I was surprised to find no quad 4 vs ectotec comparison thread so though I'd start one...

Specs against eachother (weight, etc)

performance potential

swap dificulty

so on...

there is no comparing the 2, the ecotec is so much better.

personal experiance the quad 4 is a nightmare to work on. nothing but a good boat ancore in my opinion

But the quad4 is an easier swap isn't it

Here you go
Turbo Ecotec:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/045570.html

Quad 4:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/103790.html
Specifically "Comealongway's" post

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Anything you can do with a Q4, you can do better with an Ecotec... except stick a magnet to the block.

Not so fast with the broom.....


"The Quad 4 was once hailed as the powerplant of the future, having the power of a V-8 while the effeciancy of a 4 cylinder. It turned out to be a problematic engine. Before GM worked out the issues with head-gaskets, the ignition system, and other misc. problems the engine had already earned a bad reputation. This is especially because of the single-overhead-cam version, which used a horrible amalgamation of parts and was the worst version of this engine ever made.

The shining redeption of the Quad 4 was its potential as a FWD performance powerplant. It helped Oldsmobile win many SCCA SOLO2 and ISMA competitions, and set a land speed record in the early 90's with the Oldsmobile Areotech. Many hot rodders and tuners thus choose to use the quad 4 because of its potential."


Doesn't this record still stand?

And the Cosworth DFV won a lot of races. That doesn't mean it's competitive with current engines.

The Ecotec has made over 1200 HP on production castings. There are parts in junk yards right now with which I could bolt together a direct injected turbo hybrid Ecotec with dual variable camshaft phasing.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-08-2010).]

the quad 4 came in some good varients (HO) but it is really an outdated motor .and there are no specific fiero adaptor kits anymore .it is also heavier than an ecotec because of the cast iron block .roger thelin makes adapter kits for the mounts and shift linkages .search "Thelin Sells " on the net .there are now stand alone wiring systems available , if you dont want to use a donor car .look up my swap in the construction zone .it is titled "Ecotec Swap " .i run a turbo 2.2 with 5 speed f 23 from a 2004 cavalier .the ecotec isnt for everyone , a 3800 SC would be easier for most people . the above quoted ecotec swap in a previous post is a great thread , but that car is still not on the road .

i have built both a turbo 97 z24 with a 2.4 twin cam (quad 4) and a 07 cobalt ls with a 2.2 eco. exact same turbo setup. the quad had much more power with lower boost. 12-15lb and alot better acceleration due to gearing of the transmission, BUT! even with forged internals 25 lbs of boost on the quad snapped a eagle connecting rod. blew the motor. removed the turbo setup and installed it on the eco. car has held up still currently running 18 lbs of boost daily and has seen 25 lbs on occasion. and literally beaten to hell. kid has been through 2 spec clutches in 2 years. ive always stood behind the quads because ive built a few up. but hands down the eco is WAY stronger and more reliable.

Still doesn't make the Q4 a loser.

I don't like the Q4 because when it was around I was a v6 man. The DOHC is just so much better.

Now the Ecotec is a whole different ball game. It is almost limitless for power potential and a reliable bottom end.
My latest Ecotec has variable valve timing and that 170 hp has muchos low end power and revs clean right up to 7000.

I must agree that the Ecotec is superior.

Arn

Whats better.. A flat head V8 or a LS7?

flathead looks cooler. lol.

quote Originally posted by Custom2M4: Whats better.. A flat head V8 or a LS7?

Depends what you value more, looks, simplicity, power, nostalgia...

I think the Q4 is a really cool motor and have driven both, Q4 is less refined by far more power in stock form (180 hp compared to 145 hp).

I had a 94 Beretta Z26 with the Q4 HO, had 236,000 miles on it and still ran really well. I think the Q4's bad rep came from earlier versions... and the later models have good reliability.

The Q4 doesn't have camshaft phasing but is otherwise a pretty modern powerplant - DOHC, 4 valves, coil-on-plug ignition, timing chains - and ran clean enough to not even need a traditional PCV system, or EGR.

Its like saying what is better, a Northstar or a F458 Ferrari V8

I'd say it's the ecotech hands down. It's such a strong engine that when Ariel started selling the Atom here in the States, they decided to ditch the VTEC in favor of it. And now, they have a 500hp version. It's nice, but it's not like it needs that much grunt. It's already the fastest accelerating car in the world.

Some amazing things have been done wth the Ecotec so its proven its versatility. Its also lightweight and many performance parts are available. If I wanted a four the Q4 is old tech at this point and I would lean toward more a current up to date engine .

