Hello everyone, I am new to this site. I am in the process of aquiring 2 Fiero's, One is an 85 4 cyl SE, Not sure what the other is yet but the body style looks newer. I also have a suberu impreza. I want to rebuild and use the Boxer engine for the Fiero. Before I start just wondering if it is at all possible, or does anyone have any other suggestions for an engine swap.

Not sure if the boxer will fit. It would probably take more time and money than it is worth. By the time you get the trans figured out - either adapted to the Fiero trans or Subaru trans adapted to the Fiero cradle/suspension and the electronics sorted out, your money and time would be better spent on the 3800SC or a SBC/LSx, etc. It all depends on how much time and money you want to spend on it. Cheapest and easiest is probably the 3.4 pushrod or just get another fresh Duke. Of course there is the Quad 4/Ecotec swap, 4.9 or N* Caddy swaps, etc. etc. The hard part is deciding on which way to go. Use the search function or go into the :Construction Zone" for any and all things related to swaps.

Welcome to the forum and good luck!

Pat

i have wondered about this myself .is that a six cylinder ? i know they make a 4 cylinder boxer motor .whether it will fit or not takes some careful measuring .as the owner of a 2.2 turbo ecotec swapped 86 gt , i can relate to doing something other than the 3800sc .the 3800 is a great motor but it has almost become the universal fiero swap .nothing new there .the only v8 swap that i find interesting are the LS series motors .an all aluminum motor that weighs about the same as a cast iron v6 with gobs of torque and horsepower .whats not to like .but for me , i wanted a lightweight 4 banger .the difference in handling over the 2.8 v6 is really amazing .no snap throttle oversteer and very neutral handling .

I can say that there is about a 0% chance of a boxer motor working with a Transverse transaxle. The axle would go right through the cylinder. So you will definatly need to go with some sort of longitudinal swap. There is another big issue, all the transmissions for that engine, although they are all Longitudinal, they are only available as All Wheel Drive. So the internals would have to be modified to only run as if it were FWD only.

This seems like a bit too difficult to warrant the effort. It is a good breed of engines though.

You will find that with all the engines that just fit so nicely, you shouldn't have a problem finding something that does what you want, and fits easily.

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: There is another big issue, all the transmissions for that engine, although they are all Longitudinal, they are only available as All Wheel Drive. So the internals would have to be modified to only run as if it were FWD only.

Unless, of course, you made a 4-wheel drive Fiero. Great for that Jalapeño project.

boxster motors are know to have major problems
they are watercooled flat 6
the only flat 4 porsche motors are 60's era and worth big bucks now
porsche has spent big bucks on warranty replacements for the boxsters
if not under warranty the motors cost 12,000
if you have a boxster motor SELL IT
and buy a swaped fiero of your choice
and no this is NOT a practical swap

btw subaru motors
are being swaped in to porsche and VW aircooled cars
there are kits to aid this swap
and not all subaru trans are 4wd

------------------
Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

quote Originally posted by ray b: if you have a boxster motor SELL IT

I think he said "boxer" (i.e. flat, horizontally-opposed, with individual crankpins for each cylinder), not "Boxster." A survey of successful boxer motors includes the VW flat 4, Corvair flat 6, BMW and Zundapp (motorcycle) flat twins, Porsche 4 and 6 cylinder engines, Citroen 2CV, Subaru flat 4s and 6es, and virtually all of the piston aircraft engines in use today. The flat 12 in the Porsche 917 and the Ferrari flat 12s (e.g. Testarossa) are not true boxer motors, since the connecting rods from each opposing pair of pistons share a common crankpin and thus move in the same direction; these are technically "180 degree V" engines.

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: I can say that there is about a 0% chance of a boxer motor working with a Transverse transaxle. The axle would go right through the cylinder. So you will definatly need to go with some sort of longitudinal swap.

I agree.


Edit: The Porsche 917 engine was a flat 12, not a flat 8.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 10-01-2010).]

thru trunk removal, I can see this being possible - BUT - it also seems that the motor would need to be mounted fairly high up, and that would eliminate the whole reason for using a boxer enegine - getting the weight down low.

I am no mechanic but if it can fit size wise a cradle can be made and the transmission should go with the motor. It would just be a matter of adapting the drive axels and gear shifting linkage arrangements. Am I off guys?

------------------
84 Duke, Holley TBI, Manual Trans 4.10, CompuCam, White

Anything can be done with enough time and money. I have seen a turbo WRX motor swapped into a Porsche 914 (a car almost identical to the Fiero.) But that car came from factory with a boxer 4 so it was designed to hold it.

Heck, longshot but maybe the Isuzu cradle can just hook up.....O.K. even I am laughing but wellllll.........?

------------------
84 Duke, Holley TBI, Manual Trans 4.10, CompuCam, White

A subie motor + tranny (longitudionally mounted) would be cool. Is anyone out there that took measurements?

quote Originally posted by ray b: btw subaru motors are being swaped in to porsche and VW aircooled cars there are kits to aid this swap and not all subaru trans are 4wd

In that case, you may be able to mate a Subaru engine to a 2WD Porsche tranny with the right adapter, and stuff it in a Fiero. Of course, it will take a lot of custom-fab work. But if you can handle that, I say go for it.

I love those engines, the noise and performance of the WRX engines really are the business!

[This message has been edited by PhilipFiero (edited 09-30-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: I agree.

917 is a flat 12

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: In that case, you may be able to mate a Subaru engine to a 2WD Porsche tranny with the right adapter, and stuff it in a Fiero. Of course, it will take a lot of custom-fab work. But if you can handle that, I say go for it.

I'm also thinking that it could be simpler to use a factory Subaru AWD transmission, modified for FWD only. I am just thinking out loud though...

Basically, a custom centre differential/coupler replacement part would have to be made.

Even if FWD only transmissions are available, it probably would be advantageous to use the AWD WRX STi transmission instead, since that's the beefed up version meant to take abuse.

quote Originally posted by wftb: the difference in handling over the 2.8 v6 is really amazing .no snap throttle oversteer and very neutral handling .

You can also address the handling of a rear heavy car by going with wider rear tires. The Ecotec swap isn't the only route.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 09-30-2010).]

The Honda Goldwing and Honda Valkyrie have boxer engines.

The GL1800 engine is rated at 117 hp, while the Duke is rated at 98

quote Originally posted by bubbajoexxx: 917 is a flat 12

Of course, you are correct. The 917 engine was actually two flat 6es joined end to end, but that's nit picking.


Edit: I stand corrected. The 917 engine was a 180 degree V-12 design, not a boxer motor or two flat sixes in series. Later in the 917's development a flat 16 was tested, but I don't think it was ever actually used in a race.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 11-12-2012).]

A Porsche flat 6 turbo with a flipped g50 is the best way to go
Low center of gravity, high power and a bullet proof trans
But, it's going to be expensive

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 10-01-2010).]

would it really matter if you used the AWD tranny and just left the rear driveshaft stub sticking out and not connected ? they are foreward biassed anyway ,cant see it mattering .the porsche 917 was classed as a flat 12 but it was really two 6's .but they were not stacked .one was in front of the transaxle and the other was behind the transaxle for better balance if i remember right .

Time and money. Time and money. I would love to see it happen, but time and money. Excellent proposal though.

quote Originally posted by wftb: would it really matter if you used the AWD tranny and just left the rear driveshaft stub sticking out and not connected ? they are foreward biassed anyway ,cant see it mattering .the porsche 917 was classed as a flat 12 but it was really two 6's .but they were not stacked .one was in front of the transaxle and the other was behind the transaxle for better balance if i remember right .

That was the story I had heard too, but on researching it it looks to me that the two six cylinder engines were placed end to end in front of the transaxle. I looked at pictures of a 917 engine rebuild and a picture from the rear which looks to me as though the transaxle is in the back.

quote Originally posted by wftb: would it really matter if you used the AWD tranny and just left the rear driveshaft stub sticking out and not connected ? they are foreward biassed anyway ,cant see it mattering .the porsche 917 was classed as a flat 12 but it was really two 6's .but they were not stacked .one was in front of the transaxle and the other was behind the transaxle for better balance if i remember right .

It's not a fully locking differential. It wouldn't work properly.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 10-01-2010).]

Some older Subies came with FWD trannies, so you might get something to fit.

The EJ255 in my 2010 Legacy GT leaves my LS4 powered GP in the dust. Mind you, that's with 18 lbs of boost.

There is a conversion kit available:

http://www.bremarauto.com/p...-2wd-conversion-kit/

quote Originally posted by wftb: would it really matter if you used the AWD tranny and just left the rear driveshaft stub sticking out and not connected ? they are foreward biassed anyway ,cant see it mattering .the porsche 917 was classed as a flat 12 but it was really two 6's .but they were not stacked .one was in front of the transaxle and the other was behind the transaxle for better balance if i remember right .

the engine was strickly a flat 12 and not 2 sixes bolted together It used a one piece crank and block and cams central driven 1100 hp in the 917 10 and 790 hp in the 917

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34zqqor3LYg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkA0LP9vAbk

[This message has been edited by bubbajoexxx (edited 10-03-2010).]

