Disclaimer: All I know about this swap is what I've read from various build threads, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Since low-mileage L67s are getting harder to find (all the ones close to me have either 150K+ miles, or have been on fire), I bought myself a low-mileage L32, with the intent of putting it into my '87 GT.

Now, I haven't found much info on using the Series 3 as a Series 3. I know MountainHiBlue87GT has his like that, with throttle-by-wire and everything. According to https://www.fiero.nl/cgi-bin...orum=2&thread=108414, you'd need the PCM, BCM + key, and transmission off of the donor car in order to do the swap, so that's out of the question for me unless the PCM tuners have changed much since then (I'd at least like to run it with a manual transmission).

Presumably, I need to run my Series 3 as a Series 2. This appears to involve using a Series 2 PCM, wiring harness, (possibly injectors), fuel pressure regulator, throttle body, and MAF sensor. Does this sound about right?

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'87 Pontiac Fiero GT. Hopefully back on the road soon.

Yes you can run it either as a Series II or Series III

You can run it with a return fuel delivery system (Seroes II)or a returnless fuel delivery system (Series III)

Harness wise you will want to start with the harness that fits the connectors on your engine (ie your Series III harness)

You can run the injectors that came with your engine (Series III)

If you are running a Series II throttle body, your MAF has to fit the throttle body. Your PCM has to be programmed for your MAF also.

Send it all to me with some money, give me some time and you will get back something that looks like this.......well maybe not exactly like this...it all depends on how much you wanna spend.....

If you decide to swap in an L32 series III and run it exactly as it was packaged you will also need the gas pedal module . It will plug into the main harness and will not require a throttle cable as its ETC. ETC/DBW been done before but this swap and all other swaps will also require some PCM programming to get all of the unnecessary DTC's removed.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: If you decide to swap in an L32 series III and run it exactly as it was packaged you will also need the gas pedal module . It will plug into the main harness and will not require a throttle cable as its ETC. ETC/DBW been done before but this swap and all other swaps will also require some PCM programming to get all of the unnecessary DTC's removed.

I've been working under the assumption that the Series 3 PCM can't/won't work without the donor's automatic transmission. If it can be coaxed to allow a manual transmission, I'd go that route for sure.

Otherwise, it seems that using it as a Series 2 is my only option.

quote Originally posted by raccoons: I've been working under the assumption that the Series 3 PCM can't/won't work without the donor's automatic transmission. If it can be coaxed to allow a manual transmission, I'd go that route for sure. Otherwise, it seems that using it as a Series 2 is my only option.

Dump the DBW as is isnt worth the trouble plus very few have pulled it off and can really think of one that did not continue to have issues with it...Grab an adapter/S2 throttle body, wire it for a 99 along with the PCM and call it a day....Mate to a 5 speed with no issues.....

I'm doing a S3 right now. After looking at options I went with a 2003 S2 harness/ECM and a ZZP N* TB. phonedawgz did my harness (awesome work!) and changed the injectors plugs to the new ones. Ryan did the ECM tuning.

Unless you are looking to use the tap shift option it is a lot easier to just go with a series II PCM and swap the throttle body over to a Northstar or LS1 and wire every thing to match. For a manual tranny definitely go with the series II PCM. Dan

I have a 3800 SC Series III engine (out of 2006 GTP) installed with the N* tv, cam, intercooler, 3.4 pulley, etc. and a manual transmission. The swap used ZZP fuel logs and runs quite well even though I am not tuned for max performance.

Nelson

quote Originally posted by hnthomps: I have a 3800 SC Series III engine (out of 2006 GTP) installed with the N* tv, cam, intercooler, 3.4 pulley, etc. and a manual transmission. The swap used ZZP fuel logs and runs quite well even though I am not tuned for max performance. Nelson

A good tune is like going from a 3.4 to a 3.0 pulley in performance and 24MPG to 30MPG at the pump.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Dump the DBW as is isnt worth the trouble plus very few have pulled it off and can really think of one that did not continue to have issues with it...Grab an adapter/S2 throttle body, wire it for a 99 along with the PCM and call it a day....Mate to a 5 speed with no issues.....

Yeah, ETC/DBW can be a PITA. There were in fact few that have true series III engines operating on series III controls.
We ended up taking the simple approach but running a series III engine with series II controls is not strictly plug and play. If you change the MAF, TB or both, you change the air flow characteristcs. The CAI also has a bearing on the flow as does the Gen V supercharger. The O2 sensor has to be changed to be compatible with the PCM year and if you use any earlier harness to build upon the injector connectors will all need to be changed from EV1 to the EV6 design..
On my personal swap the tuning became quite a chore but after about a dozen mods we got it where the LTFT's are either at 0 or within +/- 3 and the WOT acceleration enrichment averages about 11.6:1 to 12:1. Mileage on the highway is 27-28 MPG.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Edit to remove incorrect info for anyone looking in the future......

[This message has been edited by MstangsBware (edited 07-15-2011).]

All right guys, so it sounds like my best bet is to shop around for a '98-02 harness and PCM, Series 2 TB and MAF (for ease of tuning), and re-use the injector connectors off my Series 3 harness.

Moving onto the topic of clutches, I intend this to be a daily driver, which means getting stuck in traffic. Thus, I'm heavily leaning towards the Spec stage 3+; has anybody had problems with these?

Ditto to what phonedawgz, mstangs, and others have said. If you are going to be using a manual trans, you'll want to use a Series 2 PCM. One of the problems people are having with the Series 3 PCMs is aftermarket tuning software support. HP Tuners only supports up to 2005 model year Series 3 PCMs and they don't have many ETC governing tables mapped out. This could leave you with a system that reacts slowly to throttle inputs which can get annoying (and there's no way to fix it until those ETC tables get mapped out).

Even if you were going to go with the OE auto trans (4T65-E), I can't think of a good reason why you would want to keep the Series 3 PCM except if you wanted to use the TAPShift system. Series 2 PCMs don't support TAPShift; and if your 4T65-E trans is capable of that function, the only way to make it work is to use a Series 3 PCM. But as it was mentioned earlier, your will also need to install the BCM along with the Series 3 PCM because VATS cannot be turned off in the programming of this PCM by the currently available tuning software.

I would keep the returnless Series 3 fuel rail that's on your engine now (unless you're going with aftermarket rails and/or an intercooler) and just remote-mount a fuel pressure regulator down by the filter. This rail can be turned around on the engine and when done will look pretty clean.





-ryan

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OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

quote Originally posted by raccoons: All right guys, so it sounds like my best bet is to shop around for a '98-02 harness and PCM, Series 2 TB and MAF (for ease of tuning), and re-use the injector connectors off my Series 3 harness. Moving onto the topic of clutches, I intend this to be a daily driver, which means getting stuck in traffic. Thus, I'm heavily leaning towards the Spec stage 3+; has anybody had problems with these?

I have used SPEC 3 clutches in all the manual swaps I have done...No issues with them....

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: On your swap did you change the knock sensors to S2? I just thought about the KR issues you have had with the swap....A god friend swapped in a S3 with S2 parts but did not change the knock sensors out at first...Tried tuning the car and had issues with KR that would just not go away....He called me up to talk about it and just happen to read a few weeks earlier where they where not the same and did not interchange....He swapped in the S2 knock sensors and all was good.....

Whoa! So are you saying you can't use S3 knock sensors when running S2 ECMs? I need to know if this is 100% true all times now. I have two S3 knock sensors in mine and it is major PITA to change the rear one. I would prefer to know now and changes them if really needed before I put the cradle back. I'm running a 2003 ECM.

AC Delco parts catalog says S2 and S3 knock sensors are the same...

http://parts-catalog.acdelc...atalog=&parttype=315

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: AC Delco parts catalog says S2 and S3 knock sensors are the same... http://parts-catalog.acdelc...atalog=&parttype=315

Thanks

I have used the series III knock sensors on many swaps using the series III engines running series II PCM's with no problems at all. Dan

I edited out the incorrect info above for future searchers....

[This message has been edited by MstangsBware (edited 07-15-2011).]

I was having problems with my Series 3 knock sensors. Problem went away when swapped them out for series 2 ones. Might have been just a faulty sensor or connection problem.

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.53@126.7

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: I was having problems with my Series 3 knock sensors. Problem went away when swapped them out for series 2 ones. Might have been just a faulty sensor or connection problem.

What issues. Buddy was seeing knock that would not go away.

A possibility to think about is perhaps the replacement knock sensors would work for both S2 and S3, but perhaps the original ones are not the same.

Just a possibility.

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: What issues. Buddy was seeing knock that would not go away.

I kept going into some kinda of spark limp mode? A knock sensor code would set then I would see knock retard anytime I was under a load. My timing was getting cut down to 2-3*

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.53@126.7

Now, to re-hijack my thread

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: I have used SPEC 3 clutches in all the manual swaps I have done...No issues with them....

Thanks, it looks like I'll be using a Spec 3. Now, if only I could get Jeremy to answer my question... I think he's off for the weekend, so no major worries.

Actually, a question for you, MstangsBware: Have you gotten away with not using a cat for Texas cars? Given that my car won't need to pass emission tests next year, I'd rather omit the cat if possible.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: -ryan

Now, an interesting thing I see in this picture is that there's no dogbone, and the 3800 thermostat is being used. Do you know how many engine mounts you needed to compensate for the missing dogbone? My engine came with the dogbone bracket pre-shattered, and I'm not too keen on replacing it only to have it shatter somewhere in the near future, so I'd rather use a bunch of mounts below.

quote Originally posted by raccoons: Now, to re-hijack my thread Now, an interesting thing I see in this picture is that there's no dogbone, and the 3800 thermostat is being used. Do you know how many engine mounts you needed to compensate for the missing dogbone? My engine came with the dogbone bracket pre-shattered, and I'm not too keen on replacing it only to have it shatter somewhere in the near future, so I'd rather use a bunch of mounts below.

I dont run a CAT on my car but I live in an emissions free county and the place I take it to doesn't care...All the others I have built I have used bullet style high flow CATs exept the car I built for Cali which used the OEM 3800 CAT......


If you build your own mounts and mount it on 4 corners with poly then you can get away without a upper dogbone from reading what others have done. On all my swaps I have used vendor poly mounts that are setup like the Fieros. When the Alt is low mounted I make an upper dogbone setup to use the dogbone in the stock location. One swaps where the Alt is left up top I use a lower strut type mount that runs from the stock Alt mount to a welded box on the cradle....Both methods work very well.....The Alt in the stock location with vendor mounts will require you to notch the decklid some....

I

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: If you build your own mounts and mount it on 4 corners with poly then you can get away without a upper dogbone from reading what others have done. I

That's what I was thinking: a mount on each corner of the engine, plus the two transmission mounts should keep everything nice and steady. My dogbone mount is broken in 4 or 5 different places, which doesn't really inspire much confidence in its strength.

As for the alternator, my engine didn't come with one, so there's no sense in mounting a Fiero alt up high. Besides, I want to be one of the cool kids with a clean-looking engine bay

Edit: Actually, now that I've thought about it more, not using the dogbone bracket means I can leave the (old, unused) alternator bracket installed; by doing this, I can retain the pulley and not worry about finding one that'll fit and mounting it up. I'd have to cap the heater lines where they (try to) exit at the alt bracket.

[This message has been edited by raccoons (edited 07-17-2011).]

quote Originally posted by raccoons: That's what I was thinking: a mount on each corner of the engine, plus the two transmission mounts should keep everything nice and steady. My dogbone mount is broken in 4 or 5 different places, which doesn't really inspire much confidence in its strength. As for the alternator, my engine didn't come with one, so there's no sense in mounting a Fiero alt up high. Besides, I want to be one of the cool kids with a clean-looking engine bay Edit: Actually, now that I've thought about it more, not using the dogbone bracket means I can leave the (old, unused) alternator bracket installed; by doing this, I can retain the pulley and not worry about finding one that'll fit and mounting it up. I'd have to cap the heater lines where they (try to) exit at the alt bracket.

Even if I was to use 4 mounts to mount the motor/trans I would still use a lower strut mount type setup...It may not be needed but it is only an extra 30 minutes of work and a fail safe just in case...Use the stock 3800 Alt mount that came with the motor and pick up a good used 3800 Alt....All thats needed to run it this way is a extra ribbed pulley and a small stud cut off along with the correct length belt.......

Thanks once again, dude. One more thing, I'm a junkyard with plenty of cars, but no 3800 sc. I'm thinking about grabbing a 3800 na harness, northstar throttle body and ls1 maf, I think that'll work. I know Dennis lagrua is using that tb/maf combo, and I believe the 3800 na harness is the same as a sc harness?

quote Originally posted by raccoons: Thanks once again, dude. One more thing, I'm a junkyard with plenty of cars, but no 3800 sc. I'm thinking about grabbing a 3800 na harness, northstar throttle body and ls1 maf, I think that'll work. I know Dennis lagrua is using that tb/maf combo, and I believe the 3800 na harness is the same as a sc harness?

All 3800 harnesses are in fact the same but for one additional wire for the BBV on the supercharged motor.
If you wish to use the larger N* TB and a suitably large MAF like the SLP LS1 you can do it but you'll need an N* adapter plate, new connectors (or connector adapters) for the LS1 MAF (IAT sensor is integral) , and a bit of PCM programming (where among other things you import the LS1 MAF table values into the gtp table) BTW a STOCK LS1 MAF will restrict the N* TB flow a bit. The SLP MAF has a larger flow area.
It should be remembered that when running a series three engine w series II controls the tuning will be way off. The series III breathes better than the series II and is tuned for 20 additional horsepower, Expect to do some tuning adjustments to the MAF curve, VE vs RPM vs Time table and acceleration enrichment tables. If you tune yourself HP Tuners is the most up-to-date lap top editor and scanner to use but some guys use the older and no longer supported DHP to save a few bucks.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: All 3800 harnesses are in fact the same but for one additional wire for the BBV on the supercharged motor.

That's comforting to know. There's a couple dozen 3800s in the yard, so I'll be able to get a good harness. Coincidentally, I did find a L67 after pulling a Northstar TB, but they wanted $80 for the N* TB and a stupid bracket attached to it, so I left it behind. There weren't any LS1s anyways, so I'll just grab the L67 TB/MAF later this week.

quote It should be remembered that when running a series three engine w series II controls the tuning will be way off. The series III breathes better than the series II and is tuned for 20 additional horsepower, Expect to do some tuning adjustments to the MAF curve, VE vs RPM vs Time table and acceleration enrichment tables. If you tune yourself HP Tuners is the most up-to-date lap top editor and scanner to use but some guys use the older and no longer supported DHP to save a few bucks.

Yep, I'm not quite looking forward to that. Oh well.

All 3800 harnesses are not the same.

Some 3800 S2 NA don't have a MAP

3800 NA that do have a MAP have a different MAP connector than the two bar MAP

The 3800 SC S3 uses two MAP connectors that both are different than the 3800 SC2 single MAP connector.

The MAP on a 3800 NA is located in a different place than on a SC

If you are going to take it all apart that minimizes the differences.

2003+ 4T65E transmissions use more pins on the circular connector than the pre 2003 transmissions

Some 4T65E don't have the select switch on them.

'97 and earlier use the 4T60E transmission which have totally different connectors than the 4T65E

Some 3800 use the EV1 and others use the EV6 connectors on the injectors.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 07-22-2011).]

Now that we're on the topic of harnesses, I have been thinking about getting the blue and clear pcm connectors off a junkyard car, and butchering my series 3 harness to hook it up to the series 2 PCm. "butchering" involves deleting unnecessary sensors, adding things if the pcm requires them. Basically, converting the series 3 harness to a series 2 setup. Would this work, or is there a reason why everyone avoids it?

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...110502-2-087655.html

Thanks, guys. A couple more questions:

I plan on having A/C, so I'm guessing I should use a series 3 compressor (since I'll be using the connectors off of my series 3 harness). Or, is there something funky about the series 3 compressor that would make me want to use the series 2?

After reading a lot of threads, I've found that several notable PFF members have said that using the Camaro flywheel without re-balancing doesn't cause any issues; however, I'm not sure if that still applies with the series 3 engine. I'm hoping to find a good machine shop in my area, but if that fails, do you guys think it'll be harmful to run the Camaro flywheel as-is?

quote Originally posted by raccoons: Thanks, guys. A couple more questions: I plan on having A/C, so I'm guessing I should use a series 3 compressor (since I'll be using the connectors off of my series 3 harness). Or, is there something funky about the series 3 compressor that would make me want to use the series 2? After reading a lot of threads, I've found that several notable PFF members have said that using the Camaro flywheel without re-balancing doesn't cause any issues; however, I'm not sure if that still applies with the series 3 engine. I'm hoping to find a good machine shop in my area, but if that fails, do you guys think it'll be harmful to run the Camaro flywheel as-is?

Either compressor will work the only differance is the S3 does not use a mounting bracket and the hoses ends are differant. Never had any issues with running an unbalanced flywheel with S2/3 swaps....Just make sure the machine shop cuts it to the correct thickness....