so after doing my own research on both the 3800 and newer 60degree engines, ive decided to go the unwritten path of the 3500 LX9 from an 04 Malibu. then to turbo it at a later date.
today i started ordering parts, as i do this swap i will try to document every penny i spend to get an accurate cost of the swap, and list the brands and what parts i needed to order. also, lots of pics as i do stuff :P its gona be a slow install due to lack of free time, but it will get done, end goal is a mid-12second turbo 3500
parts ordered, price, and brand/where from 3400 coils and module - $25 (local yard) engine 04 malibu 12k miles - $400 (local salvage yard) spec stage2+ clutch - 359 (from spec) Plenum TB Adapter - 55 (wot-tech) (or you can use a 00+ 3400 upper plenum and port match it to the 3500 lower) 7x external crank trigger - 155 (wot-tech) 24x crank sensor - $45 (standard motor products pc61) ecu from 98venture van(as per darth) (yard grab, dont remember exectly, under $20) 3400 balancer with 24x wheel - $48 (dorman from work) 88 fiero neutral flywheel - $46 (rhinopac from work) ac-delete bracket(for now) - $55 3400 throttlebody (56mm) -----------------------------------------------------------\ 3400 fuel rail (for return style system rather then returnless) ------> $85 3500 alternator ----------------------------------/ pigtails - ecu, ICM, CPS(both), IAC, TPS. --------------------------------/ 3400 style manifolds and crossover pipe - free (got lucky)
current so far ~ $1295
known needed parts so far. misc fittings and such for fuel lines, wiring, hoses, etc.
tools that i had to/ wanted to buy becuase of where im forced to do this swap: full electric impact / ratchet / cutoff IR IQ series setup $600 random line wrenches sockets etc : $50
[This message has been edited by hookdonspeed (edited 07-31-2009).]
I will be watching this Thread as I think the 3500/3600/3900 motors might be the next common swap to come around. At a show this weekend this topic was asked several times by several people. I think with how common the motor is that it will be the next motor to be used in alot of Fiero swaps.
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04:39 PM
hookdonspeed Member
Posts: 7980 From: baltimore, md Registered: May 2008
I will be watching this Thread as I think the 3500/3600/3900 motors might be the next common swap to come around. At a show this weekend this topic was asked several times by several people. I think with how common the motor is that it will be the next motor to be used in alot of Fiero swaps.
i agree, its the "new thing" now that they actually have a decent output (same as the 3800NA and lighter)... i choose the "easy one" the LX9, no VVT, or DOD, as this is my first swap and dont want to get in over my head.
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04:45 PM
americasfuture2k Member
Posts: 7131 From: Edmond, Oklahoma Registered: Jan 2006
dang it, why is everyone turboing thier 3500's? i want to borrow someones tune to use as a base tune for my engine. dang. well good luck to you and i may turbo or supercharge mine later on. leaning more towards supercharging.
nope, after talking to darth, im going with the obd2 ecu from a 98 chevy venture, and i plan on getting my NA setup to run the way it should before i add boost, as for how much, talking to people over at 60degreev6, it should be able to take about 10lbs with a good tune, the bottom end of these motors seem to be rather strong unlike earlyer versions. i plan on doing 7-8lbs when i turbo mine, i just want this car to be a weekend cruiser that has some balls for friday nights at the track.
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05:41 PM
May 1st, 2009
hookdonspeed Member
Posts: 7980 From: baltimore, md Registered: May 2008
ive come to a small delema with the wiring harness... should i use the 3500 harness, cut off the o.e plugs and just re-pin the wires and put into the 98ecu connector? or should i try and find a 98 wiring harness, and put that onto the engine? if i go with the 98 harness, are the sensor connectors i have on the 3500 still the same? (o2 sensors, injector connector, map, etc...)
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09:58 PM
topher_time Member
Posts: 3231 From: Bailey's Harbor, for now. Registered: Sep 2005
dang it, why is everyone turboing thier 3500's? i want to borrow someones tune to use as a base tune for my engine. dang. well good luck to you and i may turbo or supercharge mine later on. leaning more towards supercharging.
you are using the 730 like so many of us? or no? also, do you know how much boost the stock motor can handle and still be reliable? im wanting to guess 6-7 lbs.
