Ive searched and I've searched. Cant find any write ups on it. I've got the Haynes but was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions.

Thanks and have a great night

edit' typo....

[This message has been edited by weloveour86se (edited 09-23-2011).]

You can start with my V-6 guide. 70% of it is the same for a 4 cyl engine

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/088599.html

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 09-23-2011).]

I pulled the engine in my '84 from the top. That way I could still roll the car around and not tie up a shop bay.

I pull the duke out the top, Last one i took the intake off as well and it was simple.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: You can start with my V-6 guide. 70% of it is the same for a 4 cyl engine https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/088599.html

TY Todd. Actually I've got that thread on lockdown in the next window over on my puter! lol. Musta been through it a hundred times. Great thread BTW. Thanks for taking the time to put it together. Going to use it when we pull the motor outta our 2.8 next spring. TYVM.

Like some of the others here have said maybe we could pull this motor from the top? Would it be easier that way? The motor does have those handy lift rings on top. I've been reading the downloadable service manual but a real persons experiences cant be beat.

Anyway thanks for everyones time and have a great night!

edit; dang typo again

[This message has been edited by weloveour86se (edited 09-23-2011).]

I dropped the cradle...

The first thing you should ask yourself is....are you doing a repair, or a restoration? If you are doing a repair, then it might be easier to pull it out the top and throw it back in. But...if you are doing a restoration, this is the opportunity to pull the cradle and clean up the rest of the engine bay at the same time.

I was doing a restoration, so I dropped the cradle in mine as well. Overall, the 4 cyl is easier than the V6...mainly because you have more room to work. 4 coolant hoses, two gas lines, two vacuum lines, C500, C203, ECM plugs, power distribution block, couple grounds, and the shift cable (two shift cables and a clutch line if it is a manual). Then pull the calipers and parking brake cable. Then you have the 6 nuts on top of the struts, and four cradle bolts.

Hardest part is lifting the car off it. Either you use a jack in front of the engine, which never feels safe...or a cherry picker to lift the car, which leaves the legs of the cherry picker in the way of pulling the cradle out from under it...or, I now have an A-frame to lift the car with. This was ideal, and made the process soooo easy. Nothing to get in the way...and it was a safe, secure way of lifting the car as high as I wanted to.

The ideal way to lift the car:


And...since TopNotch showed a pic of a beautiful Duke, I have to compete:


I used to look at photos like TopNotch's and mine and think "that's pretty, but it looks expensive." It isn't...it just takes a whole lot of work. We have about $400 into the entire project including the cost of the low mileage motor, new gaskets and grommets, paint and powdercoat, and an entirely new ignition system. But...I lost track of how many hours I spent cleaning, sandblasting, cleaning some more, and tracking down proper bolts to make it look right (being low miles, yours should at least have the proper bolts)...and did I mention cleaning and polishing?

quote Originally posted by CowsPatoot:

Epic pic! Love it. What roughly was the build costs of your lift? I want one. No I need one.

quote Originally posted by weloveour86se: Epic pic! Love it. What roughly was the build costs of your lift? I want one. No I need one.

Can't help with the cost...I acquired it already built. I found it on a trip up to Michigan last fall...and it happened to fit on the trailer with the Fiero I was towing back (same one lifted in that pic). It has certainly been worth every penny I paid for it...

quote Originally posted by Toddster: You can start with my V-6 guide. 70% of it is the same for a 4 cyl engine https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/088599.html

I used this guide when I pulled my 4 cyl last spring and it worked great. Took me about 6 hours total, but that includes about 2 hours I spent fabricating a little 4-wheeled cart for the engine and cradle, and it was the first time I'd ever worked on a Fiero.. I also used the engine-hoist-in-the-trunk-lock-ring method, but probably won't in the future.

No guide, but on the first page or two of the link in my sig, there's plenty of pics..

------------------


Currently in the middle of my 88 + 3800NA swap

quote Originally posted by Toddster: You can start with my V-6 guide. 70% of it is the same for a 4 cyl engine https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/088599.html

This is what I used when I dropped my cradle to pull my duke on my '86... The only thing that was different (Or at least, the only thing that caused me a headache) was the heater line hidden underneath the throttle body... Did not see it until it was far too late. Had to cut off the steel line and run a rubber hose in its stead.

As I understand, you can pull them from the top. But doing so means you have to remove the exhaust manifold. Which, the bolts have a tendency to break when you do so,. Dropping the cradle is increadibly easy... I himmed and hawed, and tried everything to avoid doing it, but it only took about 2-3 hrs to do on my first try.... exempting the rusted cradle bolts I had to spend several hours fighting with... (Would have been easier with the right tools)

Also, instead of removing the hydraulic line from the clutch slave... it's much easier to just remove the clutch slave from the transmission... it's only held in with 2 bolts, then you don't have to bleed it. (Although it's always a good idea)

After following the instructions, I managed to put it all back together again without having to read the writeup backwards. It's not nearly as daunting as it seams. First time I'd ever pulled an engine from a car.

If you do drop the cradle, make sure you pick up a set of Rodney Dickmans Aluminum Cradle Bushings to replace the rubber ones. It essentially solid-mounts your cradle, and can improve your handling.

[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 09-27-2011).]

Out the bottom, for sure. Dealing with the engine/trans mating and assembly on a cradle away from the car is way easier and faster than trying to do it in the car.

Two floor jacks, one under each side of the car at the rear jacking points just forward of the cradle is my preferred method. GM shows in the manual how to do it with one jack and a length of 4x4 wood run crossways under those jacking points, but it requires having the car up in the air high enough for the wood and jack to start with.

You'll need a dolly under the cradle to be able to roll the assembly out. If you can pull the struts out still attached to the rear suspension then you won't have to mess with getting the suspension realigned afterward, assuming it's aligned now.

Hey everyone thanks for the great tips and what not. Were now about to purchase a engine stand second hand off a local guy. Hes gonna bring it by on thursday. Then were prolly gonna rent a lift sometime after we get some essentials. Were gonna pull just the motor out of the top as we need to keep it a roller. Hopefully with some good planning we can get the motor and stand all set up on our front porch. That way it, and us, will be out of the impending Maine winter weather. We could do all our work and stay fairly warm and dry.

I figure on labelling all the connectors as I remove them one by one and write them all down. Also plan on taking lots of pics with the digi cam.

Anyone think of anything I'm gonna need out of the ordinary?

Thanks and have a great night!

My '84 is in good shape, no rust issues, and the auto trans worked fine. I chose to pull the engine out the top and keep the ability to roll the car around. Pulling the engine is comparable to most ordinary cars. Here's a tip.......remove the intake manifold and alternator brackets. If you have AC, unbolt the compressor and leave it in the car. Basically, everything on the front of the engine can stay attached. Unhook all of the wiring harness connections on the engine and lay the harness back around on the driver's side. It took me 4 hours to pull my engine because I wasn't sure it was possible to remove it from the top. I removed a lot of pieces I didn't need to. Putting the engine back in was a breeze.

quote Originally posted by Ventura: My '84 is in good shape, no rust issues, and the auto trans worked fine. I chose to pull the engine out the top and keep the ability to roll the car around. Pulling the engine is comparable to most ordinary cars. Here's a tip.......remove the intake manifold and alternator brackets. If you have AC, unbolt the compressor and leave it in the car. Basically, everything on the front of the engine can stay attached. Unhook all of the wiring harness connections on the engine and lay the harness back around on the driver's side. It took me 4 hours to pull my engine because I wasn't sure it was possible to remove it from the top. I removed a lot of pieces I didn't need to. Putting the engine back in was a breeze.

Hey great tips! TYVM. Thats pretty much how we envisioned it going. We were planning on leaving the ac compressor and disconnecting the exhaust pipe from the manifold at those spring loaded bolts at the manifold to pipe junction. I'm a lil concerned about damaging the exhaust system while trying to keep it out of the way of the lifting motor.

Edit; just thought of a question I have. Will there be enough room for the motor to shift to the right and out of the tranny with the accessories and their respective pulleys in place? Sounds like you seem to think it will be fine. Did you remove any of them? I'm a little concerned about pulleys being in the way and not allowing us to shift the motor out of the tranny.

Our cradle, tranny and suspension should all be in great working order as the car only has 20,000 something miles on it and there is no visible rust at all. It all looks too clean to need pulling. I do however understand that looks can be deceiving...

[This message has been edited by weloveour86se (edited 09-27-2011).]

I see one issue with pulling it out the top. I don't think you will have room to slide the engine far enough to the driver's side with the torque converter still attached to the engine....and if you can't spin the engine, I am not sure how you are going to get to the three bolts that attach the torque converter to the flexplate. Normally, you would spin the engine until they are in view on either side of the oil pan, and pull them out from there.

Here is a photo with the torque converter attached to the engine that shows how much room you would need....


If you did decide to pull the entire cradle, once you remove the engine from it, making it a roller again would only require the 4 cradle bolts and the 6 nuts on the tops of the struts....took me about 10 minutes to install an empty cradle last time I needed to do it.

Edit: Doh!!! Theirs is a manual...the clutch doesn't take up nearly as much space as the torque converter. To give you an idea of the room you will need...

Here is the inside of the tranny (this is an isuzu 5 speed, but it is close enough)


and here is how thick the clutch will be:

[This message has been edited by CowsPatoot (edited 09-27-2011).]

Leave the torque converter in the tranny. very easy to remove and replace those bolts when you remove the inspection plate and you won't get tranny fluid everywhere. The exhaust will stay exactly where it is after you remove the 2 spring loaded bolts at the manifold. Just be sure to remove the upper and lower alternator brackets and it's a breeze. I've done this both ways, if you don't need tranny work and are limited space out the top is best.

quote Originally posted by CowsPatoot: I see one issue with pulling it out the top. I don't think you will have room to slide the engine far enough to the driver's side with the torque converter still attached to the engine....and if you can't spin the engine, I am not sure how you are going to get to the three bolts that attach the torque converter to the flexplate. Normally, you would spin the engine until they are in view on either side of the oil pan, and pull them out from there.

TYVM Cows. Did you mean to say, slide the engine far enough to the PASS. side.?

With what youve cleared up for us about the torque converter bolts needing to be removed on our siezed motor we think you may be right. Out the bottom the cradle and all will have to come. I'm a little concerned about using the trunk latch to lift it tho. Arent there some places to hook up for the lifting under the trunk carpet or rear bumper fascia?

Also when I was poking and prodding I found this mystery bolt on top of the starter



On close examination I can see that there was threads on the end but those have been busted off. Any ideas where this sucker came from? Guess we will find out eventually

I see your problem there, Given enough time I have been lucky enough to get a locked engine to turn with a big wrench by putting 5 gallons of old oil in it and letting it sit. I don't think you want to try this one as it takes a week or more. I do believe that the engine can swing far enough to the passenger side to make it out with a little work. Best of luck to you!!

I learned some lessons taking my engine and cradle out the bottom.

1: I won't use the trunk latch ring method again because it bent the ring and then the deck lid wouldn't close properly. I've also read that the two bolts can pull out. When I lifted the car last weekend I put a chain through the rear bumper (yes, I'd removed the rear fascia). Eventually I'll get a lifting strap, since the chain did bend the ends of the bumper. This method will also help solve problem two:



2: The legs of the engine hoist get in the way of the cart I made to support the engine and cradle. Using the bumper will move the hoist back a few inches, but making the cart 4 or 5 inches taller will also help. You can see in the photo that I had to put wood blocks on the cart. I'll turn the cart 90 degrees so that it'll fit between the legs of the hoist, then add another frame to increase its height.



Overall it was still a fairly easy process, much easier than taking an engine and trans out the top of a traditional car.

quote Originally posted by weloveour86se: TYVM Cows. Did you mean to say, slide the engine far enough to the PASS. side.? With what youve cleared up for us about the torque converter bolts needing to be removed on our siezed motor we think you may be right. Out the bottom the cradle and all will have to come. I'm a little concerned about using the trunk latch to lift it tho. Arent there some places to hook up for the lifting under the trunk carpet or rear bumper fascia? Also when I was poking and prodding I found this mystery bolt on top of the starter On close examination I can see that there was threads on the end but those have been busted off. Any ideas where this sucker came from? Guess we will find out eventually

That my friend is a head bolt.

Or whats not stuck in the block of it.

Pretty common on 2.5s to break off.

And they break with no help from anyone.

quote Originally posted by VikingRedBaron: That my friend is a head bolt. Or whats not stuck in the block of it. Pretty common on 2.5s to break off. And they break with no help from anyone.

Possibly a clue as to what happend to this sleeping beauty??? Is it possible that the bolt broke and fell onto the starter and stayed there and noone ever saw it? Well at all likely? Very interesting. What would this busted head bolt do to the running condition of the motor? What problems will we need to look for?

Would prolonged driving with a busted head bolt cause catastrophic engine failure? I'm no mechanic but seems like it would.

Picked this up today




What are we gonna need to do to get the motor ready to hang on this stand? It may sit there for a few months or more. The stand will allow the motor to be rotated 360 degrees and will be a big help I think.

Thanks and have a great day.

Edit; remember we cant turn the motor at this point...

[This message has been edited by weloveour86se (edited 09-29-2011).]

For what it's worth, here's a picture story of my Duke cradle drop from beginning to end. Please feel free to save any picture that you may need for reference. I took all the shots so I could "see" how it all goes back together.

Good luck on the swap.

------------------
jetman
Silver 86 SE 2M6 4-speed, with "check wallet light"
Now fortified with 8 essential slices of bacon goodness

quote Originally posted by jetman: For what it's worth, here's a picture story of my Duke cradle drop from beginning to end. Please feel free to save any picture that you may need for reference. I took all the shots so I could "see" how it all goes back together. Good luck on the swap.

Hey Jetman TYVM for the great link to your swap pics. Im sure I'll prolly be staring at them alot in the near future. Very infomative. Now think you could swing over with that forklift? I'll buy ya a triple lobster dinner! And Thanks for the good lucks.

Hehe

Jet mans pic show is great. Wish I had done that a couple of times. His appears to be an 88 model so there will be some differences. (yours is an 86 or 87 isn't it?)

Please don't use the truck latch as a lifting point. It's just not worth the chance you'll be taking. You can use the holes in the inner trunk walls or as others have suggested, the rear bumper frame. I often use a pair of 8 ft 2X6s positioned just forward of the front cradle mounts, then lift with 2 floor jacks and use jack stands to keep it stable. If you plan on dropping the fuel tank then you don't want to do it this way because the 2X6s with block it.

As noted above, the broken bolt you found is a head bolt. Probably from the head directly above where you found it. If so that could well be the cause of your seized engine. Was there any water or coolant in the oil when you drained it? The other possibility is that is was left over from previous head work .

Good luck and work safe.

[This message has been edited by 2farnorth (edited 09-30-2011).]

Yup there it is...Busted head bolt alright. Had to take a long skinny screwdriver and dig the crud out of the hole.



So either this bolt busted and jumped outta the hole and landed between the starter and the block, (likely?) or someone dropped it and couldnt find it or something along those lines? No matter anyway. Motors coming out.

When you get the motor out and are ready to throw it away, I'd like those plastic clips for retaining the spark plug wires (if you'd be willing to sell them cheap and they're not broken)

I've got a suggestion to maybe help you down the road. You'll see on the transmission there is a huge black metal mount that covers the driver's side of it. This called a "mono-mount. This and the axles are all that holds the transmission in place when the engine is disconnected., When you take the engine off the cradle you should support area of the trans to keep it from sagging down and causing head aches trying to hook the eng back up. They are also known to be very hard on dog bone bushings and engine mounts because it allows the drive train to rock forwards and backwards a lot. There are cheaper engine mounts available if you happen to need a replacement. Those oil filled ones are expensive

My suggestion is that if you can find a set of V6 auto transmission mounts and install them you will be better off. The trans will be more stable and easier on dog bones. Plus if you ever have to change the TCC solenoid it will take an hour less time never mind the other headaches caused by the "mono-mount.

quote Originally posted by 2farnorth: I've got a suggestion to maybe help you down the road. You'll see on the transmission there is a huge black metal mount that covers the driver's side of it. This called a "mono-mount. This and the axles are all that holds the transmission in place when the engine is disconnected., When you take the engine off the cradle you should support area of the trans to keep it from sagging down and causing head aches trying to hook the eng back up. They are also known to be very hard on dog bone bushings and engine mounts because it allows the drive train to rock forwards and backwards a lot. There are cheaper engine mounts available if you happen to need a replacement. Those oil filled ones are expensive My suggestion is that if you can find a set of V6 auto transmission mounts and install them you will be better off. The trans will be more stable and easier on dog bones. Plus if you ever have to change the TCC solenoid it will take an hour less time never mind the other headaches caused by the "mono-mount.

Wow great advice Thanks for that hot bit of imfo! I'll definately look into that. The motor rolls back and forth like the mighty north sea! lol. Those liquid filled mounts are terrible, the dog bone bushing is visibly damaged towards the front. The motor has been sagging on it. You are absolutely right about the mount. TYVM.

Everythings all disconnected and were bout ready to start the lifting and cursing. Only thing left that I can find or think of is the calipers, e-brake and those little plastic snap in thingys in the fender well. Cant remember what they are called right now. Figure we'll just hang the calipers and pop the fender well thingy's. One in each well I believe. Its the ebrakes I'm not so sure about....

Thanks ALOT for everyones time!

