Between JustinBart and I, we have managed to break quite a few fuel pumps running E85.

The pumps we have been using are specifically e85 rated, and run in cars for 100k+ miles running strictly on E85/E100. For some reason, we have managed to break 4 or 5 of them in the last year or so.

I finally got ahold of an engineer at a fuel pump manufacturing company, and she was mentioning that there is a possibility of electroplating my brushes/bearings/whatever in the fuel pump when used in E85 fuel.

This could make sense, as the fiero uses all metal parts... all of which are nearly perfectly grounded to the battery, giving the E85 fuel a very efficient anode to negative, and my fuel pump a fairly concentrated cathode. (may have switched those around)

I could see this being an issue as the pumps i have are not really locking up solid, as much as they are just not running anymore... Usually I can beat the pumps up a bit and they will spring back to life for a few miles.

I suppose this is where my understanding of the subject grays out, and I am asking for some advice from the more chemical engineering types out there.

The navy has a similar problem with hulls of ships. They put a sacrificial plate on the side of the ship that degrades and has to be replaced. Perhaps you could do something similar safely so that your fuel pump is no longer the point of degradation.

Maybe...

You've got counterfeit pump? Ebay great for counterfeit/fake allot of things.

You have power/ground problem? Bad power and/or ground will eat pumps. See my cave, Electric motor and wire service.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

Power is fresh (swapped, so I went overkill with everything). I have a 60 amp relay running off the alternator post and grounds straight to the main battery ground on the trans bolt.

The pumps are junkyard OEM, I live around the corner from the company that makes them and the confirmed they made them.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: For some reason, we have managed to break 4 or 5 of them in the last year or so.

By "break" do you mean that the pump internals have responded like an anode and been "plated" by contaminants in the fuel?

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I finally got ahold of an engineer at a fuel pump manufacturing company, and she was mentioning that there is a possibility of electroplating my brushes/bearings/whatever in the fuel pump when used in E85 fuel.

Aside from electroplating I would suggest investigating electroless nickel plating. Nickel is a friction reducer and is incredibly durable when plated chemically, rather than with an electroplating process.

[This message has been edited by lateFormula (edited 05-13-2011).]

Sound like Some kind of electrical or pluming problem...

Your car eats fuel pump that's rated 100,000+ miles. 1-2 maybe bad but 4-5? very small chance of that... And Most cars uses SS tank for flex fuel...

You're wiring is hosed somewhere. Maybe missing a important ground?

You've blocked fuel flow. Pump need fuel to flow constantly, needs it to cool off. Filter, sock, regulator, return line, etc, must be in good working order. Check return line doesn't go to vent output on tank. Switching return and vent will cause problem... many vent output has a blockage built in.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

quote Originally posted by theogre: Sound like Some kind of electrical or pluming problem... Your car eats fuel pump that's rated 100,000+ miles. 1-2 maybe bad but 4-5? very small chance of that... And Most cars uses SS tank for flex fuel... You're wiring is hosed somewhere. Maybe missing a important ground? You've blocked fuel flow. Pump need fuel to flow constantly, needs it to cool off. Filter, sock, regulator, return line, etc, must be in good working order. Check return line doesn't go to vent output on tank. Switching return and vent will cause problem... many vent output has a blockage built in.

Bad wiring between 3 different cars (I forgot to mention my friends grand prix) seems a bit strange... Like I said every bit of the wiring has been fresh and aftermarket from day one for all cars we have ran these in. The only thing the 3 cars really had in common were metal/grounded tanks and E85.

Pressure has been steady, although a bit higher than what the pump normally sees stock. We did think that pressure was causing issues so I installed a 45ish psi pop valve in the tank. That one still failed in the same amount of time.

Even if your pumps are rated for E85, Ethanol is corroding the inside of your tank. There are metallic compounds in the fuel floating around, and perhaps they can be deposited on the brushes of the fuel pump motor because of the anode/cathode thing set up by the motor. (this is an non-chemist explanation.. )

http://www.gie.com/about_us...20Corrosion%20-1.pdf

Have you thought about running an external in-line pump?

Just wondering, how do the inside of your tanks look? I know that E10 seems to have caused the gas tanks in a lot of rigs I work on to create a lot of rust on all the mild steel innards. I wonder if the same thing is happening to you? Fuel pumps don't react well to even a little bit of rust in the wrong place...

quote Originally posted by kingchr: Just wondering, how do the inside of your tanks look? I know that E10 seems to have caused the gas tanks in a lot of rigs I work on to create a lot of rust on all the mild steel innards. I wonder if the same thing is happening to you? Fuel pumps don't react well to even a little bit of rust in the wrong place...

Its not bad, but it may just not "look" bad.

quote Have you thought about running an external in-line pump

I have thought about many things... The problem with external pumps is price, flow rating, and most are sensitive to dirt. The filters used in most externals have to be fairly small, which means they get clogged up easily coming from a metal tank with e85 in it.

first thing I would ask is are you letting the fuel sit around for a long time? ethanol is not a highly corrosive fuel, but when it sits around it gets water separation over time, then it is.

I've ran E85 in my 3400 turbo Z24 for 5 years now (except for winter, switch to gas since then since its in storage), and I havent had any trouble with it...

I suspect that sitting for a while might be what has caused most of the damage that I have observed.

does your tank has enough garbage in it that you think that a small (fine) filter would clog quickly? If it does, then I can see how you might be going through pumps. They don't react well to debris...

^^yes, its good practice to replace your fuel filter shortly after running E85. Ethanol Cleans your fuel system much more than gasoline ever could, and all that crap ends up in the filter (fuel pump strainer too should be changed)

[This message has been edited by scott0999 (edited 05-14-2011).]

