricity in an attemp to make it as efficient as possible. A computer would monitor the charge of your main batteries and start it up any time it dropped a specified percent.
That way you can take advantage of the gasoline/diesel/propane infratructure already available and your range would be unlimited, at least at some capacity.

It would be like small pipe filling a big tank of water all the time. The average driver would probably only have to fill up once a month and never really notice any performance loss. There would be no need for plugging in. Pretty much just talking what an alternator on your car does anyway, just for bigger batteries.

quote Originally posted by Ramblin Man: Not trying to hijack, but has anyone ever thought about adding a small gasoline powered generator to their electric car instead of or in combination with a plug? My idea was to have a small efficient fuel motor that would run most of the time and would do nothing more than be a generator.

That's exactly what GM is doing with the Volt. The gas motor doesn't drive the wheels, just charges the batteries when they run out of charge. Some people are toying with that in a DIY setup, but my personal feeling at this point is if you need range of more than 50 miles on a regular basis then stick with your ICE, otherwise a pure EV makes more sense. If you only need long range once in a while, then keep a second vehicle or rent a car. My situation only requires 15 miles of range 95% of the time so a pure EV is perfect for me. Why carry around the extra weight and complexity of a gas motor, tank, exhaust, cooling system, etc., when you rarely need it?

[This message has been edited by JRP3 (edited 01-08-2009).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: You need at least 120 V in a DC system and probably twice that in an AC system. So your battery cost is in the tens of thousands...

Not necessarily. There are some smaller AC systems that can run on lower voltage, Solectria AC24 for example runs at 156 volts, and the system I'm looking into runs at 84 to 96. Of course these aren't exactly screamers but probably come close to a stock 4 cyl in performance, plus with better torque off the line. I'm hoping to put together a lithium pack for less than $6000, not including the BMS, (Battery Management System), which you need for lithium.

quote Originally posted by JRP3: I was leaning towards these guys http://www.beepscom.com/category_s/355.htm but suddenly they aren't showing the 100 ah versions that were there a few days ago.

And now they are back, but $60.00 more expensive than a few days ago For anyone wondering, I'd like to use these batteries because they have a higher discharge rate, (C rate), than most other large format LiFePo4 batteries like thundersky, but I'm not sure it's worth the extra cash. Here's an example of Thundersky prices from junglemotors.com

quote Prices for LFP- 40Ah $69.95 each 60Ah $99.95 each 90Ah $169.95 each 160Ah $289.95 each 200Ah $359.95 each 260Ah $475.00 each In Stock FOB our warehouse San Juan Capistrano, CA. 92675

They can probably be purchased more cheaply directly from Thundersky in China, but then you have to deal with shipping, and warranty issues, from China.

quote Originally posted by Ramblin Man: Not trying to hijack, but has anyone ever thought about adding a small gasoline powered generator to their electric car instead of or in combination with a plug? My idea was to have a small efficient fuel motor that would run most of the time and would do nothing more than be a generator. .

True GM is doing this with the Volt, and the difficult part is the software needed to maintain the battery state of charge. Also, a small Honda generator is not going to cut it. You will need a gasoline engine the same size as the one in the car now, so it's not really practical in a DIY car...unless you have a small gas engine and let it run all day while your car is parked at work, so that you have enough electricity to drive home. Might work under some conditions, but noisy and inefficient.

I've been holding back on sharing this...sworn to secrecy, you understand...

But this guy, Darrell Grimes, has the answer.

I met him via providing a few extra parts for an electric Fiero he had built.
He resided in Lexington, but was a retired robotics engineer from NASA, and electrical engineer.
He had spent over 15 years working on his "real" project...and electric Fiero that doesn't require batteries.

His website...planetarymotors.com....has recently gone down.
This is because his research has ended and he's formed a new corporation to build the first 25 production units,
as well as market the item.

Darrell has developed a generator that requires a small battery to "kickstart" the small electric motor that turns a generator.
Once up to speed, the generator produces more than enough electricity to both sustain itself, and drive the car.
This obviously means there is no mileage limit due to batteries, and no toxic waste issues a few years down the road.

When I first met Darrell, he showed me his "normal" electric Fiero, and I was quite enthused.
Then he said "let me show you my real project", and he showed me this thing that looked like an atomic bomb.
It was the generator.

Right now, Darrell plans to release his invention after the upcoming inauguration. Good timing.
I can't say what it will be called, or how it will be released, or who thru.

