Should I be concerned about the fact that my front upper replacement ball joints have a nylon lock nut rather than a castellated nut like everything else in the suspension? It seems weird to me, I have NO idea how this can possibly be safe. I'm debating whether or not I should drill it out myself...
Nylocs are iffy. You don't need a castellated nut though, you can buy prevailing torque nuts (steel lock nuts that have a crimped or deformed top thread) and they're just as good as castellated nuts as long as you remember to measure the torque it takes to turn the nut before it seats, and add that amount to the specified final torque value. For example, let's say it take 10 lbft to turn the nut once the top thread has engaged the stud, in this case the upper ball joint nut is supposed to be installed with 35 lbft of torque, well then you need to apply 10 + 35 = 45 lbft of torque to get it right.
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06:39 PM
Gandalf Member
Posts: 647 From: Stockport, England Registered: May 2009
I doubt you'll find nylocks as original equipment used by North American car manufacturers on critical components... they all use steel prevailing torque nuts. If you decide to use the nylocks, just remember that they're not intended to be torqued more than once or twice before they lose their effectiveness at locking.
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07:30 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24789 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Thanks Guys... yeah, damn... I'm having a hard time with this.
I may just order a set from Rodney Dickman. I don't think I have the right drill bit needed to make my own hole. I can always re-use the castellated nut from the original I took off...
It's just such a critical part, you know? Last thing I want to do is worry that like 2 years down the line I'm cruising and my steering knuckle flys off.
A 1/8" bit, and some safety wire work wonders. Very cheap safety fix. I recheck my suspension every spring, and I am thinking of just wire tieing evrything this winter so I do not have to worry.
Being an incredibly anal person, if my new balljoints came with nylock nuts, I'd end up returning them.. I'd consider them poor quality and I'd be concerned where else they cut corners.
Edit: I see you mentioning Rodneys. I liked them the best. I had a set of Moog before his, and the boots failed within a few months. Very thin and poor quality. I replaced them with Rodney's and have had zero problems. His also had a castle nut (as did OEM). Personally, I would really consider getting a better set then you have.
[This message has been edited by smartaxel (edited 08-26-2010).]
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08:26 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24789 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
Being an incredibly anal person, if my new balljoints came with nylock nuts, I'd end up returning them.. I'd consider them poor quality and I'd be concerned where else they cut corners.
I guess they don't feel like it's necessary because the nut is likely never under any stress. When the car is on it's wheels, the upper control arm is just kind of there to make sure the steering knuckle stays verticle. I suppose though that if you ever catch air... hah? that it would put significant stress on the nut.
I figure GM is a very cheap company and always trying to save a dime. If they still spend the extra for castle nuts, I just can't help but think that is the best approach. I have never seen a nylock nut on any of my current GM vehicles. I really wouldn't want some chinese company trying to save money and re-engineer a product that originally lasted 20+ years. Just my opinion (I'm a fairly opinionated guy), but for the few bucks difference, I think I'd trust something that uses higher quality parts. Also, some plastic becomes brittle and sometimes shrinks a bit. I am not sure about nylon, but would you trust that nylock nut to still hold tight 10 years from now?
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08:42 PM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24789 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
I figure GM is a very cheap company and always trying to save a dime. If they still spend the extra for castle nuts, I just can't help but think that is the best approach. I have never seen a nylock nut on any of my current GM vehicles. I really wouldn't want some chinese company trying to save money and re-engineer a product that originally lasted 20+ years. Just my opinion (I'm a fairly opinionated guy), but for the few bucks difference, I think I'd trust something that uses higher quality parts. Also, some plastic becomes brittle and sometimes shrinks a bit. I am not sure about nylon, but would you trust that nylock nut to still hold tight 10 years from now?
Ugh... damnit... you just cost me $50 bucks.
But now, how do I get rid of the old ones? I wouldn't feel right selling this crap on eBay thinking it might end up killing someone?
i havent had any problems with nylocks .considering you need a big hammer and a fork seperator to get the ball joint out of the spindle i am not to worried about the type of nut .the torque specs are quite high on these nuts as well .every time i buy a ball joint these days , you never know what you are going to get .the replacement upper is held to the A arm with the same type of bolt .if it lets go you are in the same pickle as well .
