Before I get started I want to thank people who have been particularly helpful during this entire process. Loyde, Ryan (darthfiero), Purple Reign, PCTech, and WCF. There are many others on this forum who have helped me along the way and I thank you all as well - this forum is the best. I wouldn't have been able to get as far as I have without their help.

Back in 2004 I bought an 88GT with intentions of performing an engine swap. I was unsure what engine I wanted to go with and which one would be the most fun to drive. After a lot of time spent reading about the various swaps on this thread I narrowed it down to either an Archie kit or a 3800SC. I found a 3800SC from a 2002 Grand Prix GTP on craigslist for $1200 which another fiero owner was going to put into his 86GT but due to relocation of his job decided to abandon the project so his loss was my gain. The engine came with all the accessories and appeared to have very low mileage (I was told less than 1200 miles at the time). I purchased it and brought it home to begin the swap.








I decided to keep my getrag for this swap, so with 165k on my current tranny I decided to buy a rebuilt getrag. They are indeed getting harder to find as the only place I found that rebuilt the getrag was a place in Florida called Man-Trans. The rebuilt transmission cost $700 with a $250-$300 core charge. I happened to have an extra getrag I purchased from a member here on the forum, so I simply sent that unit back for the core charge when the new rebuilt one arrived.








Next, I had to buy a 3.8L Camaro flywheel from a 1994 engine - got it from Advance Auto Parts for $45 + $40 core. Then I had it turned down to .840" from the crank surface to the clutch surface and got it balance matched to the flexplate off of the new 2002 3800SC. It took me several weeks to find someone who would spend the time to do this for me (I had to drive about 1.5 hours to a machine shop for this step) and the labor cost me $300.



I also bought ZZP fuel rails because by this time I decided to go for a red theme for the engine components. Around the same time I also purchased the TOG Extreme headers that had the super silver ceramic coating on them. I knew this would require modifying the clutch arm because of the research I did on Loyde's website when he used the same setup. More on this much later...





I then painted my supercharger using Duplicolor Metalcast paint which looks really good, but I worry about it's durability. I painted it with about 6 coats of the Metalcast, then 3-4 more coats of clear coat engine paint.


http://www.grsychckn.com/Fiero/Supercharger/

Next I started prepping the car for the engine drop. I found this link (https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/074977.html) very helpful for me in making sure that I got everything ready. One useful thought though, when I was draining the coolant, I used a turkey basting foil tin to catch a majority of the coolant when I disconnected it from the rear passenger/driver side coolant tubes. I then used my shop vac to suck the remainder of the coolant out of the radiator and engine by pushing the nozzle into the coolant hose and letting the vac do the work.

I also bought some 3/8" eye bolts from Lowes and after removing the rear suspension, I connected the eye bolts through the strut towers where the struts stick up through the strut mount towers. I then connected my engine hoist to each side in order to support the car as I lifted the car off the cradle.







Finally got the old engine out and took the obligatory standing in the engine bay shot.



I finally got my pressure plate bolts since the McLeod pressure plate I ordered from WCF didn't come with them and I bolted the flywheel and clutch/pressure plate to the new engine.




I then put the starter on (shimmed the starter with a couple of washers because the 2.8 starter didn't look to line up just right). I'm going to have to connect my battery charger directly to the starter in order to test and see if it's lined up right (any other good ideas for this?). I also mounted the engine to the tranny on my cradle. I have Rodney Dickman's transmission and front engine mounts and they are quality. I do wish he used 10.9 grade bolts but I figure he knows better than I. I do want to know the torque specs for all the mounts as well as the trans-engine bolts because I can't seem to find that info.





Here are some pictures of the old and new engines sitting next to each other.






So once I took the engine out I decided to clean up and remove the battery tray since I got the WCF front battery tray (carbon fiber). I ordered a spot weld cut-out tool (drill bit) in 3/8" size which allowed me to get the battery tray entirely out in the matter of an hour or so - I'd highly recommend it. So underneath I found rust and decided to cut out the rust then form a piece of mild steel to weld into place. Since I have no experience with metalwork, I have since decided to get some patch metal mesh and then putting some body filler on top. I will get to that this weekend and hopefully have some more pictures.




So at this point I need to know the torque specs for the front engine mount, trans mounts, and engine-trans bolts. I also need to know if anyone else has had problems with the right coolant tube getting in the way of the WCF battery box - and what to do about it.

Thanks,

Brian

By the way, I got the cradle powder coated as well as all my new suspension parts (knuckles, links, swaybar). I'm going with an OBDI because I got a good deal on it here in the mall - it came with the wiring harness. I also have a ZZP short stack intercooler that I'm going to install with this swap and I'm using a 3.2" modular pulley. Here are some picts of these that I have.












I also purchased some aluminum valve covers from animul. I got them anodized red and the lettering is filled in with chrome enamel. The raw picture he sent me is here and when I get a chance I'll post pictures of the final covers I got.



Brian

Very Nice work Brian, I have never seen anything so nicely & neatly layed out like that in my life..Thanks for taking time to post it....

very nice looking swap!! i finished mine up a few months ago. be sure to use locktite on the flywheel and clutch bolts. im glad someone else is using the getrag too! be ready for it to scream. these cars are a blast with this motor.

I just wanted to add pictures of my new valve covers and some of the rust products I'm going to use to patch that battery tray hole.






After I patch that hole, I'm going to use Herculiner to seal the entire engine bay.

Brian

i'm also installing a 3800sc into my 86 gt, that motor looks clean and those valve covers are the best looking ones I think ive ever seen on a 3800, it all looks very nice

Thanks for all your compliments - I've certainly spent a lot of time and money trying to get everything right. I just hope that I can help some people out here as much as I've been helped.

Brian

Looks good so far and sure in the end will look even better once its on the road. A few things about the swap though that I saw that I thought you would wanna know. The fuel rails you have are not ZZP, they are PRJ rails but they are just as good as the ZZP if not better. The way you have the fuel line running under the TB is going to put it right above the cross-over pipe, which in turn is going to put alot of heat on the fuel line. The cross-over is coated but I can tell you that there is still an amazing amount of heat that will still be put off from it. I would suggest either wrapping the cross-over or wrapping the fuel line, it will not be as pretty but will keep all the extra heat off that fuel line. If you wanna little extra HP since you are still in the building phase to say on the install, there are a set of 1.9 RR rockers for sale on CGP now for pretty cheap. They will benifit well from the TOGS and give you more room to play with as far as fighting any KR you might run into. Your install is very clean though and look forward to seeing it finished and on the road.

Holy crap!


That has to be about the most cleanest swap I have seen yet, Keep up the good work and pics.

Nice to see you getting your dream up and running
It is looking very clean and that impreses me! some don't "clean it up" but that is their problem.

Did you paint the aminul VC??? or is that a power coat?

Also how about a web site on the tranny place...

Looks very good! Let me know if I can help!

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88 GT, 3800SC, Getrag 5sp. 12" Vette Rotors,Custom stuff done

revin, I bookmarked that site http://www.mantrans.com/ you have a nice looking ride there, makes me want to drop everything else I`m doing and pile some more dough into the exterior/mods on mine...

quote Originally posted by MstangsBware: Looks good so far and sure in the end will look even better once its on the road. A few things about the swap though that I saw that I thought you would wanna know. The fuel rails you have are not ZZP, they are PRJ rails but they are just as good as the ZZP if not better. The way you have the fuel line running under the TB is going to put it right above the cross-over pipe, which in turn is going to put alot of heat on the fuel line. The cross-over is coated but I can tell you that there is still an amazing amount of heat that will still be put off from it. I would suggest either wrapping the cross-over or wrapping the fuel line, it will not be as pretty but will keep all the extra heat off that fuel line. If you wanna little extra HP since you are still in the building phase to say on the install, there are a set of 1.9 RR rockers for sale on CGP now for pretty cheap. They will benifit well from the TOGS and give you more room to play with as far as fighting any KR you might run into. Your install is very clean though and look forward to seeing it finished and on the road.

PM sent. You're right about PRJ - I don't know where I got ZZP. It must be because I wrote all this up late at night and I was under the influence of a lot of drugs due to a kidney stone. I don't think I'm going to be keeping that fuel line because when I made it I realized that I may have made a mistake and so I bought more fuel line - but won't route them until I get the headers and crossover pipe installed. I will look into those rockers you mentioned as I'm sure KR could be a problem.

modded 3800's with obd1 make me cry, as I see so much wasted potential for absolutly no reason. I understand the deal you got on it, but it would be a noticiable upgrade to do obd2 and properly tune it. The intercooler is next to useless without added timing, even more so on a stock cammed motor, and even more so with headers. Quite a shame you spent all the money on the HP adders to just bring it up to where it should be stock with obd2.

Actually If one has a stickshift fiero, Then there is nothing wrong with OBD 1, There's cheaper HP tunner programs for the system, There's also High HP aplications running OBD 1 with very respectable dynos, Using OBD 2 has only a few advantages And there pretty small.
I used obd 2 because I had to, If my fiero was a stickshift then I would be using obd 1 as well.


Bottom line, Using OBD 1 is fine and won't cost you HP (if programed good), Even a bad tunned OBD 2 system will lack in HP if tuned wrong. OBD 1 has fewer wiring to work with making it a clean install.

Runnning OBD1 with 4 speed. Cant imagine running any better. Chip was done by Ryan Gick ( Darthfiero)

quote Originally posted by 86fieroEarl: Actually If one has a stickshift fiero, Then there is nothing wrong with OBD 1, There's cheaper HP tunner programs for the system, There's also High HP aplications running OBD 1 with very respectable dynos, Using OBD 2 has only a few advantages And there pretty small. I used obd 2 because I had to, If my fiero was a stickshift then I would be using obd 1 as well. Bottom line, Using OBD 1 is fine and won't cost you HP (if programed good), Even a bad tunned OBD 2 system will lack in HP if tuned wrong. OBD 1 has fewer wiring to work with making it a clean install.

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" DRIVE IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT"

quote Originally posted by ohio86se: Runnning OBD1 with 4 speed. Cant imagine running any better. Chip was done by Ryan Gick ( Darthfiero)

Yeah, Ryan would be the guy to program your OBD 1, He does great work. I forgot to add you can use OBD 1 on a 4t60 E or a 4t60 HD As well, I was going to go with that setup, But I found a 4t65 HD for a good price and had to use OBD 2.

I finally got some time to try and patch that battery area. Unforunately, I accidentally deleted the pictures when I was resizing them so I guess the before/after will have to do. I cut out a section of the rusted metal and in it's place I put two pieces of the mesh body patch material. I then covered it all with the metal-to-metal filler. Now I just have to come back and sand it down a lot. I highly recommend the metal-to-metal compound as it was easy to work with and hardens fairly quickly. I don't know if I'd recommend the Bondo metal mesh because it didn't seem to stick and hold to anything, but it worked.




Also, I already had DarthFiero program my PCM once, but I'm going to have to get him to do it again because I've changed some of my mods.

Brian

Tuning on paper is great, but I know from firsthand tuning of highly modified 3800's that it is much more than just plugging in the injector/maf tables.

On average, we take about an hour of data, and plug that into a speed density tuning program, and repeat about 2-3 times. This only works asuming you have the fuel tables, and timing set properly for you aplication.

Spending the time and money on obd2 and tuning, (or obd1 scanning / realtime tuning) is the only reliable way to get real reliable HP and safety out of a 3800. I know for a fact that tuning a 3800 with obd1 has alot less of a following and knowlage base than the obd2 world has, but more power to you if you can actively tune and maintain the motor with obd1 (I know it can be done, just I dont know how it can be done).

Also, most of my friends have at least 2 or 3 bin files that they switch out depending on conditions (humidity, altitude, somtimes temperature).

Basicly I am saying that it is hard enough to tune with a large knowlage base, and following, that obd2 has, and your only asking for it when dealing with obd1. I know for a fact that Lowkey has had nothing but problems with his car, due to false knock, real knock, fueling, and over 5 ecu chips from ryan.

Ok, sorry for the lack of updates but this last week I had my first kidney stone - those freaking things hurt...

I thought I'd update with a little bit more of my progress as I haven't really had much time to work on the car this week. Below are the pictures of my coilovers completed. Then the pictures of the carbon fiber front-mount batter tray. I'm having a bit of a problem getting the tray to fit even though I followed WCF's instructions to the "t" when installing. The problem is that my right side coolant tube is just barely in the way. The band clamp is also in the way so when I get a chance I'm going to rotate that guy around so that the screw head is no longer facing the tray. I may have to bend the coolant pipe a bit - Anyone else had this problem?



I think you can see the problem quite clear with the battery box.




After rotating the clamp I guess I'm going to have to bend the coolant pipe a little to make this work.