13 pounds max is what mine held, at 14 it lifted the head. I turned it down to 10 after that. And apparently when pushed hard for long periods of time, it still has issues with the heads and gaskets. At this point I'm all but giving up on my 3500 turbo car. If I was the one to destroy it, no big deal; but having someone I never met tear it up for their enjoyment, time to call it quits. I've lost all interest and motivation on that car, time for the next one. Was a fun car while it ran right though, spinning the tires into 3rd and peaking at 6950 rpm in 5th easing past my brother's '88 turbo 300zx drift car like it was a Fiesta. Hopefully the next one will be as good, if not better... time for some more camshafts
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11:08 PM
hookdonspeed Member
Posts: 7980 From: baltimore, md Registered: May 2008
Shipped it to a friend in Orlando to do some final tuning. Between picking it up and dropping it off it saw an extra few miles, received a cracked head, 2 blown head gaskets, a broken piston, and a broken camshaft. The other car in the trailer had the clutch blown out of it. Literally. Yes, legal action is being taken. Drivers of the truck said the cars were picked up like that. The other owner and I disagreed.
Originally posted by topher_time: Shipped it to a friend in Orlando to do some final tuning. Between picking it up and dropping it off it saw an extra few miles, received a cracked head, 2 blown head gaskets, a broken piston, and a broken camshaft. The other car in the trailer had the clutch blown out of it. Literally. Yes, legal action is being taken. Drivers of the truck said the cars were picked up like that. The other owner and I disagreed.
Did you ever post anything here about your 3500 swap? During the trip home earlier this week I saw a car being removed from a transport truck on the side of the interstate. I wondered about whether they should be doing that considering the circumstances indicated it was going to be used for an unauthorized purpose. If ever I had to turn my car over to a shop for purposes that didn't require test driving I would lower the rev limit and certainly disable boost mode.
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06:30 AM
hookdonspeed Member
Posts: 7980 From: baltimore, md Registered: May 2008
Shipped it to a friend in Orlando to do some final tuning. Between picking it up and dropping it off it saw an extra few miles, received a cracked head, 2 blown head gaskets, a broken piston, and a broken camshaft. The other car in the trailer had the clutch blown out of it. Literally. Yes, legal action is being taken. Drivers of the truck said the cars were picked up like that. The other owner and I disagreed.
man that sucks severely...
well, if you decide to scrap your 3500, send me a PM i might be intrested in some parts...... what ECU did you use?
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08:50 AM
PFF
System Bot
hookdonspeed Member
Posts: 7980 From: baltimore, md Registered: May 2008
Did you ever post anything here about your 3500 swap? During the trip home earlier this week I saw a car being removed from a transport truck on the side of the interstate. I wondered about whether they should be doing that considering the circumstances indicated it was going to be used for an unauthorized purpose. If ever I had to turn my car over to a shop for purposes that didn't require test driving I would lower the rev limit and certainly disable boost mode.
No, no build threads or anything like that. I was waiting to get the car done and running before spending time doing a build thread on the car. I told them the car was non-operational when it was picked up, and can not be driven under any circumstances. That went well.
quote
what ECU did you use?
3800 S/C ECU. Took a bunch to get the damn thing to work, I won't recommend using it on a 60 degree V6, at all. With the amount I had tied up in it I could have bought a new car. But I was having zero success on the OBD1 ecu's, to the point of wiping out 4 engines. Should have sent the car to Darth for tuning on the OBD1 stuff. Oh well. But I wanted something I could tune on mine own, as I already had the equipment. I was depending on another shop for the OBD1 stuff, we just couldn;t get it right.
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11:26 AM
hookdonspeed Member
Posts: 7980 From: baltimore, md Registered: May 2008
3800 S/C ECU. Took a bunch to get the damn thing to work, I won't recommend using it on a 60 degree V6, at all. With the amount I had tied up in it I could have bought a new car. But I was having zero success on the OBD1 ecu's, to the point of wiping out 4 engines. Should have sent the car to Darth for tuning on the OBD1 stuff. Oh well. But I wanted something I could tune on mine own, as I already had the equipment. I was depending on another shop for the OBD1 stuff, we just couldn;t get it right.