Dark has been running E85 for a while now though right? I figured that the amount of crud should go down the longer you run it, provided of course you don't park it long term with half a tank of fuel... However I know nothing about E85, having only fairly recently been forced to deal with E10.

quote Originally posted by kingchr: Dark has been running E85 for a while now though right? I figured that the amount of crud should go down the longer you run it, provided of course you don't park it long term with half a tank of fuel... However I know nothing about E85, having only fairly recently been forced to deal with E10.

Long enough to kill off a few fuel pumps.

The fact that I know people that run E85 on other fuel pumps (some that enigneers have told me would last days or weeks) in metal fuel tanks... is quite frustrating.

Maybe there is something special about Fiero metal fuel tanks.

What's the octane of E85? I have a stock 2.8 and I cannot use regular E10, gotta have 89 octane before the car settles down.

I wonder if you put an anode rod, as used in electric hot water heaters, in the gas tank, if that would solve the problem?

quote Originally posted by Gall757: What's the octane of E85? I have a stock 2.8 and I cannot use regular E10, gotta have 89 octane before the car settles down.

105 - 110+

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.53@126.7

Might have to sacrifice one of the tanks and cut it open to see whats really going on in there, the baffles have a way of looking clean while the tank itself is a mess, I dealt with this with two of my tanks before I gave up on the stock tank and had the aluminum one made. Even though Im not running E85 its nice to know Im ready to.

-Joe

This is one of the reasons that the regulations for the modern cars rated to run E85 requires use of a composite fuel tank.

If you want to run E85 for an extended period of time in a Fiero, your only real options are to find someone to make a custom composite tank rated to handle that much Ethanol, or get the whole inside of the Fiero tank coated with something that will not dissolve in petroleum or etnaol fuels, and that will insulate the tank from the fuel.

Or run an external pump.

quote Originally posted by Gall757: Maybe there is something special about Fiero metal fuel tanks. What's the octane of E85? I have a stock 2.8 and I cannot use regular E10, gotta have 89 octane before the car settles down.

If your stock 2.8 isn't running ok on 87, then there is something else wrong with the engine that you need to fix. Given that description, I'd check the plugs, engine ground, ignition components, and the cat.

quote Originally posted by dobey: If your stock 2.8 isn't running ok on 87, then there is something else wrong with the engine that you need to fix. Given that description, I'd check the plugs, engine ground, ignition components, and the cat.

And, of course, the timing.

quote Originally posted by TopNotch: And, of course, the timing.

Implied as part of "ignition components" there.

quote Originally posted by 1fatcat: Or run an external pump.

SIgh..

From what you've told us, it sounds like YOUR PUMP IS THE ANODE of electrolosis. You need to either run an external pump, or completely isolate the metal tank from ground. Which one would be cheaper and easier?

No external pump idea would involve less than $450. Internal with isolation, would cost no more than $100... And I also am building another fiero to run on E85 right now as well.. So, I could possibly save quite a bit there.

I have the front compartment of my fiero fairly gutted out right now, so I am considering the chances of putting a fuel cell up there safely. I also may be able to find some type of semi proper shaped premade composite fuel tank that fits where the current fiero tank is.

I just don't know how you plan to isolate the metal tank from ground? Whether it's from the inside or the outside. Sure, you could coat the tank (inside or outside), but I doubt that will be a long term fix.

Maybe you could use a small, remote plastic tank to house the fuel pump? (like a 1 gallon plastic gas "can"?) Safety issues start to arise with this, however.

I have the resources to make a completely custom size and shape tank. Our tanks are made of 5053 aluminum which has been indicated as safe for ethanol. I'm not trying to make a buck off advertising this as I don't make anything off of the tanks we sell, I just wanted to offer a product that will help the fiero community and keep the cost low (which Is why I don't take a cut). The tank we currently have is larger than stock and runs 300 plus actual shipping, I doubt it would be much difference to have him make a front mount tank. Pm me if you are interested I would just need some dimensions from you to make it happen.

some pictures of a failed pump

I ran a cheap ebay 255 lph pump for than a year with no problems. I now run an aeromotive an1000 just for extra flow. I have not had any problem with either. e85 draws water in like a sponge. It's a good idea to check your carbon filter and gas cap for cracks or leaks. The more water in the fuel the more corrosive the mix is. Also E85 requires 30% more fuel than gas so maybe your just maxing the pump out.

[This message has been edited by buildamonster (edited 06-10-2011).]

Why do you run E85 ? Use reg gas and problem solved.... You always have problems using something that a system is not designed for.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Why do you run E85 ? Use reg gas and problem solved.... You always have problems using something that a system is not designed for.

A lot of people with forced induction like E85 because of it's high octane at a cheap price. I don't think I caught what the OP is running it in, but on a NA engine it probably isn't a benefit to much of anything. Unless high compression is involved, but I don't know much about the use of E85 in high compression engines(never researched it).

Besides, reg gas is old school. It's time people started testing the waters with alternative fuels. Can't make progress if you are so stuck on using the same thing all the time, just because it works and is easier.

try getting your tank red-coated inside, and rubbercoat the outside, then it wouldnt have any ground to electroplate the pumps with? just an idea

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Why do you run E85 ? Use reg gas and problem solved.... You always have problems using something that a system is not designed for.

because I cant make 600whp with my 2.8L with a turbo kit on 87 octane like you can.

try an aluminum tank.... you cant electroplate aluminum to another metal only another metal to aluminum i believe.

Por15 makesfuel tank lining products, and since they also sell an ethanol test kit, their lining was probably designed for ethanol use.