However, Darrell has the answer needed to solve the fuel crisis, the planet's environmental delemina, ....and he did it with a Fiero!

David Breeze

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Pantera Rebody Kits

Brought her home today, what a nightmare. The clutch is gone and the tires were frozen to the ground so I had to use a truck to break it loose. Then come-a-long it onto the trailer, but the car was so low it was hitting so I had to use planks under the tires to get it high enough. By the time I hit the road it was later than I had hoped and when I was a half hour away from home a snow storm moved in, and the remaining half hour drive took an hour sliding along at 20-30 mph with a couple white knuckle moments when I thought the whole mess would end up in the ditch. Then getting it off the trailer and into the garage was a struggle since the brakes seem to be grabbing. The next car I buy will be drivable, or I'll have someone else transport it.

Welcome!

I found this site to have a lot of good general info in it.

-Paul

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Journal of a concept: http://southeastfieros.com >>> Build Thread >>> Parts thread (for project funding)

quote Originally posted by opm2000: Darrell has developed a generator that requires a small battery to "kickstart" the small electric motor that turns a generator. Once up to speed, the generator produces more than enough electricity to both sustain itself, and drive the car. David Breeze

If he's built such a device, then he should win the nobel prize for physics because our current understanding says that such a device is impossible.

Well, I in as much said the same thing when I first saw it.

But relax, it's not a perpetual motion machine.

My simple understanding is that it produces more energy than is required to sustain itself.

The extra is used to run the electric car motor.

I'm hopefull it is all Darrell says, we need this sort of thing.

If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

David Breeze

quote Originally posted by opm2000: But relax, it's not a perpetual motion machine. My simple understanding is that it produces more energy than is required to sustain itself. The extra is used to run the electric car motor.

That is pretty much the definition of a perpetual motion machine, producing more energy than is required to sustain itself. Maybe there is something else involved that we're not getting, but.....

So all of what you guys are talking about is greek to me, but if you need anything answered about the Fiero you picked up, I will try to chime in.

Do you have any questions yet about the Fiero? What year is it? What will you be using off of the Fiero when all is said and done?

This is really interesting so far. Thanks for starting this project with a Fiero.

Darren

It's a 1988, 4 cyl, 5 speed. I'll have to upload some pictures somewhere so I can post them. I'd like to know if the wheels are stock or not, and if there is a source for the missing center caps. I'll be keeping the transmission but not using the clutch since a.) it's gone, and b.) because an electric motor doesn't need to idle and has little rotational mass you don't need it. I'm hoping to be able to sell the 4 cyl once I pull it since it seems to run well. I'll get rid of the radiator, heating tubes, and exhaust system as well. The brakes seem to be dragging but the E-brake doesn't seem to do anything so maybe it's stuck. I'll probably start poking around at it today.

quote Originally posted by opm2000: My simple understanding is that it produces more energy than is required to sustain itself. The extra is used to run the electric car motor. David Breeze

That's great...the only problem is that the energy has to come from somewhere. If it's not from a chemical, (gasoline) it has to come from somewhere. Has he invented cold fusion? I'll be interested to see a working demonstration.

Me too. We may see it unveiled soon.

What I saw was the typical electric motor, as found on most conversion websites.
It was connected to a stock Fiero transmission.
There was a relatively small electrical board which handled whatever circutry Darrell had come up with.
And there was this generator, bigger than the electric motor on the trans, but just about the size that it would fit down into the trunk.
OK?
This, compared to the same thing sporting as many deep cycle batteries as you can jam in, seems pretty good to me.
Especially when you consider the toxic aftermath of all these batteries. They do not last forever, you know.
Heck, I don't begin to know enough to explain what makes this rig work.
I do hope it works as Darrell described, though.

Back when I thought the earth was flat...a wise man told me that in most civilizations, any technology that couldn't be explained was generally regarded as majic.

David Breeze

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Pantera Rebody Kits

quote Originally posted by opm2000: Especially when you consider the toxic aftermath of all these batteries. They do not last forever, you know.

There is no toxic aftermath with batteries. Lead acid batteries are one of the most recycled products ever produced, because dead batteries have value. Lithium is non toxic, and also has value, so the battery pollution argument doesn't fly.

quote Back when I thought the earth was flat...a wise man told me that in most civilizations, any technology that couldn't be explained was generally regarded as majic.

Many have claimed to invent perpetual motion devices, none have ever delivered, so our skepticism is well founded.