ive heard the welds crack pretty easy. which welds are most prone to cracking? wouldnt reinforcing the welds with more weld fix this? and ceramic coating inside and out?

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First LX9 Fiero GT, 1987 | My Fiero Fuel Economy | MPG Display for OBD I
Youtube Videos of My GT | modernize your fiero with technology!
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
Fiero's are people too. We pay just as much attention to them, if not more than our loved ones
screw paying those bastards. im not going to become rich by paying for things.....

Yes they are prone to cracking...Had a set I just sold that cracked around #1 primary. Have read several Threads about othrs having the same issue.

I do not think they crack if the engine is snug in its mounts and the exhaust is hung properly. Ceramic coating shown below protects only the surface.







Regards,

David

[This message has been edited by MountainHiBlue87GT (edited 07-07-2010).]

quote Originally posted by MountainHiBlue87GT: I do not think they crack if the engine is snug in its mounts and the exhaust is hung properly. Ceramic coating shown below protects only the surface. Regards, David

The set that cracked on me came off a poly mounted setup with a low mount Alt setup with upper dogbone suppport. It was hung using a flex in the exhaust to keep the headers from being put in a bind. The headers cracked around the primary almost all the way around. Also when the headers where first fitted there was an issue with the cross over no lining up. The headers did do the job after the fitment issues where taken care of but then cracked several years later.

a thing i read on here was the cracking was just like the stock v6 pipes cracking... from rain water getting onto the hot manifold from not having the recall strip... glad i got mine on. then i read something else, that those headers really dont flow all that great. ill probably just hafta build my own set.

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First LX9 Fiero GT, 1987 | My Fiero Fuel Economy | MPG Display for OBD I
Youtube Videos of My GT | modernize your fiero with technology!
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
Fiero's are people too. We pay just as much attention to them, if not more than our loved ones
screw paying those bastards. im not going to become rich by paying for things.....

It is interesting how if someone expresses a negative opinion about some product it soon becomes an automotive legend on this forum and is accepted as truth by a lot of people.

No one has ever actually tested a WCF header against another header, I will bet you.







I mean, how much flow does a 3800 CC engine need?

Regards,

David

[This message has been edited by MountainHiBlue87GT (edited 07-07-2010).]

quote Originally posted by americasfuture2k: a thing i read on here was the cracking was just like the stock v6 pipes cracking... from rain water getting onto the hot manifold from not having the recall strip... glad i got mine on. then i read something else, that those headers really dont flow all that great. ill probably just hafta build my own set.

The headers I had cracked on the trunk side....If you are not going to MOD the motor to much then WCF headers are a great option as it also keeps the exhaust in the stock location. Here is a picture of the crack from when I was selling the headers......

Stephen:

Clearly, these are not the stainless version and I doubt stainless would have cracked like that.

Given time, water, heat, vibration, some hard driving, bumpy roads, some slack in the drivetrain, any thing can break on a car. Given that the cracks are not at the welds, it is not a workmanship issue , but one of normal wear and tear. That is why OEM manifolds are often cast iron and not tubular.

Interesting, that some one bought the headers from you; guess he knows or is a welder and did not see the ctracks as a major problem.

I think this is a good exchange and the photos and explanation of time passed, location, and water leaking on a mild steel header should clear up the issue for others. I think if you lived in CA or AZ with almost no rain, the cracking might never have occurred. Who knows?

My suggestion to go stainless may solve the potential problem for others as well.

And yes, I do stand up for WCF as I have watched them make a lot of parts over the past five years and have seen very few returns of their parts. Someone once claimed that their headers had cracked and set them back to WCF; but they looked like they had been run over several times by a Hummer or maybe a HumVee.

Regards,

David

[This message has been edited by MountainHiBlue87GT (edited 07-07-2010).]

quote Originally posted by MountainHiBlue87GT: Stephen: Clearly, these are not the stainless version and I doubt stainless would have cracked like that. Given time, water, heat, vibration, some hard driving, bumpy roads, some slack in the drivetrain, any thing can break on a car. Given that the cracks are not at the welds, it is not a workmanship issue , but one of normal wear and tear. That is why OEM manifolds are often cast iron and not tubular. Interesting, that some one bought the headers from you; guess he knows or is a welder and did not see the ctracks as a major problem. I think this is a good exchange and the photos and explanation of time passed, location, and water leaking on a mild steel header should clear up the issue for others. I think if you lived in CA or AZ with almost no rain, the cracking might never have occurred. Who knows? My suggestion to go stainless may solve the potential problem for others as well. And yes, I do stand up for WCF as I have watched them make a lot of parts over the past five years and have seen very few returns of their parts. Someone once claimed that their headers had cracked and set them back to WCF; but they looked like they had been run over several times by a Hummer or maybe a HumVee. Regards, David

These headers where not the SS version that they offer now but the steel version that was offered when they where bought many years ago. But I do still see they offer the steel version so there is still a possibility of this issue happening to someone else. SS cracks also just go search on CGP about the SS ZZP plogs and the issues people have had with then cracking.

Yeah the crack is in an odd place so I am leaning torward that cheap steel was used to make the headers. This was also an issue with the ZZP plogs when they where first made in the steel version and had a high cracking rate. Rain, wind, fire, ect should not have played an issue with the area that these headers cracked in so I don't think that matters. I have run my car with my TOGS installed without the decklid many months with no issues caused by rain hitting them even when hot.

