So, I found this video of a fellow in Taiwan who has a "2.8L V6". We're lead to believe this is the stock 2.8L, since he doesn't know much English. But my friend lupusshearhart, brought something to my attention. That Fiero sounds identical to the Vauxhall Vectra VXR, which is a flat plane V6.

Here's the Fiero video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU23N7blxYo

My friend believes that 2.8L is the same that was introduced to the 2005 Caddy CTS. They both sound strikingly similar.

Has anyone ever thought of this swap? I know it's a wild change from the 3800's that drop right in, but I wonder what would need to be done to do this. I wish I had the money for it.. I love the sound from a flat-plane anything engine. That and the VXR specific engine put out some nasty horsepower, but unfortunately I don't think you can import one.. thats why we're looking to the 2005 CTS.

Isn't that engine family already transverse with a stick in the Saabs?

Yes, I think so, but that was called the LP9, and was turbocharged.

All the cars you guys mentioned use the GM High Feature V6. BTW, I don't think it has a flat-plane crankshaft. The characteristic sound probably comes from the DOHC valvetrain and high RPM capability.

I don't think so Black. Any cross-plane engine wouldn't sound like that. Here's an example of one of the two Caddy engines, this one is the 3.2L

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHLaV-cPrTc

Any cross-plane engine would have a real amount of "burble" going on at those RPM's, whereas a flat plane would sound just like this Caddy. That, and the LA3/LP1 are built upon from the Y32SE, which has the 54* V configuration, just like the LA3 and LP9 turbo. And the Y32SE has a firing order of 153624, usually a big giveaway of a flat plane other than the exhaust.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: All the cars you guys mentioned use the GM High Feature V6. BTW, I don't think it has a flat-plane crankshaft. The characteristic sound probably comes from the DOHC valvetrain and high RPM capability.

Agreed, its a 60 degree split pin crank ..no reason for it to have a flat plane being a 120 degree even firing order. It sounds like a baby lambo engine

the guy on youtube said
"Exhausts the total change"
it has a nice sound

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YAFMZyBPI4
this has a nice sound too.

quote Originally posted by Erik: Agreed, its a 60 degree split pin crank ..no reason for it to have a flat plane being a 120 degree even firing order. It sounds like a baby lambo engine

Which engine are you talking about, the LP1 or the LA3? They're two different engines. The 3.2 I mentioned(LA3) is not part of the GMHF family, and it's also a different firing order, one usually only in flats.

As for the original video, of the Taiwan Fiero, that was the 2.8L from the VXR. It is most definitely flat plane, but unfortunately, it would be terribly expensive to import the engine (and illegal too I think due to emissions) ... figuring out which GM engine is built from it is difficult. The internet is the most useless resource out there it seems... it would appear that if you own a 2003 Cad CTS, you are royally ****ed if you need a new crankshaft or engine.

[This message has been edited by Samohtneas (edited 10-14-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Samohtneas: Which engine are you talking about, the LP1 or the LA3? They're two different engines. The 3.2 I mentioned(LA3) is not part of the GMHF family, and it's also a different firing order, one usually only in flats. As for the original video, of the Taiwan Fiero, that was the 2.8L from the VXR. It is most definitely flat plane, but unfortunately, it would be terribly expensive to import the engine (and illegal too I think due to emissions) ... figuring out which GM engine is built from it is difficult. The internet is the most useless resource out there it seems... it would appear that if you own a 2003 Cad CTS, you are royally ****ed if you need a new camshaft or engine.

It doesn't make sense to have a flat plane in a v6 other than for lighter reciprocating mass. There is already a balance and secondary vibration problem that is inherent in v6s ( hence the need for balance shafts on some and counterweights on the crank for all) and a flat plane would compound those problems , have odd firing pulses so it would require balance shafts, counterweights which would negate from the reasoning to use a flat plane for lighter weight in the first place. No manufacture of mass produced vehicles would use such an engine as it would destroy itself in short order. Even Ferrari never had a flat plane v6 in the Dino but all their V8s do in subsequent cars. The la3 has the typical 123456 120 degrees firing pulses and that's where the sound comes from for the most part. My alfa v6 sounds just like the taiwan car and its the standard 60degree design with even 120 degree firing pulses. Heck my DOHC 60 degree v6 Fiero sounds alot like the taiwan car but deeper sounding due to the exhaust design. The taiwan car has the sound from its exhaust design. Thats probably why you wont get info on it from him on what he used to make the exhaust.