Well, I haven't gotten the battery tray fixed - but I did pass the kidney stone (yes!). Instead I started working on getting the engine bay prepped for paint. I decided to go with bedliner as I saw Golden86 use in his build thread. Next I will be welding up the slave cylinder bracket so that I can use the TOG headers. I'm hoping to get that all done by Thanksgiving so that I can start putting things back together. Here you go:

Before bedliner




And with bedliner





I am using Herculiner (1 Gallon) and I still have to apply the UV protectant top coat but it looks pretty good.

that is a very clean setup you have going on. i really want to do this to my fiero, since i have a modded gtp.

one thing that i noticed is that you went with the extreme togs. that wasnt the wisest decision. see tose headers are made for cars with big cams and lots of headwork. the primarys are bigger then normal(i cant think of the size off the top of my head), and it is really going to harm the power that the engine is capable of. also, i would recommed returning you ssic in place of a full size IC. belive me, i went ssic forst, and ended up with a full size. for a few more hundred dollars, you will get temperature decrases double the ssic.

i do agree that you will need to do valve train work. i would recommed zzp's 1.9 reworked stock rockers due to the fact that A. you will not NEED to change valve spring(though it is recommened if you want to shift higher then 6100, in which case i would recommed the comp 105s) B. they are the only rocker that has not failed sending metal shards through the engine.

all in all it is an awesome build, you really spared no caost, and it shows.

hats off to you

quote Originally posted by scooz14: and also i agree with eh obd1 not being the way to go. i have a DHP Powertuner for my GTP, and it is hard enought to tune even with all the support from the dhp website. i can emagine having to do it in the dark all on your own. if it wasnt forr all the worksheets i have accumulated from my friend and the dhp site, i would be up the stream with out a paddle if you get what i mean

Thanks for the compliments. I already have purchased some 1.9 rockers from clubGP and am awaiting their arrival. my big concern for not going the route of the full size IC was that I didn't want to have to cut the decklid. Besides, I should be able to upgrade to the full size IC if I want to since I got the FloJet pump as well as the largest IC radiator. I will just make sure that I run good sized copper lines from the front to the back in case I decide to change my core out. I've still got a lot of work to do before I'm even remotely close to installing any of the IC hardware. As far as OBDI vs. OBDII, the last I will comment on it is that I already have what I need to complete the swap, and I've already sold my old wiring harness so I'm going to stick with what I've got. I'm not going to argue right or wrong, because OBDII may be the right way to go. But I can always switch out the OBDI for OBDII when it becomes apparent that I'll prefer it (which I'm not ruling out).

Brian

I am going to go into some very indepth research on the obd1 vs obd2 concept as there are some dyno results on obd1 that make insane amounts of horsepower.

I still am sure that you do not want to do any advanced engine mods on obd1 as the tuning required will not be convienent when mailing proms back and forth is near impossible. The problem is the IC is an advanced engine mod, and I doubt you will be unable to take full advantage of it with obd1, as a fine line of advanced timing and fueling is the only way to truely see an intercooler work to its full potential. This requires more than just mailing away your computer to somone, or mailing away your prom chip. I think the rockers will be well recepted without any advanced tuning changes.

I like the engine bay paint! I just rattle canned mine.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I am going to go into some very indepth research on the obd1 vs obd2 concept as there are some dyno results on obd1 that make insane amounts of horsepower. I still am sure that you do not want to do any advanced engine mods on obd1 as the tuning required will not be convienent when mailing proms back and forth is near impossible. The problem is the IC is an advanced engine mod, and I doubt you will be unable to take full advantage of it with obd1, as a fine line of advanced timing and fueling is the only way to truely see an intercooler work to its full potential. This requires more than just mailing away your computer to somone, or mailing away your prom chip. I think the rockers will be well recepted without any advanced tuning changes. I like the engine bay paint! I just rattle canned mine.

Thanks man. Although I'm pretty sure you're going to post your results of the research - please let me know what you find out.

Brian

Well, after the kidney stone, the doctors found out I had mono. But, I've managed to still get some things done. Over the last two weeks or so I managed to put the final coat of paint on the engine bay and I also made the slave cylinder bracket so that I can rotate it 90 degrees and still have clearance for the TOG headers. I also got my 1.9 rockers installed. Pics below.

[This message has been edited by grsychckn (edited 12-12-2006).]

Damn its looking good. Now i got one question thought. How in the hell are you bleed that slave because the bleeder is at the bottom and all the air is gonna rise to the top.

If you've got Mono you need to lay the hell down! Rest rest rest man or that stuff will tear you up for the rest of your life. My wife didn't listen when they told her she needed to rest and she now has chronic fatigue syndrome (at least I think that's what it's called...) She can't get a lot done without falling down exhausted due to the virus still ravaging her system. The engine swap will wait and you'll be in better shape to work on it!

I gotta say It's looking good but don't tax your system working on it. Listen to what the docs say!

Red 5spd Formula
Trot, the supportive, fox...

quote Originally posted by daniel87fierogt: Damn its looking good. Now i got one question thought. How in the hell are you bleed that slave because the bleeder is at the bottom and all the air is gonna rise to the top.

Not quite sure just yet how I'll do this, but I'm sure it will involve me leaving the slave cylinder off the bracket while I bleed (holding it with a clamp?), then mounting it back without letting air get in. An interesting feat I'll have to accomplish (perhaps with Loyde's help since he does a very similar setup).

As far as the mono - it's kicking my butt right now, but I'm taking off almost a week from work so I can sleep and get to feeling better. When I do have moments of energy I'm going to order some much needed parts (like coolant hoses). I saw on an earlier post where the coolant hoses used were XL62144 and XL60715 (for an 87/88), but I don't know what hose to get for my heater core in line. If someone has this info I'd be grateful. Also, what size expansion plugs for the lower intake and the water pump (one is smaller than the other but I will assume I can use 1" plugs). Is there a preferred material for the plugs (copper, steel, etc)?

Thanks!

Well, I figured it's been too long since my last post, so I thought I'd update this thread with what I've been doing while still trying to recover from mono. First, I got tripleedgeperformance.com to port the inlet and outlet of the supercharger. I took it apart and shipped him the housing and within 2 weeks I had it back - excellent work.

Do any new lately.

good luck tuning the maf, its a pretty involved process (dont be fooled by the mail order program idea).

I love the case port, really is a great job on that.

bump

quote Originally posted by koolgtz: Do any new lately.

Nothing new - I've been having all sorts of health problems that the doctors can't seem to figure out. I did manage to order some new paint for the supercharger and I ordered a 12" brake upgrade and 4 corvette rotors with a 5x100 bolt pattern drilled in. Those should be coming soon. This weekend I'm planning on dropping the tank and getting the last stubborn brake line off so I can start putting the new ones on. I will update with pictures over the weekend.

Brian

Well, finally got some stuff done. I made a paint booth out of drop cloths (plastic) and a lot of duct tape for my basement. I also used two 20x20 air filters - one for air to enter, the other for a box fan to sit in front of and suck the air out of the booth. It worked really well, but the fumes got pretty heavy (if anyone tries this make sure you wear a good carbon mask). Regardless, I finally got the supercharger painted like I want it. I found some paint from ALSA Corp. online that they sell and you can get by the aerosol can - Killer Cans they call them. I wanted an anodized red aluminum look, so I called and they suggested to use their black base coat, followed by the ghost chrome, then a candy red, and lastly their two-part clear coat. I put the black and ghost chrome down, but when I started on the red, it looked very pink after 1 coat. I decided to put a second coat down and it went from pink to purple - my guess is that I didn't make the chrome layer thick enough. I went back and laid the black then chrome back down and decided to use some left over Duplicolor Metalcast red I had left over from painting the supercharger before. On top of the chrome I laid the basecoat for the metalcast down (2 coats), then the red (2 more coats). It looked great, so I decided to clear coat it. The first coat I made light and rough, then with the final two coats I put on heavier coats. It turned out fantastic. It's really hard to tell just how red it is because of all the metal flakes in the paint - the best pictures will have to be taken outside on a clear day, but I took what I could in my kitchen. The two silver pictures are of the black base coat and the ALSA Ghost Chrome on top - I just thought it was cool.







I also tore up the front suspension as I'm: (1)replacing it all with poly bushings; (2)getting the control arms, crossmember, and swaybar powder coated; (3)Putting all new ball joints and end links in - Rodney's 1" lowering ball joints. I should be ready to put that back together within the two weeks.

On a side note, I was wondering if anyone has ever replaced the sheet metal screws that hold the brake lines, clutch line, etc. in. I'm having a hard time finding zinc plated or stainless replacements for those.

[This message has been edited by grsychckn (edited 03-07-2007).]

most, if not all hardware is cadmium/zinc coated. take a grinder to it and youll see what i mean. you can by a zinc spray paint, but it comes out a very dull gray or go to caswellplating.com and for a few hundred get a cadmium kit to replate what you have. on my car, i bead blast every part that comes off and use paint or new hardware.


1 other question, on your valve covers, are you going to have your oil fill on the back side? if not, you wont even see the engraving

The sheet metal screws I'm referring to aren't plated at all. They are just those black carbon hex-head screws that are used on everything external to the car. I'll get some pictures tomorrow of what I mean.

I will have the oil fill on the back side of the engine - that's the way I wanted it. I will have a valve cover breather on the back side that I'll be able to pull out to refill with oil. It may be a bit more of a challenge to change the oil, but with a good funnel it shouldn't be a problem.