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Depends what you want from the car. Performance wise the ecotec is probably the way to go.
Personally, I'm not interested in turning the Fiero into a modern car. If that's what I wanted I'd probably just sell it and look for a used Solstice or something.
Putting an ecotec into a 25yr old Fiero isn't much more appealing to me than putting an LS7 into a 30's Ford. Yeah I know that's overstating it a bit.

It would be interesting to put a Quad-4 in an 88 coupe with 5spd, as that represents the car's potential if things had worked out a bit differently. It was meant to be a 4 cylinder sport coupe, but GM didn't have an appropriate engine for the car until the same time they were deciding to kill it off. It's a sad thing that the Q4 and Fiero missed each other.

A Q4 would be alot easier to swap without a doubt.

The ECU's are not tied to theft deterants, fairly cheaply programmed for custom setups, bolt natively to a different bellhousing, but mostly the same getrag 282 5speed.

Swap a fiero shift shaft into a Quad bell housing'd 282 5speed, and it will bolt in like stock, mounts and all. mod one motor mount to hold the motor up in the air and you are good to go.

If you want to make more than 300hp... start looking ecotec.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: A Q4 would be alot easier to swap without a doubt. The ECU's are not tied to theft deterants, fairly cheaply programmed for custom setups, bolt natively to a different bellhousing, but mostly the same getrag 282 5speed. Swap a fiero shift shaft into a Quad bell housing'd 282 5speed, and it will bolt in like stock, mounts and all. mod one motor mount to hold the motor up in the air and you are good to go. If you want to make more than 300hp... start looking ecotec.

Darn few people will ever attempt getting 500-700 HP out of a 4 banger for the street. 220-240 HP makes a wicked little Fiero and the Q4 would be easier to do.

I dont know where you guys are getting you ecotec HP raitings but you way off in left field did some research and the best one i found is a drag engine putting out 1100 HP with 90 lbs boost on alky turning 14000 rpm and idles at 3000 wont run idling any lower the best on pump gas was 394 hp 16 lbs boost and turning at 9000 rpm small engines make no HP numbers at low RPM and for a car to be driven on the streel you do not want to idle at 2000 rpm motor just wont last

PS the 1100 hp ecotec is GM motor sports drag engine costing 60 thousand dollars to build with titanium rods custom stroked micro groung steel crank full knife edged Hy silicone aluminum block and billit head billit pistons with 2 rings dry sump oil system and much more and would never run on the street.

the engine needs to be rebuilt every event just to keep it running

[This message has been edited by bubbajoexxx (edited 12-10-2010).]

quote Originally posted by bubbajoexxx: I dont know where you guys are getting you ecotec HP raitings but you way off in left field did some research and the best one i found is a drag engine putting out 1100 HP with 90 lbs boost on alky turning 14000 rpm and idles at 3000 wont run idling any lower the best on pump gas was 394 hp 16 lbs boost and turning at 9000 rpm small engines make no HP numbers at low RPM and for a car to be driven on the streel you do not want to idle at 2000 rpm motor just wont last PS the 1100 hp ecotec is GM motor sports drag engine costing 60 thousand dollars to build with titanium rods custom stroked micro groung steel crank full knife edged Hy silicone aluminum block and billit head billit pistons with 2 rings dry sump oil system and much more and would never run on the street. the engine needs to be rebuilt every event just to keep it running

Last I read, it was a stock block and head that made those numbers. Head had grooves put in it for rings to handle the high boost and a port job was all that they did to those stock pieces. GM was out to make a point by using the stock pieces. And, that drag engine was de-stroked to 2 litres, which is the displacment limit in the class they raced.

quote Originally posted by AquaHusky: Last I read, it was a stock block and head that made those numbers. Head had grooves put in it for rings to handle the high boost and a port job was all that they did to those stock pieces. GM was out to make a point by using the stock pieces. And, that drag engine was de-stroked to 2 litres, which is the displacment limit in the class they raced.

QUOTE from the testing and build

GM Racing Ecotec Engine - Birth Of The Ultimate Import Fighter?

