Has anyone used one of these?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...D8694372040172736984

Know anything about them? Are they the same as the Fiero Store hubs?

Thanks,

Steve
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Steve AT 88GTP DOT com
88 GT\3800 SC\4T65E-HD

[This message has been edited by Steve25 (edited 05-08-2010).]

First I have heard of this source, don't know if this is where Rodney and the Fiero Store source their hubs or not.

Price sure looks attractive.

Why don't YOU buy a set and let US know if you got screwed?

Kidding...........

How are you doing, Steve?

Joe

I'm sure curious about the origination, quality and correctness of these, seeing as I just ordered a set from TFS. Saving that $120 or so would be nice, but not at the expense of the car or myself...

Any info is appreciated.

-fh

Well, I just ordered one of these tonight, so I will let you know how it works out.

I just got my Fiero back after having the engine changed out to a 3800 SC III and only got about 1000 miles total on it. I had Ryan at Sinister Performance do a little more work on it to increase the performance and after driving it home it started to make a crunching noise once in a while like after I backed out of the driveway and then started forward. Then tonight the steering was shifted as if the alignment was out with the steering wheel shifted to the right and everytime I hit the brakes it jerked to the left and I heard a clunking noise. I jacked the car up and wiggled the front driver's side wheel and it has some play in it. So I am assuming the front wheel bearing is shot. I have a lot of experience with industrial bearings and their failure and this one sounds just like one that has eating up the cage for the ball bearings, where the balls stack together and they will run, but every once in a while it will give you that crunching noise as the balls stackup until they separate and then the wheel will roll again.

Mark,

Check to make sure that the cross-shaft that holds the upper control arm is not "walking around".
That shaft is bolted into slotted holes in the cross member. If the nuts are a bit loose, it will let the shaft slide around when you change direction.
Been there.

Raydar, everything in the steering seems fine. When I had the Fiero up on the jack I checked and the steering seemed fine, but the wheel wobbled on the spindle or at least seemed to. Along with that the noise I heard sounds very much like a ball bearing that has lost its race and the balls are packing together causing the snapping chrunching noise. Thanks though for the suggestion.

I e-mailed these folks about these bearings about a month ago. They said they are made in China, but are of high quality and as I recall had a "Lifetime" warranty, what ever that's good for. I, too would like to get some first hand reports on their quality since I have tow 88 GT's with over 100,000 miles and would like to salt a set away for the future.

I ordered one of these. I'm not going to use it right away, since my front hubs are both good, but I have a couple of used OEM hubs in my garage to compare it to. You might say I'm stocking up for the inevitable for my 88.

I received my bearing yesterday. It is "Precision" brand, made in China:

Here are some pictures of the new bearing and a good used OEM bearing, for comparison:

Notice that the "hat" is a little taller on the new bearing, and is tucked in to the main assembly instead of being flat on it.

Notice that the depression in the middle is deeper and rounded on the OEM bearing.
The new bearing doesn't feel as nice when rotated by hand, but that doesn't mean anything, since it hasn't been used.
If one of the bearings on my car goes bad, I'll try it and report.
Do any of you have a picture of a Rodney/Fiero Store bearing for comparison?

Anyone have another link to the bearing? The link comes up dead above and I don't see them listed....

This picture is from The Fiero Store. Their bearing looks a lot like the Ebay bearing (but the Ebay bearing is a lot cheaper). Maybe the Ebay seller will put up some more. The listing where I got mine is expired.

[This message has been edited by TopNotch (edited 05-13-2010).]

quote Originally posted by TopNotch:

Note the sticker... it says it replaces a part number 513040, which if I'm not mistaken was the actual Timken part number for the 88 fronts. Likely it'll fit fine; of course its still an unknown quality Chinese part but its good to have another source.

for the record - the Rodney/Fiero Store bearings were made by eBearings in the US - the ones listed on eBay are made in China - so NO they are not the same bearings (maybe look similar, but then they would have to so they will fit).

edit >> eBearing link: http://www.ebearing.com/rarebearings/fiero.htm

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 05-13-2010).]

It looks like the Chinese cloned the eBearing unit and not the OEM unit. It's a dead ringer for the pictures on the eBearing site.

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: for the record - the Rodney/Fiero Store bearings were made by eBearings in the US - the ones listed on eBay are made in China - so NO they are not the same bearings (maybe look similar, but then they would have to so they will fit). edit >> eBearing link: http://www.ebearing.com/rarebearings/fiero.htm

e bearing did not make the bearing they claim it is us made but from looking at blown up pics of both bearings they are exactly the same and ebearing has only one bearing in there store no listings of any other products other than some e books looks fishy to me a store with only one bearing in stock


one other thing I have bought parts with box labled made in the usa and inside where parts made in china only the box was made in the usa and they where wagner parts that they make in China

i also have a brand new MSD ss coil package says made in the USA tag on coil said made in Tiawan

[This message has been edited by bubbajoexxx (edited 05-13-2010).]