The crack on the headers I had was very fixable and I could have had it welded but that has nothing to do with the topic. I had no use for the headers being my DD is highly modded and I don't plan on doing anymore swaps anytime soon so I got them out of my way.

Like I said nothing against WCF or there products as they have done alot for the 3800 Fiero community and continue to do so. Just giving out my opionion on the topic with first hand experiance.....

Folks:

Stainless vs Mild Steel is a customer choice, just a matter of $ v how long you plan to own the car, etc.

It is not cheap steel, just what was resonablly available whenever the header was made --- years ago. After all, one could have bought stainless many years ago. What happens here is that we take these discussions from" what is" to what "perfectly should be" without knowledge of "what is" or "was" economically possible to sell then or now...........................?

Steven, your point is well taken, though. But what was your replacement after you sold the well worn headers?

Regards.

David

[This message has been edited by MountainHiBlue87GT (edited 07-08-2010).]

i just got my WCF stainless headers in the larger diamiter they make 1 5/8 i realy hope i dont have issues i paid a small fortune on them,i most likely will not ceramic them ratherlet them colour naturaly, stainless looks nice once heated and cooled and if i dont like it i will wrap them

Two sets of WCF 3800 swap headers cracked on me in both of my swaps. I'll see if I kept the pictures. I had flex and full poly mounts and dual dog bones on both swaps. I welded them up and sold them at the FF swap meet in 09'.

quote I mean, how much flow does a 3800 CC engine need?

When modded; more than the WCF headers will flow.
Once you put mods on that engine the exhaust becomes a critical factor to power. Thats why most of the 3800SC owners who are serious about power run a 3" exhaust.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by MountainHiBlue87GT: It is interesting how if someone expresses a negative opinion about some product it soon becomes an automotive legend on this forum and is accepted as truth by a lot of people. No one has ever actually tested a WCF header against another header, I will bet you. ...... I mean, how much flow does a 3800 CC engine need? Regards, David

exactly. headers crack. not just WCF. this is because there are no (or few?) other options, everyone has them.

and - next - making sure the motor is well mounted, to not bounce & stress the pipes. the pipes are well mounted. and, when bolted down, are not pulling. when the y-pipe is put on - it should not be pulling or pushing the manifolds. it should "just be". the flex joint should flex.

quote Originally posted by MountainHiBlue87GT: And yes, I do stand up for WCF as I have watched them make a lot of parts over the past five years and have seen very few returns of their parts. Someone once claimed that their headers had cracked and set them back to WCF; but they looked like they had been run over several times by a Hummer or maybe a HumVee.

My buddies WCF headers for his 2.8 cracked so he called Chris just to let him know that it happened. Chris ended up telling him that he must have mounted the exhaust wrong, it was his fault, and everything else to stop him from returning the headers. That pissed my buddy off because he was just trying to make a suggestion for improvement so it wouldn't happen to the next guy, he wasn't trying to send them back. He was going to order another set but ended up using Trueleo headers that he loves.

My experience was that Chris didn't want to refund my money when he was a month late shipping my item and kept trying to push me that he could have it shipped that week. No thank you. If you can't get it out in a month, you can't get it out in one more week. The brake hubs I ordered were good but again took way too long to get. The firewall liner is listed as one nice clean piece but it was cut up into about 4 parts and looks cheap with all the gaps at the cuts.

I don't doubt that Chris has very few returns, but I don't think all of that is because his product is perfect. From my personal experience I feel that it is more likely he fights tooth and nail to stop you from returning it...

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-Brian

My 87 GT Poly Suspension Upgrade (all pics) thread
Removing the roof panel

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: exactly. headers crack. not just WCF. this is because there are no (or few?) other options, everyone has them. and - next - making sure the motor is well mounted, to not bounce & stress the pipes. the pipes are well mounted. and, when bolted down, are not pulling. when the y-pipe is put on - it should not be pulling or pushing the manifolds. it should "just be". the flex joint should flex.

I dont think I have ever seen a cracked Wbody header, and they have been shipping directly from china for years and years now.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I dont think I have ever seen a cracked Wbody header, and they have been shipping directly from china for years and years now.

in a Fiero? never heard of these.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware:

Looks like a crack that COULD have been created by stress caused by heat expansion and contraction of metal in a case where no expansion joint was used in the Y-pipe/crossover pipe. Pipes grow and shrink in length by a significant amount when they are heated and cool. When I have a customer come to me to have me do a swap using the WCF headers and Y-pipe, I've started adding an expansion joint to the Y-pipe.

I can't tell you how many times I've installed a set of WCF headers and their untouched y-pipe (w/ no expansion joint) in the past and the Y-pipe ended up being too short to reach the rear header, and it didn't line up with the flange on the header correctly either. The expansion joint I add corrects this issue and gives the Y-pipe room to grow and shrink with temperature changes.

WCF: You MAY want to consider adding an expansion joint to your Y-pipes. GM uses one on all of their crossovers these days for good reason. Just a suggestion.

-ryan


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7+ years on this same swap -- NO engine or transmission failures...

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 11-24-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: in a Fiero? never heard of these.

fiero or one of the countless grand prix they have been installed in.