The super-modified Ecotec was able to achieve a reliable 750 hp on 24 psi of boost at 9000 rpm with 10:1 compression and an unspecified fuel with extremely high octane and excellent heat of vaporization characteristics. But as Bothwell's team pushed power beyond the 750-plus range, GM Racing began to encounter such extreme cylinder pressures and thermal expansion that the thin-wall stock cylinder sleeves and support structure began to warp and go out of round, split. Cylinder-piston scuffing became a problem.


thats when GM made the special block and heads avalable for team gm racing the new race engines have nothing in common with the stock blocks \

and also in the artical the stock parts are only good to 282 HP before you have rod colapse as tested (rods begin to explode ) then you need forged rods and pistons to make it to 350 hp beyond 350 it becomes to expesive to mod the head and valvetrain

and the engine was destroked to creat a square bore engine to acomidate the large turbo

[This message has been edited by bubbajoexxx (edited 12-10-2010).]

Now I really want one! lol

bubbajoe is correct about the racing block and heads needed to go the over 1000 hp route .as with any high HP sleeved aluminum block , the cylinders will start to " walk " under extreme pressures .with a honda B engine , the simple solution is a forged aluminum girdle that fills the space at the top of the block .GM did not leave enough room for a girdle to fit in to the 2.2 so the all out race engine required a better block .that block was available to the public for around 2000.00 .there is also a better cylinder head casting that was used and is also available to the public .the stock blocks will handle over 500 HP reliably as long as you stay away from nitrous . the weak points in the 2.2 are the pistons first then the connecting rods .the pistons have weak top ring lands and the rods are powdered metal .the 282 HP limit was done by pumping nitrous in to a 2.2 on a dyno until the con rods broke .there are stock turbo 2.2's running over 300 HP though because a turbo is easier on the rods .i have put 50000 KM on my 2.2 with a 16G turbo @ 11 psi and no ill effects .to do this you need a 6:1 FMU , 32 LB + injectors , water meth injection and HP tuners .the water meth is a must have .a lot of people put on their turbo kits and say they will get water meth later and they shatter a piston within a few thousand miles .the pistons that came out of my engine are undamaged except for where some unknown debris made it into #2 cylinder and left some scratches .i am in the process of putting in wiseco forged pistons and eagle forged rods into my engine right now .then the boost is going to go up to 15 or so for the street , and i dont fore see any problems .but if i was starting over , this is the setup i would do :
2.0 LSJ engine with forged pistons swapped in (comes stock with forged crank and rods )
toss the supercharger and run a 20G turbo
Vulcan turbo manifold and intake
water meth ,6:1 FMU ,HP tuners and probably 42 LB injectors
my wiring and BCM and ECU that i am using now from a 2004 cavalier .up until 2007 , the 2.0 used the same crank trigger that i have on my 2.2 .
Jason Whitfield built a 2.2 with over the counter parts that puts out 1000 HP .see Hot Compact & imports magazine , feb 2007 .no mention of costs though .this car was supposedly driven on the street .
i also run the stock 10:1 compression ratio . with a modern computer controlled engine and KR controls built in , no need for a lower CR and turbo lag is non existent .

the only trouble with 1000 + hp is the rpm they run at makes them good for 3 runs then they need a full tear down to inspect all the pistons and rods and valve train as the 1000 + hp engines are all running 14000 rpm limit with 8000 rpm launches and an idle speed of 3000 rpm not a streetable engine and the 90 pound boost 1100 hp drag engine runs 5.5 :1 compression ratio
at 90 lbs boost the reason for the lower combustion ratio is to make room in the cylinder for the mass of fuel going into the engine any higher would cause the piston and rods to fail from hydraulicing a piston at 14000 rpm fuel delivery is about 2 gallons per 1/4 mile

boost levels for Jason Whitfields 2.2 ecotec cobalt : 1st gear =14psi = 540 hp
2nd gear =21 psi=700 hp
3rd gear=30-35 psi = ~ 1000 hp
1/4 mile with the 3 speed auto driving the front wheels is 9 seconds .the boost is controlled with a trick CO2 pressurized controller that is fully adjustable .so dial it back and take it to the grocery store without any problems .

quote Originally posted by bubbajoexxx: the only trouble with 1000 + hp is the rpm they run at makes them good for 3 runs then they need a full tear down to inspect all the pistons and rods and valve train as the 1000 + hp engines are all running 14000 rpm limit with 8000 rpm launches and an idle speed of 3000 rpm not a streetable engine and the 90 pound boost 1100 hp drag engine runs 5.5 :1 compression ratio at 90 lbs boost the reason for the lower combustion ratio is to make room in the cylinder for the mass of fuel going into the engine any higher would cause the piston and rods to fail from hydraulicing a piston at 14000 rpm fuel delivery is about 2 gallons per 1/4 mile