Made in China... bastards.

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fierogt28

88 GT, loaded, 5-speed

So where ever you buy them, they all come from far east...

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"I'm not driving too fast, . . . I'm just flying too low."

Work done 07-08 Work done 08-09
Work done 09-10 4.9 ongoing project

quote Originally posted by falcon_ca: So where ever you buy them, they all come from far east...

Just be happy someone is producing the bearing....

The Ebay seller says he's going to put some more of these up as soon as he gets them in stock.

I doubt rodney's is made in China.

quote Originally posted by 3.4Turbo: I doubt rodney's is made in China.

Rodney doesn't sell them anymore, or I'd have bought from him.

Thanks for the info, Topnotch and Bubba; now we just need to get a report from someone who has installed and driven on these for some miles. Anyone?

-fh

I bought a pair from the Fiero Store the last time they ran a 15% off sale. #RB939 made in the US. I too am saving them for when I really need them or if I can ever do a complete restoration.

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=-Eric the Dread

1988 Fiero GT 2.8L V6
2001 Grand Prix GTP SC3.8L V6

I installed one of these Chinese bearings in my Fiero this week. I only have about 100 miles on it so far and it seems to be fine. The original problem I thought was the front wheel bearing was not so I now have an original bearing sitting on my shelf for the future. The Chinese one felt rougher before installation than the stock one but it does seem to run fine on the car. I will let everyone know if I have any problems with it.

Anybody have a chinese hub fail?

quote Originally posted by bubbajoexxx: e bearing did not make the bearing they claim it is us made but from looking at blown up pics of both bearings they are exactly the same and ebearing has only one bearing in there store no listings of any other products other than some e books looks fishy to me a store with only one bearing in stock

Not to start an arguement here, but do you have documentation that says this??

I don't know how anyone can say 2 parts are made by the the same company just by looking at some pictures on the internet, unless there is actual physical documentation that the eBearing ones are made by the same company as the 'Made in China' ones I will go with them being different. The company that is making the Chinese ones, could have just as easily copied the eBearing ones so that could explained why they look the same. The Chinese ones have only recently become available, whereas the eBearing ones were made some time ago. If they came from the same company, one might think that they both would have hit the market around the same time? I suppose if someone has the eBearing ones they could look at them and see if they are marked Made in the US or China on the metal housing or something.

BOTTOM LINE, Rodney is sold out (eBearing brand), The Fiero Store still has some of the "eBearing" ones in stock and then there are the "Made in China" ones - SO it is not like a person can be to picky one which ones to buy. If you need them, you need them and even the "Made in China" ones are better than nothing unless you are willing to modify the car to install some other type.

...so you see this whole arguement is mute, "beggar's can't be choosy".

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 05-16-2010).]

Hi guys, just to set the record straight.
I run eBearing and supply the 88 front wheel bearing hub assembly units to the Fiero Store.
They are being manufactured solely for me, as a favor to me, by the bearing manufacturing company I used to run. We produced more wheel bearing hub assembly units than anyone other than GM, and we were the first to manufacture wheel bearing hub assembly units for the aftermarket, back in 1980.
The Fiero units are entirely manufactured, forged, machined, etc., etc. here in the midwest. The specifications are OEM, and the components are all OEM quality (i.e. the studs are from OEM runs, not aftermarket). Quality control is OE level at every step, and the (necessarily short runs) hubs are produced alongside all the other hubs to the same specs.
I got into the 88 Fiero hub unit business almost by accident, because I had once promised GM I would manufacture the hubs to fill in what they could not produce in Sandusky. We were producing a few other hubs for them as Sandusky was unable to meet demand even running 24/7 those days. Unfortunately, GM's projected demand for 88 Fiero hubs never rose to the point of making them financially viable, so I never bothered to work them into our pipeline. That's why you guys ran out of 88 front hubs so many years ago. GM ran what they had to, and we were never able to jusify taking over production after that.
Along the way, however, we had done all of the engineering, spec'd the forging, broaching, machining, assembly specs, and so on, as they are in the same family with the 513011, 513017, etc., which are high-volume units.
When I stepped down from running the manufacturing operation, I started getting a lot of concerned calls from people I had once promised the Fiero hubs to, and long story short, to make peace in the world I was somehow able to convince the guys who came after me to dust off the Fiero hub project and put them into production.
That said, it's such low production that I'm sure everyone except Fiero Store is losing a lot of money on each unit. Call it a pet project or a boutique item, certainly not a money-maker.
But they are very high quality hub units, to OE specs and are identical to what we would have supplied to GM if the stars had aligned for the Fiero's future and Fiero production numbers had been a bit higher for MY88.
If I saw a Chinese hub, I've seen them all, so I'd be able to tell you who made it, but I haven't so I can't say who manufactures them or what specs they're using. It's virtually impossible to successfully reverse-engineer a hub assembly (you don't know the forces, vectors, suspension geometry, etc. that you're designing for), so if they're copying ours, then I would worry a lot. But since I'm sure no one else has the GM specs, it's hard to figure out how else they could have done it. My guess is they were sent one of our hubs and are simply making their best shot at copycats based on their best hunch what is what.
With bearings, as with a lot of other things in life, you get what you pay for. As for any Chinese hub unit, I'd concentrate my concerns on what bearings are inside, their quality, size, load rating, and so on; the grease used; the grease seals; the quality of the studs; the quality and hardness of the forgings along with their machining specs and methods. There is also a black art to successful assembly to the proper bearing preload, fitup and assembed unit tolerances, start-up torque, and of course, the monumental QC processes all along the way. Are Chinese hub units QC'd to every OEM ISO and QS specification? Um, no.
Just my $0.02; I'm very proud of our hubs and the people who forge, machine, and assemble them here in the U.S.A.

Thanks for the insight into the 88 front hub 'dilemma'

eBearing:

So you are still manufacturing them?

thanks
Nolan

Yes, they're still in production, no availability issues. Fiero Store should always have them in stock, or not far away.
All this fancy modern production scheduling and robotics allows the shop floor to "slipstream" Fiero hub setups in with others for minimal disruption ... as long as I ask nicely and get them into the production matrix far enough in advance.

Excellent, thanks.

quote Originally posted by eBearing: Yes, they're still in production, no availability issues. Fiero Store should always have them in stock, or not far away. All this fancy modern production scheduling and robotics allows the shop floor to "slipstream" Fiero hub setups in with others for minimal disruption ... as long as I ask nicely and get them into the production matrix far enough in advance.

This is good to know....now that it is not a limited run then maybe the price will come down on them.....

It is great that we have an aftermarket bearing available for our cars but are people still having issues with it? No personal experience, but from what I have read, the bearing will not hold up to anything more than light driving. Is this still the case?

Thanks
Blake

quote Originally posted by LZeppelin513: ...No personal experience, but from what I have read, the bearing will not hold up to anything more than light driving. Is this still the case? ...

I'm really not intending to "pile on", but I was thinking about asking the same question.
There are stories about early purchasers of these bearings experiencing failures in an SCCA "club racing" environment. (Not that that's any less stressful than other environments.)
Were these isolated incidents?
Are these assemblies sturdy enough to use on race tracks?
Not that everyone here is driving a racer, but there are a great many of us who go to "track days" and play, frequently in "daily driver" cars.
A bearing failure could mess up someone's entire week.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 06-02-2010).]

We manufactured a lot of wheel bearings and hub assemblies for drag racing, oval, stock cars, road racing, closed wheel, open wheel, street rods, you name it, along with the bread-and-butter automotive and industrial bearings. We invented the c-clip eliminator and for a long time had essentially 100% of the pro drag racing market. We put ball bearings into NASCAR stock cars for qualifying, and a lot of other stuff along the way. Automotive and industrial pays the bills, but racing was always was my favorite.
And I know what you mean about autocrossing and track days. I've been running local, SCCA and PCA autocross and Pro Solo and whatnot since the early 1980's, and track days with the PCA, BMWCCA, or whatever I had that was fast at the time.

The problem isn't so much the hub assembly itself, but its engineering era. The Fiero's rear hubs (513011) and entire rear suspension were engineered back in the late 1970's -- long, long before anyone at GM knew what they were doing. Even then, the X chassis stuff was engineered and produced to a strict budget. Design parameters revolved around the tires and suspension loading of the day, 165/15 to 175 tires, and so on and so on. Suspension geometry, knuckle designs, spring rates, squat, brake dive, brake proportioning, you name it ... 99% of it was a shot in the dark. Oh, and GM had never before designed or built a "cartridge" bearing or what we now call a hub assembly. Unless you count the Corvair, which would be a bad idea.

Anyway, those first few generations of GM FWD chassis and hub assemblies (particularly the 513011, which is a design and engineering abomination, I tell you) had failure rates so high that they single-handedly launched an entirely new segment of the U.S. bearing industry ... and our company was the first to engineer and produce aftermarket versions. Within a few years, we had a number of competitors, but GM was selling a lot of front-drive cars with crappy geometry and high bearing failure rates, so we were all happy for a very long time.

The 88 Fiero front hub is certainly an improvement over what had come before, but in reality it only benefeited from 3 or 4 years of GM building up some wheel bearing design and engineering know-how. For 1988, it was implemented for two main reasons: first, as an engineering exercise, and second because GM was determined to standardize all of their wheel bearings to unitized hub assemblies, and that eventually included all the 4x2 and 4x4 light-duty trucks and the Corvette, too.

Unfortunately, while the 88 Fiero front hub assembly and suspension geometry was an improvement, it was still not quite up to where it should have been, and specifically, the way the bearings are loaded. Also key is that their bearing designs had not kept pace with the requirements caused by wider wheels and stickier tires; they were always playing catch-up. Negative offset wheels were another monkey wrench into the works which messed with all of the "known" good suspension designs. There are a lot of other esoteric engineering and suspension design characteristics that get mixed in, and are not worth going into. The short story is that GM was still thrashing around trying to figure out how all these front-drive suspensions and new negative offset tires and wheels and ABS and so on should work together, and how to use hub assembly units and CV joints and front-drive without dangerous torque steer, and by the way, people are complaining that their X chassis cars all spin aournd backward under braking. Those were dark times at GM, and I would not have wanted to be in their chassis, suspension and brake group, that's for sure. Ulcer city.

Quick example: GM was trying to race X body cars but the 513011 bearings would fail too rapidly for them to get any track time. We designed a unit with tapered roller bearings in place of ball bearings, and that helped. But then the flange (where the brake rotor sits) cracked, starting at the balance/installation holes. Big crash potential there. So we made units with no holes (which meant we had to put the mounting bolts in at the factory, and they were a PITA to install on the car). That worked better, but then the bearings failed again, catastrophically. So we put even bigger bearings in. That worked, but then the knuckles failed. Even worse crash issue. They beefed up the knuckles, then the control arm mounts would fail. You get the picture. It's much, much safer to have the bearings be the point of failure, rather than the knuckle or control arm. I think they ended up building those cars with 4x4 truck hub assemblies.

Believe it or not, things were much, much worse over at Chrysler's suspension department. The K-car suspension geometry is even worse than the worst GM design, and stayed bad the whole time K the K car chassis was in production. We made a nice business out of those replacement bearings, too. When they started trying to race the Shelby Charger, they were getting only a handful of laps before the front bearings would fail. Practice session, change bearings. Qualifying session, change bearings. Anything longer than a sprint race and they were in real trouble. This is one I'm particularly proud of; we came in with an entirely new bearing, hub and spindle that fit within the stock suspension parts, and the Shelby Charger guys are suddenly able to run an entire season on one set of bearings. Yes, they were really expensive. But a fraction the cost of doing it any other way.

We've done the best we can within the constraints of the 88 Fiero hub assembly. Understand that the tires and mechanical grip and loads the Fiero's suspension and bearings were designed for are nowhere near what today's street tires generate, and that loads go up exponentially, not linearly. Autocrossing and track days destroy wheel bearings in older cars simply because the grip generated by today's tires is far beyond the engineering design envelope of the day.

But the Fiero isn't unique ... a fast way to destroy the wheel bearings on any old car is to slap a set of Hoosiers on wide wheels and go lap Mid-Ohio for a couple sessions. BTDT.

We have looked into the possibility of building the 88 Fiero hub with tapered roller bearings instead of ball bearings. Unfortunately, there is no standard tapered roller bearing size that will work, the hub assembly is too small; adapting a different design would mean the hub assemblies could be made, but then they would cost far, far more than you would ever be willing to pay. The engineering guys also wrestle with this question: if we make the bearings so they're not the point of failure, and instead the point of failure becomes the rotor flange or suspension mount, is that a design direction we want to go? The answer, of course, is no.

I hope that answers your question.

Ebearing, that is depressing for us 88 owners

I for one thank you for your time and explanation. So often, us semi-educated consumers just get the marketing-sanitized answer of "NO," but we never know why, and personally it drives me nuts. It's very rare (even more so for us owners of 20+ year old weird cars) that a parts company gives us the long answer, and even if it's not what we always want to hear, it still gives me satisfaction that we're getting "THE answer."

You just won yourself another customer for taking the time to explain that to me... I have an '88, and although my original bearings are ok for now, they will need replacement eventually, and I'll buy them from your company.

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Currently in the middle of my 88 + 3800NA swap

quote Originally posted by eBearing: I hope that answers your question.

Thanks for taking the time to post some good, solid, authoritative technical information on the '88 hub assemblies.

Do you have any recommendation for better alternatives to the 513011 "abomination" hubs?

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 06-02-2010).]

Yes. Thanks for the background. Quite interesting.

eBearing...thanks for taking the time to bring us up to speed!