o.... what year 3800SC ecu? all the GM V6's (minus the 4.3) used the same ecu, just with different code/harness. im starting with a base code from the 3400 venture, as the spark and injection tables should be close to that of the 3500 (this is per darth who will be doing my tune)
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11:31 AM
topher_time Member
Posts: 3231 From: Bailey's Harbor, for now. Registered: Sep 2005
why was it recommended that you use the ECM from a venture of that year? was im guessing it is the v6 ECM? i know nothing about obd II computers other than my 98 blazer had one and my aveo has a korean one. what code is it going to use? i may switch over if i dont like how the 730 works with it. so far, its working. but i want a underhood (decklid) computer after i relocate my battery. ive been meaning to ask this question on the 60*v6 forums.
so after doing my own research on both the 3800 and newer 60degree engines, ive decided to go the unwritten path of the 3500 LX9 from an 04 Malibu. then to turbo it at a later date.
today i started ordering parts, as i do this swap i will try to document every penny i spend to get an accurate cost of the swap, and list the brands and what parts i needed to order. also, lots of pics as i do stuff :P its gona be a slow install due to lack of free time, but it will get done, end goal is a mid-12second turbo 3500
parts ordered, price, and brand/where from engine 04 malibu 12k miles - $400 (local salvage yard) spec stage2+ clutch - 359 (from spec) Plenum TB Adapter - 55 (wot-tech) 7x external crank trigger - 155 (wot-tech) 24x crank sensor - $45 (standard motor products pc61) ecu from 98venture van(as per darth) - reman from work - free from the rep 3400 balancer with 24x wheel - $48 (dorman from work) 88 fiero neutral flywheel - $46 (rhinopac from work)
known needed parts so far. 00+ 3400 throttlebody 00+ 3400 fuel rail (for return style system rather then returnless) misc fittings and such for fuel lines, wiring, hoses, etc. log style manifolds - the stock malibu ones looks less then useless for the fiero? alternator - maybe modify the 2.8l alt to fit? is that possible? ac compressor - either one just to be a free spinning pulley, make an ac-delete bracket, or actualy hookup my AC?..decisions decisions
You're not really on an "unwritten path" with the 3500. We are out there just not as documented in the Fiero World. Good luck with you're swap It looks as though I have a little competion. I'm in the process of doing a very similar build. I'm a little ahead of you so I will offer up some tips and advice.
Here's a pic for you to see how the front mount bracket has to be modified to fit the 3500 pan. It is a very simple mod to say the least. haha!
The accesory drive setup is vry simplistic. I'm using the alt, alt mount bracket and steel spacer from a 90 z24 cavalier. You will have to notch thedecklid to fit the high-mount altenator. I can get you a pic if you need it. My engine already has an idler for the ps pump and ac delete.
You should get a 65mm tb from an olds 3.5L DOHC engine. That adapter you have should have the bolt pattern for it along with the stock 3400 (52mm?) tb.
Good luck with the swap. Hopefully I have my 3500T/ 4t60E swap done within a month or two. Don't be shy if you have any questions.
dark, im sure its "possible" but it would probably be more trouble then its worth. firing pattern, air flow rates, ignition timing, would all be diffrent, and the 3500 uses a 52x wheel, i though the 3800's only used a 24x? and doesnt the 3800 use a mass air sensor, not a map?
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08:22 AM
americasfuture2k Member
Posts: 7131 From: Edmond, Oklahoma Registered: Jan 2006
i dont know how to tune, so im not going to attempt to do it on my own, i hear that hptuners is stupidly easy to use... might wana ask some others, alot of the 3800guys here use it for tuning....
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07:46 PM
americasfuture2k Member
Posts: 7131 From: Edmond, Oklahoma Registered: Jan 2006
ugh, its possible my swap may have just ended.... the shop where i was going to do the work at (the were letting me use one of their bays) caught fire this past weekend, the owner isnt sure if he will re-open.... the damage isnt that bad, he said it just gives him a reason to retire now (hes 68)
don't give up!! I am getting instrested in this swap! what are the raw HP's of this engine? what is so good about it?? Oh and start lookin for the next shop!!
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02:38 PM
hookdonspeed Member
Posts: 7980 From: baltimore, md Registered: May 2008
lol, im not giving up, i just spent too much on the $ and adapters and stuff, just might be getting sat aside for a littlebit...