You're extremely confused. Why don't you post the link where you supposedly read all this?

actually i think he is only a little confused .top fuelers have to be torn down every third run but they produce about 3500 hp and have nothing to do with the real real world and i love them all...don g et all FTW

Ok so i have had a Q4 stock at (180hp) a set of W41 cams rated on stock bottom end at (190hp) and just sold my set of (HG2 cams) specs are .430 lift and 224 duration,on stock bottom end your looking prob (200hp) just by switching out cams. pretty nice for being old tech-knowledgy. Now as for performance on the Q4 don't bash if you don't know the story there are people on (here) and around that make good power from a Q4 As to that i'll link some pic's and vids and site's to such. As for eco i don't think it would be a bad swap at all and would love to have one for a daily driver good light weight power plant and part (aftermarket) very available for them. There are a ton of Q4's in the junk just like a ton of eco's to, but for a stock replacement the Q4 would most likely be cheaper due to it being old tech=knowledgy.

Q4 info and pics:

(556Whp/413ft/lbs Qt) Q4 power http://www.quad4forums.com/...howthread.php?t=8273
I think shawn make 300hp once he was finished with his s/c'd m90 Q4 http://s2.webstarts.com/quadper4mance/
Some of you guys might know this guy lol username say's it all http://www.quad4forums.com/...owthread.php?t=18988
http://www.quad4forums.com/...owthread.php?t=15402
http://www.quad4forums.com/...howthread.php?t=1581 -------- & link to PFF also https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...041015-1-042302.html

quote Originally posted by wftb: actually i think he is only a little confused .top fuelers have to be torn down every third run but they produce about 3500 hp and have nothing to do with the real real world and i love them all...don g et all FTW

Top Fuel engines get a tear down EVERY run.
Inability to distinguish between Top Fuel and Ecotec = extremely confused.

If presented with a choice of an engine out of production for more then a decade and one that is currently in production and the base engine in several brands of vehicles on more then one continent.

I think I'll go with the later.

But with all the miseries of owning a orphan car, keeping obsolete motors running just adds to fun.

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yellow 88 GT, not stock
white 88 notchie, 4 banger

one good thing about Q4's is that performance parts are available fairly cheap right now as they are being cleared out .i was looking for an intake manifold from a 2.4L ecotec and i found a ton of cheap Q4 parts .couldnt find an ecotec manifold though .the 2.4L ecotec manifold flows a lot better than the 2.2 intake and gives an easy 15 HP gain for a 2.2 .

The Quad 4 was built as a performance engine from day one. As 4 cylinder engines go, it has a HUGE bore (93 mm). Big valves and port flow go along with that. It can make good power, both all motor and with boost.

However, it is mechanically complex, has an iron block, fixed cam timing and now limited aftermarket support.

The Ecotec is mechanically simpler, has an aluminum block, variable cam phasing available, direct injection available, hybrid capabilities, and huge aftermarket support.
It's drawbacks are that it has a smaller bore, smaller valves and smaller ports. It's not a good powerplant for all motor use, but has been demonstrated to be capable of tremendous power boosted.

quote Originally posted by wftb: boost levels for Jason Whitfields 2.2 ecotec cobalt : 1st gear =14psi = 540 hp 2nd gear =21 psi=700 hp 3rd gear=30-35 psi = ~ 1000 hp 1/4 mile with the 3 speed auto driving the front wheels is 9 seconds .the boost is controlled with a trick CO2 pressurized controller that is fully adjustable .so dial it back and take it to the grocery store without any problems .

with controlled boost your not running 1000 HP on the street try run that at full boast on the street and it would un streetable the 1100 hp ecotec rail dragster is all out alky engine and could not be used as a street engine as it has no low end torque and needs the high rpm to generate its max torque thus 8000 rpm launch and 3000 rpm just to idle


as for most of the dyno runs i have seen the wheel dyno is inacurate I witnessed a test of an engine dynoed on a water brake engine dyno output was 540hp they installed the engine in the chassie then put it on a chassie dyno and got a rear wheel hp rating of 680 HP and that is faulse they then removed the engine and put it back on the engine dyno and still only had 540 hp chassie dynos are very inacurate

Go re-read, dude: http://www.turbomagazine.co...ec_engine/index.html

Don Nase Jr of NJ.
Ecotec powered and 207 mph@ 6.42 sec in the 1/4 mile. You may be able to get this much power from an Ecotec but it would not be streetable

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "