I've searched long and hard and this place was recommended to me by someone over on w-body.com.

I have a 95 Regal that has an L67 (SC 3800) swap, and I'm planning a 5 speed swap since the 4T65E is a pile of garbage. I hear the Getrag 282 and the L67 are a popular combo among Fiero guys, so that's why I came here.

Here's what I need help with, and any advice would be greatly appreciated.

1. I hear there are clearance issues with the oil filter adapter. INTENSE sells one for $150, and apparently you can use a 1988 Reatta one as well, but I haven't heard of other options. What are some of you doing to get around this problem? Anyone have one for sale?

2. Transmission to engine bracket, apparently has to be fabricated. Does anyone have some tips, perhaps some pictures, measurements of what one would need to look like, or better yet, is there one for sale here or one that someone would be willing to make for me? I do not have a welder nor do I know anyone that welds aside from the machine shop down the street, which isn't cheap.

Thanks in advance!

Usually people just run bolts through the bellhousing into the engine block to hold them together.



Here are a number of 3800 build threads

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/079560.html

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 02-08-2011).]

Not sure what you mean by engine to trans bracket, the Getrag will bolt right up to the L67. You will need to fab trans mounts, can probably be figured out using pieces of the Getrag mounts, and pieces of the regal mounts.

I cant see that the oil filter adapter would be an issue, It is for us because the engine cradle is in the way, your cradle obviously fits the adapter you have, and the 5speed trans wont take space near the oil filter. You will have only an axle instead of the big auto output shaft case.

You will need to figure out a flywheel. For our cars we use a Camaro 3800 flywheel cut down to an overall thickness of .840" and balanced to match the 3800 flexplate, I imagine it would be the same in yours.

quote Originally posted by Mike Gonzalez: Not sure what you mean by engine to trans bracket, the Getrag will bolt right up to the L67. You will need to fab trans mounts, can probably be figured out using pieces of the Getrag mounts, and pieces of the regal mounts. I cant see that the oil filter adapter would be an issue, It is for us because the engine cradle is in the way, your cradle obviously fits the adapter you have, and the 5speed trans wont take space near the oil filter. You will have only an axle instead of the big auto output shaft case. You will need to figure out a flywheel. For our cars we use a Camaro 3800 flywheel cut down to an overall thickness of .840" and balanced to match the 3800 flexplate, I imagine it would be the same in yours.

Its a little more complicated than that. Not sure what kind of OFA from what model 3800 you're using, but the OFA we try to use on w-bodies doesn't fit correctly. INTENSE has released an oil filter relocation plate for $180 to remedy this situation.

This is factory with a relocation kit made to work:




AND here's the intermediate shaft bracket on a 3800

[/QUOTE]

Sorry if I'm being dense. I'm not entirely sure that any other oil filter adapter will clear our subframes.

Edit...your intermediate shaft doesn't look the same as the ones on the 282's that we're using...

[This message has been edited by XtremeRevolution (edited 02-08-2011).]

Ah, I didnt even think about the fact of using an intermediate shaft, ours dont.

http://www.gmtuners.com/swap/3800.htm

Scroll down on that page to the oil adapters, the 2nd style from a W-body might work for you.

That page is excellent! Thanks! I should be able to easily find an L27 oil filter adapter in a junkyard, or my buddy might still have my old one from the engine swap. Thanks!

No problem ! If you need to have your PCM reprogrammed to remove the Auto trans controls I reccomend the owner of that Site, Ryan, He does great work and fast turnaround.

quote Originally posted by Mike Gonzalez: No problem ! If you need to have your PCM reprogrammed to remove the Auto trans controls I reccomend the owner of that Site, Ryan, He does great work and fast turnaround.

I've been tuning with HPTuners so far so I should be able to figure it out myself. I still need a wideband to get things exact, but I'm close with LTFT's locking at zero and registering very little (during shifts) to no knock on a 3.4 pulley, headers (with 3" DP), 3" cat, CAI, 104's, and a 2.5" exhaust.

However, I had one concern.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/105087.html

quote Originally posted by Sidecar 2M6 SE: If the 3800 you are wanting to put that adapter on did not come with that same type be careful in your choice of spring for the oil pressure regulator that slides into the timing cover where that piece mounts on. I learned this lesson the hard way. The spring has to be the one designed for the adapter in the pic you posted. If you use a spring from a longer style adapter your oil pressure will not be regulated properly and there is a good chance the oil pressure will be so high it will push the rubber seal on the oil filter out of the way and leak from the filter area like crazy. I swapped a 3800 from a 94 Lesabre to a 94 Regal and I had to change that adapter for the swap to work. Well I have never seen so much oil come out of a motor so fast. It turned out that I had used the oil pressure regulator spring from the longer adapter by mistake and I had a heck of a mess of oil all over my garage floor after only a few seconds of running the motor. I figured it out but it took some head scratching before I realized what the problem was. The oil pressure was so high it also pushed the O ring out of the body of the oil pressure sending unit. I have never seen that happen before.

Could you elaborate on what piece he's talking about, what spring he's talking about, what this all does, and how I can avoid the problem he had should I choose to use a different oil filter adapter? Does this spring come with the adapter?

[This message has been edited by XtremeRevolution (edited 02-08-2011).]

When you remove the adapter from the block there will be a piston that pops out with a spring behind it. Most adapters dont come with the new piston/spring, but I have also never heard of this problem before. Hopefully Ryan sees this thread and will post some insight.

quote Originally posted by Mike Gonzalez: When you remove the adapter from the block there will be a piston that pops out with a spring behind it. Most adapters dont come with the new piston/spring, but I have also never heard of this problem before. Hopefully Ryan sees this thread and will post some insight.

What I meant was, when I pull an adapter off of a junkyard car (highly doubtful I'll bother getting it new unless its very hard to find), will I be able to grab the spring and have it work identically as well?

I do have an oil pressure gauge I need to install...

quote Originally posted by Mike Gonzalez: When you remove the adapter from the block there will be a piston that pops out with a spring behind it. Most adapters dont come with the new piston/spring, but I have also never heard of this problem before. Hopefully Ryan sees this thread and will post some insight.

I've never seen an instance where you've needed to change the spring and/or piston when changing the style of oil filter adapter you can use on this engine. The oil filter adapter simply limits the travel of the piston out of the bore (in the timing cover) which is being pushed out against spring pressure. When the engine is running and the oil pump is making pressure, it pushes the piston back into the bore AWAY from the adapter. So I don't see how the adapter could affect oil pressure since the piston or spring never touches it during normal operation.

The high oil pressure issue that caused a rubber seal to blow out in that one case could have been caused by damage done to the piston upon installation of the different adapter the guy used; old sludge build-up or other debris (like old gasket, blasting sand, etc) in the adapter that wasn't cleaned out, or a defective oil filter. Without knowing exactly what caused that guy's problem, I don't think you can blame the factory spring and/or piston for being wrong for the adapter.

-ryan

------------------
OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I've never seen an instance where you've needed to change the spring and/or piston when changing the style of oil filter adapter you can use on this engine. The oil filter adapter simply limits the travel of the piston out of the bore (in the timing cover) which is being pushed out against spring pressure. When the engine is running and the oil pump is making pressure, it pushes the piston back into the bore AWAY from the adapter. So I don't see how the adapter could affect oil pressure since the piston or spring never touches it during normal operation. The high oil pressure issue that caused a rubber seal to blow out in that one case could have been caused by damage done to the piston upon installation of the different adapter the guy used; old sludge build-up or other debris (like old gasket, blasting sand, etc) in the adapter that wasn't cleaned out, or a defective oil filter. Without knowing exactly what caused that guy's problem, I don't think you can blame the factory spring and/or piston for being wrong for the adapter. -ryan

Actually, we had a guy on our forums (w-body.com) who tried to use a few different oil filter adapters, and never replaced that spring. He always had issues with very high oil pressure and never really figured it out. He was getting crazy oil pressure readings and thought it was something else. Went through two motors actually, trying the same oil filter adapters. Never did figure it out till I mentioned this and he said he never did replace that spring.

Come to think of it, we have a thread on gmforum discussing how to increase oil pressure and all they do is place a washer between the spring and the piston.

quote After modding the engine enough you may want to consider upgrading your oil pressure bypass valve. It's easy and cheap. Less then $4 and about a hour and a half. Here's what I had stock. Jack up the car and remove the passenger side wheel. Remove the splash shield. Drain the oil. Locate the oil filter adapter and unplug the oil pressure sender unit and remove the oil pressure sender. Then use a 13mm ratcheting style wrench, a socket wrench wont fit. Remove the 4 bolts holding the adapter on. This is what you need to buy. Dorman washers, part number 766-010. Remove the plunger from the spring and place one washer, and ONE washer ONLY! in to the plunger. You will also need a new gasket for the oil filter adapter. Be sure to put the side with the red line towards the adapter. Clean up the gasket surface real good and put back together. Torque to 29 foot pounds. Double check this to make sure your engine is the same setting. Put a new filter on, fill with oil, and connect the oil pressure sender. Start engine and check oil pressure. A nice increase for less the $4.00

Is there a difference as to how far that piston will go into each oil filter adapter? If you can raise oil pressure 10psi from adding one small washer in the spring, I can see how different spring weights will definitely have a very large effect on your oil pressure, potentially catastrophic.

Most of the time, you should have no problems running any of the oil filter adapters using a PF47 oil filter.

quote After you get this manual trans swap done; if you end up with a problem with the idle speed wanting to dip low when you come to a stop and can't seem to get it fixed using HP Tuners, let me know. There are a few IAC control tables in the 3800 PCM that the HP Tuners software doesn't give you access to. I have TunerCat OBD2 which gives me access to these additional tables, one of which governs the amount of initial commanded IAC opening based on engine RPM. The factory settings for the auto trans applications are quite low and can create some problems when using a manual transmission.

This is only a common problem if you are not using a VSS, and if you are and still having these issues, then it can be corrected by any tuning package, even using HPT for free without having to pay for it.

quote Originally posted by XtremeRevolution: I actually have that problem now with my 4T65E. This is the reason I'm going with a 282 swap; they're not getting along. I have a 99 PCM from a Monte Carlo and a 03 4T65E from a Buick Century with a HD diff. Everything I can find is set up properly in the PCM, but its occasionally going into limp mode for no reason whatsoever and it slips into 1st gear when hot. The trans was pulled from a running car with rear end damage so I doubt there's anything wrong with it. The RPMs do already dip when coming to a stop, causing a the lights to dim for a second before they jump back up. Never caused the car to stall, but it is an annoyance.

What service number is on the PCM you are using with this 03 trans? What model year programming are you using?

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: What service number is on the PCM you are using with this 03 trans? What model year programming are you using?

How can I find that information? This was pulled from a 1999 Monte Carlo with a 3800, and that's the extent of what I know. I was borrowing my buddy's HPTuners setup to tune this car.

quote Originally posted by XtremeRevolution: Is there a difference as to how far that piston will go into each oil filter adapter? If you can raise oil pressure 10psi from adding one small washer in the spring, I can see how different spring weights will definitely have a very large effect on your oil pressure, potentially catastrophic.

I haven't inspected every different design oil filter adapter out there so I can't tell you if the piston can protrude further into some adapters than others. However, since the spring inserts into the timing cover first and then the piston goes on top of that, I don't see how that would make a difference. Oil pressure is applied to the piston from the adapter side which pushes it further into the bore (which is in the timing cover) against the spring pressure. So at no point during normal engine operation is the piston making contact with the adapter. The only way I can see there being any kind of problem is if the piston comes too far out of the bore and then becomes stuck and normal pressure levels can't force it back into the bore - this would result in extremely high oil pressure.

I've worked with and changed out about 4 different types of oil filter adapters over the years and I've NEVER had to replace a spring or piston. Like I said, without knowing what actually caused that guy's high oil pressure issues; it is hard for me to believe the oil filter adapter itself could have caused it.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I haven't inspected every different design oil filter adapter out there so I can't tell you if the piston can protrude further into some adapters than others. However, since the spring inserts into the timing cover first and then the piston goes on top of that, I don't see how that would make a difference. Oil pressure is applied to the piston from the adapter side which pushes it further into the bore (which is in the timing cover) against the spring pressure. So at no point during normal engine operation is the piston making contact with the adapter. The only way I can see there being any kind of problem is if the piston comes too far out of the bore and then becomes stuck and normal pressure levels can't force it back into the bore - this would result in extremely high oil pressure. I've worked with and changed out about 4 different types of oil filter adapters over the years and I've NEVER had to replace a spring or piston. Like I said, without knowing what actually caused that guy's high oil pressure issues; it is hard for me to believe the oil filter adapter itself could have caused it.

So you're saying that if I picked up a different oil filter adapter for this L67 that came out of a 2000 Regal GS, say, an OFA from a 94 Regal with an L27, that I could leave the spring and piston from the stock L67 and my oil pressure should be nearly the same, with absolutely no issues? And you're 100% sure of this? I'm asking because I don't want to end up trying it and having something break. If you can adjust oil pressure by installing spacers after that spring, it would only make sense that different spring rates would yield different oil pressures. Would the diameter of the oil passages have an effect on that as well? Like I said, I'd hate to try it and have something break.

Let me ask a differnet question. If it doesn't make a difference, then couldn't one assume that when switching the spring and piston from the donor engine, complete with the matching OFA, there would be nothing to worry about?

I'm just trying to cover all of my bases here, and that one thread on this forum is what's worrying me the most regarding that spring pressure.

[This message has been edited by XtremeRevolution (edited 02-08-2011).]

quote Originally posted by XtremeRevolution: How can I find that information? This was pulled from a 1999 Monte Carlo with a 3800, and that's the extent of what I know. I was borrowing my buddy's HPTuners setup to tune this car.

You'll have to look at the VIN number for the source file you used to tune the PCM with (might also be able to look it up using the calibration ID).

The 03-newer transmissions have less gear sensing pressure switches than earlier transmissions. The pressure control strategies are different as well. You can't use 2002-older programming with a 2003-newer 4T65-E transmission. You'll need to be using 2003-newer model year programming.

Some older PCMs can be reprogrammed with 2003 model year programming. Here's a list I've tested:
12209614
12209624
12583826
12583827

A few others might work also but I haven't tested them. I do know some won't work right. I had a case a number of years ago where another tuner tried to tune a 98 or 99 PCM to work with a 2003 4T65-E and while it did shift ok, the trans acted like it was slipping in 1st gear when you were trying to take off from a dead stop. The cure was to use a newer PCM compatible with the 2003 programming. This MIGHT be exactly what YOU have going on right now.

-ryan

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: You'll have to look at the VIN number for the source file you used to tune the PCM with (might also be able to look it up using the calibration ID). The 03-newer transmissions have less gear sensing pressure switches than earlier transmissions. The pressure control strategies are different as well. You can't use 2002-older programming with a 2003-newer 4T65-E transmission. You'll need to be using 2003-newer model year programming. Some older PCMs can be reprogrammed with 2003 model year programming. Here's a list I've tested: 12209614 12209624 12583826 12583827 A few others might work also but I haven't tested them. I do know some won't work right. I had a case a number of years ago where another tuner tried to tune a 98 or 99 PCM to work with a 2003 4T65-E and while it did shift ok, the trans acted like it was slipping in 1st gear when you were trying to take off from a dead stop. The cure was to use a newer PCM compatible with the 2003 programming. This MIGHT be exactly what YOU have going on right now. -ryan

That does seem like exactly what's going on right now. The problem is, can I just replace the PCM? Wouldn't there be issues with the wiring of the PCM connectors going from the 99 PCM to the 03? I can put off my 5 speed swap for a while if I can get this transmission working right, since a new PCM and HPTuners credits are going to be cheaper and presumably less time consuming to replace than a 5 speed and a spec stage 3 clutch.

[This message has been edited by XtremeRevolution (edited 02-08-2011).]

quote Originally posted by XtremeRevolution: So you're saying that if I picked up a different oil filter adapter for this L67 that came out of a 2000 Regal GS, say, an OFA from a 94 Regal with an L27, that I could leave the spring and piston from the stock L67 and my oil pressure should be nearly the same, with absolutely no issues? And you're 100% sure of this? I'm asking because I don't want to end up trying it and having something break.

The oil filter adapter pictured below actually came stock on a 1997 3800 Series 2 Supercharged engine I had come into the shop a few years ago:



So I know it will work fine on a 3800 Series 2 L67 engine. I've also seen the exact same one used on a couple of Series 1 engines. Same casting number and everything. I can't remember what vehicles those came in for sure.

Am I 100% sure you won't have any issues? How can I be sure of that? If I'm not installing it, how can I possibly know if it is being done right?

My advice to you is this: get the adapter you want to use and make sure it is clean and free of debris, old gasket material, sludge, etc. Also make sure the timing cover area where this bolts on is clean and free of old gasket material, debris, sludge, whatever. Make sure when you are cleaning the gasket sealing area of the timing cover you do not nick the piston or the bore the piston goes into. If you remove the piston and clean out the timing cover with brake cleaner or anything else, make sure you lube up the bore and the piston with motor oil before reinstalling it (make sure you install the spring first).

The piston should push in and should pop back outwards (by the spring) using just your finger. It should not catch, hang-up, or drag in the bore. If it does, you have a problem (probably a burr or nick on the piston or in the bore).

I would leave your stock L67 oil pressure regulator piston and spring in your engine and install this adapter using a new gasket. After you refill the oil and put on a new oil filter (pre-filled with oil), unplug all 6 injectors and crank the engine over until oil pressure comes up; then stop (don't exceed a maximum of 15 seconds cranking time; allow the starter to cool for 1 full minute for every 15 seconds of cranking). Plug all the injectors back in and install an oil pressure gauge if your car doesn't already have one. Start the engine and observe the oil pressure. If it goes out of spec, shut the engine off immediately and diagnose the problem. If everything looks good and there are no leaks, then you should be good to go. That's the only way you are going to be sure.

-ryan

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 02-08-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: You SHOULD be able to just replace the PCM. I don't think there is anything significantly different in the wiring pinouts. You will need to be using 2003 GTP programming on a compatible PCM. VATS is enabled in these PCMs from the factory so you'll need to disable it (if your car doesn't have a PK2 or PK3 VATS system or you don't have a bypass module). The only way I've found to disable VATS in these PCMs is to set the "VATS injector disable time" to 0.00 seconds (factory setting is 4.00 seconds). If your car has a PassKey II system already in it that you have wired up to this PCM then it may work fine without disabling it in the programming. NOTE: If you're not running a catalytic converter or rear O2 sensor, you'll need to set the trouble codes for these diagnostics to "No MIL" so they can still be allowed to set (but just not turn on the check engine light). Why? Because starting in 2001, GM installed some more diagnostic subroutines into the programming to check the cat and post-cat O2 sensor. If you aren't running a cat or the rear O2 and disable the trouble codes for them, these diagnostics will run constantly. When these diagnostics are running, the PCM will force the engine to run rich for seemly no reason. IF you're watching the scan tool you'll notice the fuel trims maxing out (+16%) and just hanging there. They won't come down until you either floor the gas or decelerate to a stop. The only way to prevent these tests from running continuously is to allow the trouble codes for these tests to set. Once the codes set, the tests will no longer be run. Like I said, just set up the programming so these codes can set but not turn on the check engine light (ie: set to "No MIL").

I have a performance 3" Cat I paid $125 some for on Summit Racing, so that shouldn't be a problem.

I believe the reason my buddy used the 99 PCM for this swap is because it was easy to get VATS working on this car, which is a 95 Regal. I have no idea how the VATS system works or what would need to be done. Will this be a simple matter of swapping PCM's, buying the hptuners credits, writing a tune, and firing up the car? Will anything else need to be done?

We did have to re-wire the trans connector for 3 of the pins that are different between 96-02 and 03 transmissions, so I imagine I'd have to get that done as well?

Thanks for the help!

I just realized something; you're only 3.5 hours away. If I drove to your location with a 03 GTP PCM and an HPTuners setup, would you be able to help me get this working? You have no idea how much I'd appreciate it. I just really want my car to be reliable as a daily driver and these transmission issues have had me completely baffled.

[This message has been edited by XtremeRevolution (edited 02-08-2011).]

quote Originally posted by XtremeRevolution: I have a performance 3" Cat I paid $125 some for on Summit Racing, so that shouldn't be a problem. I believe the reason my buddy used the 99 PCM for this swap is because it was easy to get VATS working on this car, which is a 95 Regal. I have no idea how the VATS system works or what would need to be done. Will this be a simple matter of swapping PCM's, buying the hptuners credits, writing a tune, and firing up the car? Will anything else need to be done? We did have to re-wire the trans connector for 3 of the pins that are different between 96-02 and 03 transmissions, so I imagine I'd have to get that done as well? Thanks for the help!

What engine came stock in your 95 Regal? Does the ignition key have the resistor pellet in it?

I don't know if HP Tuners gives you access to the "VATS Injector Disable Time" constant for the 03 GTP. I don't think it does. I have TunerCat OBD2 and it does give me access to this so I can change it.

The 03 Grand Prix did use a PassKey3 system; however the VATS signal was still transmitted to the PCM along that blue wire like older cars used and I think it is the same signal (50hz?) as was used in the PassKey2 systems. So if your 95 Regal has a working PassKey2 system, you should be able to use the stock fuel enable signal wire coming from that system that went to the original PCM and it should work with this 03 PCM/programming. I say "should" because I've never tried it.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: What engine came stock in your 95 Regal? Does the ignition key have the resistor pellet in it? I don't know if HP Tuners gives you access to the "VATS Injector Disable Time" constant for the 03 GTP. I don't think it does. I have TunerCat OBD2 and it does give me access to this so I can change it. The 03 Grand Prix did use a PassKey3 system; however the VATS signal was still transmitted to the PCM along that blue wire like older cars used and I think it is the same signal (50hz?) as was used in the PassKey2 systems. So if your 95 Regal has a working PassKey2 system, you should be able to use the stock fuel enable signal wire coming from that system that went to the original PCM and it should work with this 03 PCM/programming. I say "should" because I've never tried it.

My key does have that resister pellet in it, and the engine was a Series 1 3800, L27. Not sure what version PassKey system is in there, but I presume it works. Would you mind giving me a hand with this if I drove over to your area one weekend? I don't have a lot of money, but I can definitely give you some cash for your time. It seems like you would know what to do in this situation. I'm a straight up guy and I don't screw people over. I'm a moderator on GMForum and have been on w-body for a pretty long time (almost 6000 posts) and people know I'm honest.

[This message has been edited by XtremeRevolution (edited 02-08-2011).]

quote Originally posted by XtremeRevolution: My key does have that resister pellet in it, and the engine was a Series 1 3800, L27. Not sure what version PassKey system is in there, but I presume it works. Would you mind giving me a hand with this if I drove over to your area one weekend? I don't have a lot of money, but I can definitely give you some cash for your time. It seems like you would know what to do in this situation. I'm a straight up guy and I don't screw people over. I'm a moderator on GMForum and have been on w-body for a pretty long time (almost 6000 posts) and people know I'm honest.

shoot me an email at: sp1@gmtuners.com

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 02-08-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: shoot me an email at: sp1@gmtuners.com

Email sent.

quote Originally posted by XtremeRevolution: since the 4T65E is a pile of garbage. I hear the Getrag 282 and the L67 are a popular combo among Fiero guys, so that's why I came here.

Not to bust things up here, but don't most fiero guys ditch the 282 in favor of a 4T65E-HD for it's increased power handeling ability?

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Not to bust things up here, but don't most fiero guys ditch the 282 in favor of a 4T65E-HD for it's increased power handeling ability?

the 4T65E-HD is a ticking time bomb and in stock form does not take more than 350lb-ft well at all with the L67, at least not long term. In addition, pre-2003 models had common failures with the 4th drive shaft (or something of that nature), and the PCS and 1-2 shift solenoids are common failures. The Getrag 282 takes plenty of power and the only concern (at least with w-body swapped guys) is the case cracking. The case cracks long before the internals ever fail. Additional mounting braces on the case and tight bolts help prevent this.

The only reason why I'm going to continue using my HD-upgraded 4T65E (35:35 sprockets with the stock HD diff for 3.29 gearing) is because its easier and cheaper to get this PCM to work right than it is to swap the 282 in, and I can't afford the downtime right now.

[This message has been edited by XtremeRevolution (edited 02-08-2011).]

Not sure if you are aware or not, but there are hardened 4th input hubs, hardened pump drive rods, and hardened input hubs readily available for the 4T65. Along with many other upgradable parts, such as blue plate clutches, shift kits, HD drive chains, and probably a few other goodies too (obviously the HD diff is an improvement over the non-HD). I've heard you can build them to take 1,000+hp? I don't think you can do that with the 282? But I can't speak from first hand experience, I don't know which trans would win in a heavy weight boxing match?....assuming both were built with the best of parts all the way through.

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Not sure if you are aware or not, but there are hardened 4th input hubs, hardened pump drive rods, and hardened input hubs readily available for the 4T65. Along with many other upgradable parts, such as blue plate clutches, shift kits, HD drive chains, and probably a few other goodies too (obviously the HD diff is an improvement over the non-HD). I've heard you can build them to take 1,000+hp? I don't think you can do that with the 282? But I can't speak from first hand experience, I don't know which trans would win in a heavy weight boxing match?....assuming both were built with the best of parts all the way through.

I know those are available. I also know they cost money and a rebuild, and for the money you'd spend trying to beef up your heavy 4T65E that draws 20% of your power, you could swap a 282, brace it well, get a Spec Stage 3 clutch, and have something that only draws 13% of your power instead. More power to the wheels, quicker shifts, better fuel economy, lighter overall weight which will likely shave .1 in the 1/4 mile, and the list goes on. That, and the thrill of shifting your own gears.

There are a very very few number of people who build 3800's to hit 1000+ hp.

quote Originally posted by XtremeRevolution: I know those are available. I also know they cost money and a rebuild, and for the money you'd spend trying to beef up your heavy 4T65E that draws 20% of your power, you could swap a 282, brace it well, get a Spec Stage 3 clutch, and have something that only draws 13% of your power instead. More power to the wheels, quicker shifts, better fuel economy, lighter overall weight which will likely shave .1 in the 1/4 mile, and the list goes on. That, and the thrill of shifting your own gears. There are a very very few number of people who build 3800's to hit 1000+ hp.

It cost money to rebuild a manual trans too. The spec stage 3 runs about $310 plus shipping, the stage 3+ is $465 plus shipping. The auto trans seems to be the favor around here because it produces quicker and more consistant shifts. But I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm just relaying some info I have picked up on here.

Have you thought about an F23 5 speed? It seems like a favorite right now with the fiero guys. It's cheap, it's stronger than the 282, and it isn't too hard of a swap (compared to an F40 6 speed for example). I know you weren't talking about an F40, I'm just saying that by comparison of swaps, an F23 should be about the same as swapping a 282 into your car.

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: It cost money to rebuild a manual trans too. The spec stage 3 runs about $310 plus shipping, the stage 3+ is $465 plus shipping. The auto trans seems to be the favor around here because it produces quicker and more consistant shifts. But I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm just relaying some info I have picked up on here. Have you thought about an F23 5 speed? It seems like a favorite right now with the fiero guys. It's cheap, it's stronger than the 282, and it isn't too hard of a swap (compared to an F40 6 speed for example). I know you weren't talking about an F40, I'm just saying that by comparison of swaps, an F23 should be about the same as swapping a 282 into your car.

Actually, the Spec Stage 3 runs $278 shipped on ebay, and there are occasional 10% off discounts that bring it down to nearly $250. In addition, that $278 shipped price is or best offer. I've had it bookmarked for a long time.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...me=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

As for the F23, I'm not sure how well it would work in a w-body car. I don't recall it ever having been done. The reason why everyone goes with the 282 is because the 88-90 Grand Prix and Cutlass Supreme came with it optional, so converting your car to a 5 speed manual is a simple matter of pulling everything needed from the donor car, and it literally bolts right up, at least with the stock engines. Considering I have an L67 swapped in, it complicates things a bit.

I know people cannot swap the 282 from a J-body because mounting the transmission is impossible. It has been tried a dozen times and the consensus is that you need a 282 from a w-body. the 284 is another option, but the severe deficiencies are the expensive clutches (twice as expensive as the 282), the fact that they cannot be rebuilt (find me a rebuild kit and I'll kiss your feet), and people seem to think they're worth their weight in gold. Not only that, but the swap parts are very difficult to find.

If the F23 can be mounted easily and sourced easily as well, perhaps it would be an option, but when 282 w-body cars are being sold complete on craigslist for as little as $550 across the country, it makes a lot more sense to buy a donor car that has all the parts that would bolt in perfectly, then sell the rest of the car for scrap. Its ultimately the most cost effective solution, and with the exception of the OFA, you end up spending around $500 for the entire 5 speed swap, stage 3 clutch included.

[This message has been edited by XtremeRevolution (edited 02-09-2011).]