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My 4T60 install in an 88 Formula by Alex4mula
Started on: 05-14-2008 03:02 PM
Replies: 122
Last post by: Knight on 07-21-2011 01:58 AM
Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-14-2008 03:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post
Going over this now so decided to document it and mainly to show the key issues with this swap in an 88 cradle. I got an AC Delco remanufactured 4t60 unit from a forum member over a year ago and finally got the time to finish this car that has been sitting over 2 yrs (see swap details here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...1/HTML/056333.html ) For the trany brackets I went the easy way and ordered them from www.fieroaddiction.com . I ordered both, trany and shifter brackets. The time this will save me is well worth the price. For axles I went with NAPA p/n 95-9178 and 95-9208. Thanks to mswenson289 for that info. These two sites are very helpful (http://snowcloude.com/TurboFiero/FIERO-4T60.html,http://spacecoastfieros.com/tech/440-4T60/index.html) plus several other miscellaneous threads here.
This is how I started. My first problem which I knew is the Truleo intake is so tall that I have to lift the car more to clear it. I have to mention that this is one of the first units and it will NOT clear the notchback hood. Still deciding if sending back for repair or add a scoop



------------------

Red: TPI V8 + 6-Speed Yellow: Nitrous 3.4 + 4 speed Auto
304rwHP/366rwTQ

[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 05-22-2008).]

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Report this Post05-14-2008 03:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for intlcutlassSend a Private Message to intlcutlassDirect Link to This Post
Somebody stole your EGR....

Seriously though..... I am looking to swap an automatic in place of my getrag , so I'll be watching this , props to ya.
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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-14-2008 04:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post
Here are the two transmissions side by side. I think you can tell which one is the 4T60. Both are much more heavier than a Getrag but the 4T60 is even more. I know it is heavier then the F40 for sure too.






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Report this Post05-14-2008 04:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
Wow!
That's a big-azz tranny!

Watching this thread with interest.

------------------
Raydar
88 4.9 Formula IMSA Fasback..........................88 3.4 coupe -soon to be something other than red

Read Nealz Nuze! Praise the Lowered!

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Report this Post05-14-2008 04:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fiero STSSend a Private Message to Fiero STSDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

Wow!
That's a big-azz tranny!



Thats nothing compaired to a 4t80e
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Report this Post05-14-2008 04:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2farnorthSend a Private Message to 2farnorthDirect Link to This Post
That 4t60 appears to have the digital speed sensor that supposedly won't work with the Fiero system. Will it void the warranty to do the necessary swap to the earlier speed sensor? I'm asking 'cause I've got basically the same tranny setting in my shed right now waiting to be put in my coupe.
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Report this Post05-14-2008 05:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GKDINCSend a Private Message to GKDINCDirect Link to This Post
This is good info, keep the pic's comeing. I'd like to see the tranny cable bracket and lever mounted when you get to that point. And how did the transmission mounts work out? I'm thinking of installing one of these trannys in the v-8 car.
Good Luck
Gary

[This message has been edited by GKDINC (edited 05-14-2008).]

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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-14-2008 07:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post
The brackets worked perfectly! More on that later. Here are the axles side by side comparison. Basically the 4t60 ones are just a little shorter.



Passenger side:


Driver side:
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Report this Post05-14-2008 11:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mswenson289Send a Private Message to mswenson289Direct Link to This Post
If doing the 7730 ECM conversion the digital VSS will work fine nothing to change.
Mike
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Report this Post05-14-2008 11:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XanthSend a Private Message to XanthDirect Link to This Post
Good thread

I plan on doing exactly this to my Formula.
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Report this Post05-15-2008 01:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mrfieroSend a Private Message to mrfieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Xanth:

Good thread

I plan on doing exactly this to my Formula.



Yep.....this is probably the single best thing you could do to an automatic V-6 Fiero.......the jump in fuel economy will pay for the swap in no time. I know Alex's Formula is not stock, but a stock V-6 auto Fiero will see an almost 50% increase in fuel economy (from low to mid 20's up to low to mid 30's).....I think it's a no brainer.
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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-15-2008 08:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post
Hey, any fuel milage improvement would be awesome these days. Here are the brackets and shifter. They fit perfectly and there is no need to do any modification to the cradle.

Front:


Rear:


Shifter:
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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-15-2008 11:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post

Alex4mula

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Another thing I will do is use some Rodney poly mounts that I took out of the V8 when I went solid there. This is how the stock mounts allow movement (dog bone disconnected of course).