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11:20 PM
PFF
System Bot
Aug 27th, 2010
Intel Member
Posts: 752 From: Helsingborg, Sweden Registered: May 2002
i havent had any problems with nylocks .considering you need a big hammer and a fork seperator to get the ball joint out of the spindle i am not to worried about the type of nut .the torque specs are quite high on these nuts as well .every time i buy a ball joint these days , you never know what you are going to get .the replacement upper is held to the A arm with the same type of bolt .if it lets go you are in the same pickle as well .
Yeah, the only difference is that the ball joint comes in from the top. The two bolts holding the ball joint on are just there to keep it from moving around and allowing you to set the camber.
I just don't like that nut being a lock washer, I mean, even with thread locker, there's a lot of stress on it. There's NOTHING preventing that nut from really backing out.
If both nuts on the top came off, the ball joint still wouldn't seperate, but my camber would chance consitently... hah...
This argument really got me...
General Motors is cheap as hell. If they felt it necessary to put a castellated nut on the upper control arm bolt, then you've got to think they did it for a reason.
I would generally say that most replacement ball joints that get installed in cars, are just to keep the cars running for the later half of the car's life-span... not to last just as long as the originals did.
I honestly just don't know how I could in good concious sell these upper ball joints on eBay knowing how I feel about them. I guess it doesn't matter. I got an entire set for free from one of my buddies, and the second set came with an entire kit that I bought from the Fiero Store.
I THINK I'm going to try MAYBE drilling an eye-hole into one of them, and then use the hardened castellated nut from the one I took off. If I can do that, then I'll go that route. I really don't feel like spending $50 bucks.
That's the funny thing... it never works out how you plan when you restore a car. I bought like $6,000 in parts over the span of three to four years with the intent of restoring my Fiero. Even with every single part I have, I still end up finding things I want to replace as I get into it. I had thought maybe I'd just sand down my brake dust shields... but they weren't good enough. I ended up having to buy an entire set from the Fiero Store (really nice looking though).
I do a good deal of suspension/front end work and I've seen ball joints fail many times. Mostly, it's the lower ball joint. They don't fail because the nut came loose, they fall because the ball/socket wears so much that the ball will come out. Almost all new cars have ball joints and tie rod ends with no grease fittings, they are not designed to last forever, just long enough for the warranty to expire. The replacement joints usually have grease fittings on them but the quality of the joints varies greatly from Moog at the top end to Chinese junk at the low end. I've used Rodney's stuff, his are good quality Taiwan parts, there is a world of difference between Taiwan and China when it comes to parts. As for the style of nuts used, I've seen all the different styles and have not encountered any ball joints missing nuts. IMO, they all work well, it's the taper that keeps the ball joint on the knuckle, not the nut. About a week ago, I had an Accord towed to my shop, the driver front ball joint let go at 50 mph. Ripped the axle right out of the tripot and tore up the front fender pretty good. the ball joint shaft was still in the knuckle and it still had the nylok nut on it. Of course it was a sealed joint, no grease fitting. And what a B@#$% it was to get that apart. The shaft would not budge. Of course, you should use what you feel comfortable with but I haven't seen or heard about anyone I know having any issues with the nylok type nuts.
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09:55 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24789 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
I do a good deal of suspension/front end work and I've seen ball joints fail many times. Mostly, it's the lower ball joint. They don't fail because the nut came loose, they fall because the ball/socket wears so much that the ball will come out. Almost all new cars have ball joints and tie rod ends with no grease fittings, they are not designed to last forever, just long enough for the warranty to expire. The replacement joints usually have grease fittings on them but the quality of the joints varies greatly from Moog at the top end to Chinese junk at the low end. I've used Rodney's stuff, his are good quality Taiwan parts, there is a world of difference between Taiwan and China when it comes to parts. As for the style of nuts used, I've seen all the different styles and have not encountered any ball joints missing nuts. IMO, they all work well, it's the taper that keeps the ball joint on the knuckle, not the nut. About a week ago, I had an Accord towed to my shop, the driver front ball joint let go at 50 mph. Ripped the axle right out of the tripot and tore up the front fender pretty good. the ball joint shaft was still in the knuckle and it still had the nylok nut on it. Of course it was a sealed joint, no grease fitting. And what a B@#$% it was to get that apart. The shaft would not budge. Of course, you should use what you feel comfortable with but I haven't seen or heard about anyone I know having any issues with the nylok type nuts.
I just figured out what I'm going to do.
I'm going to weld a little metal loop onto the nut. I've got miles of safety wire, so I'll just attach the loop to the safety wire so the nut can't ever back out.