LX9
The LX9 3500 is an OHV engine based on the 3400 V6. It incorporates electronic throttle control. Bore is 94 mm (3.7 in), stroke is 84 mm (3.3 in) for a displacement of 3498 cc (213 cu in). A GM Press Release for the 2004 Malibu described the 3500 thus: "3.5-liter V-6, will debut in the 2004 Chevrolet Malibu. The engine offers improved performance and fuel efficiency, and runs smoother and quieter than earlier generation V-6 engines. The 3500 V-6 features an advanced powertrain control module, improved fuel injection system, a redesigned exhaust manifold and a new catalytic converter contribute to reduced emissions, as well as improved efficiency and performance characteristics. Improvements in cooling, sealing and the accessory drive system add to the engine's overall quality, reliability and durability." Power output ranges from 196 hp (146 kW) to 201 hp (150 kW), torque ranges from 213 lb·ft (289 N·m) to 221 lb·ft (300 N·m). This engine was retired after the 2006 model year, being replaced by the 3.5 L LZ4 V6 for 2007.
its one of the new 60degreeV6 engines, mount locations are very close to the 2.8, and the trans mounting is exactly the same, same flywheel, clutch, etc..
with the same output as the 3800, it comes with aluminum heads, and flows better, the aftermarket isnt as large YET, but since these are the replacement engines for the 3800 that will change soon. most come with forged powerderd metal rods, and a steel crank, some have VVT and DoD (the lx9 does not, chose this one to not have to deal with that while tuning my first swap) theres a few people who have boosted them at about 10psi on a fully stock engine, and gotten results of about 320hp
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02:48 PM
PFF
System Bot
Madess Member
Posts: 2040 From: Cincinnati, OH Registered: Feb 2004
its a ls1 fuel filter (thats not a pic of the fiero system its a friends FD rx7 with an ls1 swap) but the idea is the same, he had a return style line, and thats how it was converted over to the returnless style, i dont see why this would cause any problems, factory setup on alot of cars it seems.
also got my spec stage 2+ clutch in, co worker hid it from me as a joke, i was about to call and start complaining about not getting it yet, but its here and all is good so far..
its a ls1 fuel filter (thats not a pic of the fiero system its a friends FD rx7 with an ls1 swap) but the idea is the same, he had a return style line, and thats how it was converted over to the returnless style, i dont see why this would cause any problems, factory setup on alot of cars it seems.
also got my spec stage 2+ clutch in, co worker hid it from me as a joke, i was about to call and start complaining about not getting it yet, but its here and all is good so far..
You can also buy a by-pass adjustable fuel pressure regulator and the appropriate AN fittings and adapt it to the stock lines and fuel rail and have the benefit of using the stock fuel filter and adjustable pressure along with a pressure gauge fitting. I paid about $100 for mine although I have not installed it yet.
Funny how I had to type in my part number to get this thing to come up in summit, the regular search put me in the $200 price range.
its no big deal switching to a ls1 filter, probably flows a little better then the old screw-on type, and this way i can use all O.E. type quick connects, and dont need to spend $200 on a FPR, and another $80 on fittings to adapt to it.
this is a budget 3500 build well not SO much, but im doing it, and documenting it to get a basic price of what itll cost if someone else wants to do it. and im trying to keep the O.E. look to it (well i might paint some stuff up all purdy like)
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05:21 PM
americasfuture2k Member
Posts: 7131 From: Edmond, Oklahoma Registered: Jan 2006
shoot mine was a budget build. merlot half-assed so much on this car. i gotta make it all better and correct a lot on it. i want to drop the motor out and pull it off the cradle and redo the engine and tranny mounts, but i dont have the space to do it. im already working around the little bit of space i have in my apartment complex 1 car garge.
yea, i was going to do the 3400 line, but id rather not if i dont need to.
so, that setup im not sure if it will work or not... that filter is the filter/regulator for the vette :/
but my question is, if that regulator makes a 58psi constant pressure to the fuel rail, the stock 3500 FPR would drop that down to the 55psi(max) and the vette regulator would just bleed the extra off back into the tank wouldnt it?
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10:02 AM
hookdonspeed Member
Posts: 7980 From: baltimore, md Registered: May 2008
<RANT> *sigh* this not having a garage or anywhere to do my work is really starting to piss me off... i got almost everything i need to do the swap, have a 3day weekend coming up, daughters in FL, gf isnt sick anymore, im just getting over my cold, and NOWHERE TO DO THE WORK... :/