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Report this Post05-15-2008 01:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CarrluvrSend a Private Message to CarrluvrDirect Link to This Post
This is a great thread so far. One question are those axles the same one to be used on a 4t60e tranny?
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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-15-2008 02:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Carrluvr:

This is a great thread so far. One question are those axles the same one to be used on a 4t60e tranny?


Don't know because I only researched the 4t60. I think I remember reading that the 60e or 65e was different but I may be wrong.
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Report this Post05-15-2008 06:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeDirect Link to This Post
THANK YOU for doing this Alex!
Keep the photos and descriptions coming.
I'll probably be right behind you in doing this same swap with my new 3.4
This sort of photo step-by-step is precisely what I needed.
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Report this Post05-15-2008 06:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeDirect Link to This Post

randye

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It looks like you can do this swap by simply dropping the cradle and leaving it under the car without even rolling it out?

I was thinking it might even be possible to do by even just removing the rear cradle bolts and swinging the cradle down if I had all the intakes off the engine....
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Report this Post05-15-2008 07:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LilchiefSend a Private Message to LilchiefDirect Link to This Post
Alex : Nice write up. I like the mount adapters you got. I custom made my without having to cut the cradle. You'll have to let us know if you can shift it into 1st, mine does. Next we need to add another number to the shifter indicator PRND321. Which gear ratio did you go with? Mines a 3.42, love it and getting 30 mpg driving around here in the country, no city or interstate driving. Keep us posted

------------------

85 GT 3.4
14.9 @ 90 1.9 60' Old TH125/3.06
Unknown New 4T60/3.42

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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-16-2008 09:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post
I don't know for sure but who sold it to me told me it was a 3.33 or something like that. Randy, I wouldn't do this with tha cradle swing. You will see why soon.
Had a lot of progress yesterday. I'm running behind here so let me show more. These below are the speed governors. Top is the TH125 and bottom the 4t60 I have. On a recent trip to the yard ALL 4t60s I saw were like this digital version. I will install the trany like that and hope the ECM runs ok with the VSS wire disconnected. What will not work with that? I just want to put the car on the ground and later on I'll get the right one which looks like the TH125 one but with a taller cap.
TH125



4t60


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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-16-2008 10:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post

Alex4mula

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Now to some little issues. On the 3.4 block you have to grind the lower right corner of the block (opposite to starter) to fit the TH125. For the 4T60 I had to grind like 1/4" more. After I did that the trany mated to the block with no problems. I said I used some Rodney's Poly mounts and those gave me some big grief just like they did with my V8. The rear one (trunk) kind of aligned but the front one did not by about 1/2". I had to dismantle the whole mount, attach the bracket and then force it into place. The engine sits differently and soon I'll show you why. Also I'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with the brackets because I had the same issue with the V8 that worked fine originally with stock mounts. The good thing is that the engine feels like it is solid mounted with no rocking at all (video to come).
This is the rear mount and the good thing is that the trany cleared the cradle by a lot. I heard this might be a problem in pre-88 I think.




This is the front one. Here you can see four possible problem areas. First the coolant pipe didn't aligned properly. Later on I was able to attach it at that point but the top bolt was off. No big deal because it was tight. Also note that I have FOCOA headers, which create different problems than stock manifolds. The trany vacuum canister gets very close (touching here) but at the end it was ok. You will see later. My O2 sensor also gets close but then again I can still remove it. Finally the TC connector wire is not long enough but that will be resolved later.






This is the new driver side axle which fits perfectly.


more to come soon...

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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-16-2008 10:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post

Alex4mula

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Question if anyone knows, when I took the plastic plug that was covering the trany vacuum canister hole this lilttle piston was loose in it. Does anyone knows if I have to put it back and push the canister against it? I didn't try because the canister itself has its plunger that already was pushing a little. But I have no clue if I need it or not.

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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-16-2008 10:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post
Another very different area of the 4t60 are the trans cooler lines. On the 4t60 the come out at the bottom. Below is a comparison of both. I will soon address this.

TH125


4t60

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Report this Post05-16-2008 09:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BrewCheeseSend a Private Message to BrewCheeseDirect Link to This Post
Great write up Alex!

Dont know if your aware or not but theres a newer style vaccum modulator thats not only a lot smaller but also adjustable.

Example: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...dZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

I also had a very hard time trying to find the right govener cover, after months of looking I finally found one on a 85 Olds Cierra. I will probobly go to the yard tommarow...I'l keep my eyes open for one.

Jason
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Report this Post05-16-2008 10:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mswenson289Send a Private Message to mswenson289Direct Link to This Post
The smaller vacuum modulator is a must, When I had my tranny rebuilt I requested it. On the VSS problem I left the digital and wired to the 7730 on the output of the 7730 I used the Speedometer Signal Converter Module from FieroAddiction http://www.fieroaddiction.c...ath=2&products_id=12 .There are schematics to build it yourself in numerous spots on the web. I went ahead and ordered it since I was` getting the shifter bracket from him anyway. If not using the 7730 I don't see why this would not work inline prior to the speedo, alot faster solution than looking everywhere for the other output, seems I read somewhere that the governor was part of the assy and you needed to be careful to get the proper weights. With it on blocks and turning the wheels I get speedo action so at this point I assume all well. Will know tomorrow when I finally get to road test.
Mike
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Report this Post05-17-2008 07:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BrewCheeseSend a Private Message to BrewCheeseDirect Link to This Post
The govener is weighted in comparison to the weight of the car....so if you want that to be right you will need to use the one out of your fiero and then you might possibly need to adjust the gears on it to your final drive ratio. If your going from a 3.33 in your 125 to a 3.33 in your 4t60 you wont need to change anything. From what ive heard though the weights dont make that much difference though. (?)

Jason
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Report this Post05-17-2008 09:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreDirect Link to This Post
I think Governor calibration is tuned with springs usually. If it's a little off it's not usually a huge problem. If you take a trans from a mini van it could be as the mini van weight is about twice that of the Fiero.

Any trans shop can calibrate the governor. Let them do it if this need playing with. If you mess this up the trans will never shift right. (The trike made from a Fiero had to have this done since the weight dropped on the finished vehicle by allot.)

So as I'm reading all this, obviously the mount brackets are different but the shifter and axle config is the same for all years isn't it? (There's so many pages/threads about this it gets a bit confusing even for me.)

Speedo calibration is not affected by final drive ratio. Last I looked, The governor/sender are reading off the differential.

I like the shifter bracket. Nice and clean. It's the item that was keeping me from doing this. BTW the 4T60 can run with the cast L4. According to some stuff I've seen from GM, it was designed with the L4 in mind as well. Tho I don't know if it was ever offered with it.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 05-17-2008).]

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Report this Post05-17-2008 01:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ErikSend a Private Message to ErikDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fiero STS:


Thats nothing compaired to a 4t80e


agreed ..the 4t80 e is a bloated pig ..weighs about 350 lbs ..hmmm I'll take a 90 lb Muncie 4 speed or Getrag please ...
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Report this Post05-17-2008 06:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreDirect Link to This Post
The correct speedo sensor housing is hard to find?

Is there a signal converter for getting the pulses directly to a Fiero type speedo? The one at FA is only for ones you are going to run thru the ECM first what isn't an option for most people that are looking at this.
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Report this Post05-18-2008 02:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BrewCheeseSend a Private Message to BrewCheeseDirect Link to This Post
The correct speedo housing can be a little bit of a challenge to find. I found another one yesterday on a 87 chevrolet Celebrity V6. I noticed that all the 88 Celebrity's had the pulse type and all the 87 4cyl had a TH125 in them. One problem is that a lot of junkyards by me dont have very many mid 80's cars anymore and if they get them they dont keep them very long.

Cars if found the right Speedo cover on:
85-86 Olsmobile Cutlass Ciera- V6
87 Chevrolet Celebrity- V6
88 Buick Centry Limited- V6

[This message has been edited by BrewCheese (edited 06-21-2008).]

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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-18-2008 10:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post
BrewCheese; sent you a PM!
I'm already done but car is still up (old tuning issues). Tomorrow will keep posting the details and hurdles of the swap. Stay tuned
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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-19-2008 01:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post
Let me continue. These two items I thought were going to be difficult and they were among the easiest. The dip stick is the stick TH125 one and I only had to reorient it and reweld the little bracket. The top came out still at a good place to take it off. For the trany mount to the block I used one of the old TH125 trany mounts and the TH125 block mount to build this bracket. I think it is strong enough for its purpose. That side axle went in perfect too. Here are the pictures.








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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-19-2008 02:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post

Alex4mula

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Finally I just went and bought an adjustable vacuum regulator. I made the mistake of installing the little piston in the picture backwards and took me one hour to take it off So shown is the correct orientation. Also the coolant pipe was in the way (yes I know you told me!) to take the big one out so you better get this one from the get go. I got it at Autozone for about $13 and the box has the PN. I used one of the bottom TB vacuum pipes to get the vacuum signal.