Were waiting for a neighbor to see about a engine lift and its just a matter of time!

quote Originally posted by weloveour86se: Hey Jetman TYVM for the great link to your swap pics.

quote Originally posted by 2farnorth: Jet mans pic show is great.

Thank you for the very kind words, very appreciated.

Say guys, I've got pictures of steering columns, dog-bones,
ground straps, alternator replacement, distributor rebuilds,
motor mounts, exhaust manifold replacement and I even have
pictures of my Fiero trunk shelf project so please feel free to
download anything that you think might make your project
easier for you, it's my contribution to all of my forum friends.

Ok, how about a progress report? Are you standing in the
engine bay of your Fiero yet? Picture please?

quote Originally posted by jetman: Thank you for the very kind words, very appreciated. Say guys, I've got pictures of steering columns, dog-bones, ground straps, alternator replacement, distributor rebuilds, motor mounts, exhaust manifold replacement and I even have pictures of my Fiero trunk shelf project so please feel free to download anything that you think might make your project easier for you, it's my contribution to all of my forum friends. Ok, how about a progress report? Are you standing in the engine bay of your Fiero yet? Picture please?

Everythings loose. And I'm...Standing in the...

window looking out at the rain. My wrench hand is itchy too! Just went and got the funding for the lift together. Gotta work out the spot we have to sit the motor and stand. We need to level it and put something down that will support all the weight. Once our motors "parking spot" is sorted out were a go! TYVM for asking. Maybe tomorrow hopefully or Mon.. Weather forecast doesn't look too good and were in our "garage-way". Its what the neighbors call our driveway. lol

Edit; Nice, Fiero's snowed in, in your album Jetman on smugmug. Michigan reminds me of Maine.



Bet you just can't wait to get out your snow shovels like us. lol

[This message has been edited by weloveour86se (edited 10-01-2011).]

It's out cradle and all! Didn't have to use very much penatrating lubricants at all. Even the dreaded cradle bolts came right off with a ratchet and socket. We have the motor on a pallet and need to get some bolts to mount the motor to the stand!

Sorry no pics I'm on my brother in laws computer as someone spilled coffee on our laptop, ( not gonna say who for the sake of my relationship) Laptop still works just not the keyboard...Grrrrr!

We need to figure out how were gonna get the torque converter off if we cant turn the motor. Maybe a thin wrench will work?

Thanks and have a great day!!!

quote Originally posted by weloveour86se: We have the motor on a pallet,,,,,

I'm on my way with the HiLo.

Congrats on getting the engine out.

If the motor wasn't siezed, you can crank it over with a big socket on the ballancer to get at the flywheel bolts and use your afformentioned thin wrench through the transmission inspection plate. There is a tool that grips the flywheel cogs through the inspection plate that will turn is over from that side. Maybe someone else can chime in here for you, I can't remember the exact name of it or perhaps you can find one at the auto parts store, most auto parts store have tool loaner programs.

Wait...I am confused now...I thought you had a manual tranny? If it's manual, then it is easy...all bolts are on the outside. If it is an auto, then yes...thin wrench. If that doesn't work....ummm....cut-off wheel?

quote Originally posted by CowsPatoot: I see one issue with pulling it out the top. I don't think you will have room to slide the engine far enough to the driver's side with the torque converter still attached to the engine....and if you can't spin the engine, I am not sure how you are going to get to the three bolts that attach the torque converter to the flexplate. Normally, you would spin the engine until they are in view on either side of the oil pan, and pull them out from there. Here is a photo with the torque converter attached to the engine that shows how much room you would need....

We always unbolt the flexplate from the torque converter before separating the engine from the trans so if you did this the engine would easily come out the top. We still do not like doing the top removal as the cradle drop just seems more convenient for us. The only sticking point with this technique is sometimes a front cradle bolt that just won't come out.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, ZZP Intercooler, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: We always unbolt the flexplate from the torque converter before separating the engine from the trans so if you did this the engine would easily come out the top. We still do not like doing the top removal as the cradle drop just seems more convenient for us. The only sticking point with this technique is sometimes a front cradle bolt that just won't come out.

Hey TYvm for the reply just remember the motor wont turn at this point, it's seized and one head bolt is busted off in the head..

Anyone have any ideas of the weight of the rear minus the cradle and motor? We need to make sure we dont exceed the lifting capacities of our lifting straps or chains.

Pics to come later tonight, theres some suspect looking surface rust on the outside of the motor block just below where the busted head bolt used to reside.

Thannks very much and have a great Columbus day, And dont forget to take your Columbus day decorations down after the holiday!