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 10-14-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Erik: It doesn't make sense to have a flat plane in a v6 other than for lighter reciprocating mass. There is already a balance and secondary vibration problem that is inherent in v6s ( hence the need for balance shafts on some and counterweights on the crank for all) and a flat plane would compound those problems , have odd firing pulses so it would require balance shafts, counterweights which would negate from the reasoning to use a flat plane for lighter weight in the first place. No manufacture of mass produced vehicles would use such an engine as it would destroy itself in short order. Even Ferrari never had a flat plane v6 in the Dino but all their V8s do in subsequent cars. The la3 has the typical 123456 120 degrees firing pulses and that's where the sound comes from for the most part. My alfa v6 sounds just like the taiwan car and its the standard 60degree design with even 120 degree firing pulses. Heck my DOHC 60 degree v6 Fiero sounds alot like the taiwan car but deeper sounding due to the exhaust design. The taiwan car has the sound from its exhaust design. Thats probably why you wont get info on it from him on what he used to make the exhaust.

I find it really hard to believe you can achieve the same sound as the Taiwan from a 3.4 DOHC. Take the two engines and listen to them together and there are absolutely no similarities in the exhaust note, especially that giveaway burble from the 3.4.

Are you thinking perhaps of a flat engine or horizontally opposed engine?

I think the easiest way to resolve this would be to find a crankshaft and just stare at it. I'm so frustrated you can't find a crankshaft for sale online I might just call GM and ask them whats up.

Edit: Just figured something out that might explain a few things. First of all, European emissions are completely different from American ones. So the chances of GM dropping a cross plane crank into the LA3/LP1. Across the pond, they can do things differently, for example, use different cranks which change the firing order and probably completely different ECU tuning as well.

A lot of current GM engines are based on Euro design, and we're still bringing them over. (For example, the 2.0 turbo LNF coming from the Z20LET) But due to the emissions requirements, some changes have to be made.

So while the Vectra VXR 2.8L is most certainly flat plane, and the LA3/LP1 are also flat plane in Europe, things are different over here. It would appear if I wanted the Vectra VXR V6... I'd have to have one imported. Goody.

[This message has been edited by Samohtneas (edited 10-14-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Samohtneas: I find it really hard to believe you can achieve the same sound as the Taiwan from a 3.4 DOHC. Take the two engines and listen to them together and there are absolutely no similarities in the exhaust note, especially that giveaway burble from the 3.4. Are you thinking perhaps of a flat engine or horizontally opposed engine? I think the easiest way to resolve this would be to find a crankshaft and just stare at it. I'm so frustrated you can't find a crankshaft for sale online I might just call GM and ask them whats up. Edit: Just figured something out that might explain a few things. First of all, European emissions are completely different from American ones. So the chances of GM dropping a cross plane crank into the LA3/LP1. Across the pond, they can do things differently, for example, use different cranks which change the firing order and probably completely different ECU tuning as well. A lot of current GM engines are based on Euro design, and we're still bringing them over. (For example, the 2.0 turbo LNF coming from the Z20LET) But due to the emissions requirements, some changes have to be made. So while the Vectra VXR 2.8L is most certainly flat plane, and the LA3/LP1 are also flat plane in Europe, things are different over here. It would appear if I wanted the Vectra VXR V6... I'd have to have one imported. Goody.

No production v6 has a flat plane crank ..It doesn't make sense even for racing purposes due to vibrations that one would encounter and balance problems that would negate from the whole reason for having one in the first place as mentioned before, as well as no real advantage breathing wise. The crank has to be splitted and shifted in order to avoid vibration between banks. One would think Ferrari would have used a flat plane in its DIno v6 if it were feasable. The 120 degree even firing pulses from the split pin crank do a good job of scavenging the exhaust ( better than a 90 degree cross plane would sharing common collector on a bank) and pretty close to a 180 flat plane but without the huge problem of vibrations and balance and very little weight added.

As mentioned my DOHC sounds like the Taiwan but a bit deeper due to the exhaust muffer choice and tubing diameter and length. I could get the exact sound by redesigning my exhaust, its a matter of harmonics. I had a smaller exhaust on it previously that had a higher rate of velocity among having smaller tubes and smaller volume muffers which raised the pitch which made it exactly like the Taiwan in sound. It was butter smooth at idle and well as sounding like raw silk being ripped in the higher rpm ranges.

There is also the intake system which is a big part of the total musical note that comes out of the exhaust ... My alfa which sound exactly like the Taiwan has a smaller plenum and shorter runners which lends to the higher velocity higher pitch sound the plays in tandem with the exhaust system to create the sound.i dont know what the Taiwan has for a intake but I bet its similar in design

firing order can be manipulated in a split pin crank to achieve even firing pulses 120 degrees from each other sharing a common exhaust collector. My alfas have a 1-4-2-5-3-6 firing order while my DOHC is 1-2-3-4-5-6. Both fire one bank then the other back and forth in progression with 120 degree exhaust pulse separation on a common bank for good scavenging of exhaust.

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 10-15-2009).]