Next was the TC rewiring. This was very easy. I went to the yard and bought the correct 5 pin connector. As you can see the Fiero one has only two wires on positions A and D. As you can see the 5 pin one has the same exact color wires at positions A and D so it is an easy swap. I tried to just replace the pins but my tool didn't work so I just spliced them. Maybe with more time and right tool you can make it look stock

TH125



New 5 pin


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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-19-2008 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post

Alex4mula

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Now this one really surprised me. I thought it was going to be easy and it was one of the more difficult items. I was thinking on using the TH125 lines and just bending them to reconnect the hoses. But they are smaller. The 4T60 uses 3/8" lines. I went to the yard and took them off from a 90s Lumina. Very messy Then I had to bend them to redirect them more or less to the stock Fiero hard lines. That took me more than about 20 trials for each one! Think of lying down under car, check, mark bend, stand up, go to vice, bend line, go back and lie down, check again and repeat process. Then had to find adapters to adapt the bigger hose (3/8") to the smaller Fiero pipe. Oh well. At the end it all worked ok. Finally there is a picture of the shifter cable with the tab up to adjust the length which I had to do. Needed to be a tad longer. No problem there. It can find all gears






From teh top



[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 05-19-2008).]

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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-19-2008 02:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post

Alex4mula

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Now do you remember what I said about the new poly mounts above? Well guess what moved? The whole engine. Look at the dog bone position now. The engine tilted a little towards the front. But this thing is so solid now that it feels like it doesn't need that dog bone anymore. Maybe I get an adjustable dog bone (maybe this is why it is sold...) or modify that bracket.


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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-19-2008 03:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post

Alex4mula

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Compare this one to video above. This thing feels solid mounted. What you see moving is the whole car!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjqnZ3AgrGk

[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 05-19-2008).]

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Kuta
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Report this Post05-19-2008 04:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KutaClick Here to visit Kuta's HomePageSend a Private Message to KutaDirect Link to This Post
That's correct,
(to quote rodney dickman)

"This adjustable dog bone offers 1/2" of adjustment in each direction. This is a must have if you are installing poly trans mounts and a poly motor mount .
Once you install poly trans mounts and a poly motor mount you will find the motor no longer has any movement and it is impossible to move it to get a stock length dog bone in. This adjustable dog bone allows you to install the poly mounts then adjust the dog bone to the required length.
Available in BLACK or RED poly bushings."
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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-19-2008 04:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Kuta:

That's correct,
(to quote rodney dickman)

"This adjustable dog bone offers 1/2" of adjustment in each direction. This is a must have if you are installing poly trans mounts and a poly motor mount .
Once you install poly trans mounts and a poly motor mount you will find the motor no longer has any movement and it is impossible to move it to get a stock length dog bone in. This adjustable dog bone allows you to install the poly mounts then adjust the dog bone to the required length.
Available in BLACK or RED poly bushings."


Ok. Back 3-4 yrs ago when I bought these mounts that was not mentioned. They were supposed to be a "stock" replacement. But I really like the solid feel of them. But not that they don't fit that well down under.
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Alex4mula
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Report this Post05-19-2008 08:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post

Alex4mula

7405 posts
Member since Dec 1999
So I was testing the gears with the engine running to see if it shifted 1-2-3 etc. Well, in the little time I tried it didn't shift and suddenly I hear this splash! What a fu^%^% mess I'm more pissed about the mess than anything else. It will take me more time to clean it all up than to replace the axle. This is very weird. Seems like the rubber ruptured. I don't know why. Nothing was touching. It is not at an extreme angle nor did I took it to anything close to high speed The axle seems ok. It seems like the rubber broke off at a seam or who knows.. Have you ever seen this? Oh well. At least they have lifetime warranty....




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randye
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Report this Post05-19-2008 09:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for randyeClick Here to visit randye's HomePageSend a Private Message to randyeDirect Link to This Post
A little duct tape and it will be fine!
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edhering
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Report this Post05-19-2008 10:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for edheringClick Here to visit edhering's HomePageSend a Private Message to edheringDirect Link to This Post
Looks like that boot was installed with a slight twist. Flex it a bit and it just came apart.

Oh well. Warranty. Though that doesn't cover the time you lost R&R the part OR cleaning up...

Ed
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