That is exactly right. I was speaking figuratively when I said two six cylinder engines. I apologize for missleading anyone. I should have been more careful.

porsche raced flat 4's
then they built a flat 8 for 1.5L F-1


the F-1 motor grew over the years in sports racers
like the 904-8 906-8 908
from 2.0 to 3.0 L

the final flat 8 at 3.0 had two more identical cylinders added on each side of the center cam drives
to make the 4.5 917 motor as the 8 and 12 versions used the same bits
NO 6 cyl bits were used as they were SOHC not the F-1 based DOHC designs

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: There is a conversion kit available: http://www.bremarauto.com/p...-2wd-conversion-kit/

quote Bremar Automotion has developed the necessary components required to convert a 5 speed manual AWD Subaru gearbox to a 2WD transaxle suitable for use in mid mount engine applications. If you’re looking to do this conversion, then you’ve come to the right place… A splined locking spool replaces the centre diff and sends all drive torque to the gearbox’s front diff. A machined billet aluminium blanking plate replaces the rear section of the gearbox and really looks the part for exposed boxes. All kits come with a full set of installation instructions.

I would love for someone to attempt a Subie Boxer motor swap. There is enough aftermarket support behind those engines to make the swap easy(ish). The VW community has done the swap for years and it's well documented. I'm doing just a quick topical search to show the depth of information out there.
The only hard part would be fabricating motor mounts and an exhaust for it.





pictures courtesy of these guys: http://www.vanaru.com/prod1.htm

Motor swap kits:


http://www.prostreetonline....ku/pso-ac.mm.012.asp
http://www.prostreetonline....ku/pso-ac.mm.014.asp

914 swap: http://www.etischer.com/914xt.html
http://www.etischer.com/914xt6.html



http://www.renegadehybrids.com/

This guy may be a good resource: http://home.earthlink.net/~...sandtreats/id19.html

Subaru Impreza (incl. WRX) manuals: http://ken-gilbert.com/impreza-manuals

Obviously there is much more to this swap, and the wiring (like with any non-standard swap) will involve its own headaches.
As long as you retain as many Subie components as possible and just splice the needed Fiero stuff in it will be a whole lot easier to do. See Rickady88GT for inspiration. (Retaining as much as possible from the donor, incl.: gauges, fuel pump, shifter, etc. makes it easier, than trying to teach a modern Japanese car ancient American electronics)

My quick search above did not reveal any Subie engine dimensions, but that would be quite useful to know. (Anybody got a Subie and a measuring tape? B) ) The subie motor is very wide, but fairly short, so there might be enough clearance up to the firewall.



www.subarupoweredprojects.co.uk


http://www.rjes.com/html/ba...ne_mount_crossm.html


http://www.rjes.com/html/harness_building.html

http://www.manxgallery.org/gallery/album437

Shifter:


http://www.thesamba.com/vw/...php?t=400479&start=0

[This message has been edited by Austrian Import (edited 02-02-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Austrian Import: The only hard part would be fabricating motor mounts and an exhaust for it.

Fabbing motor mounts & exhaust is the easy part.

quote Originally posted by Austrian Import: The subie motor is very wide, but fairly short, so there might be enough clearance up to the firewall.

I kinda doubt that... however it may fit if you lean the firewall in at the bottom to match the seat back angle. You'd then have to relocate the fuel tank.
I can tell it took a LOT less work to put the Subie engine in the Escort than I'm spending on my VW Cabriolet project (with the Fiero running gear & SBC). http://angelonearth.net/VW.html
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

EDIT: I always thought it would be really cool to put Subie 4WD drivetrain in an X19...

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 02-02-2011).]

You're right. I oversimplifed. At the same time I'm hoping for more variety in swaps. The 3800 is a good and reliable swap, but I look forward to the more crazy and adventurous swaps.

The subbie powertrain will fit in a Fiero, just barely. The firewall will have to be massaged a bit for belt and timing cover clearance. The axles will be very close to the factory Fiero axle center line, should be a moot point. The transmission tail cap will sit about 2 inches behind the tail lights, as measured on my notchie, should tuck nicely inside the rear bumper cover, you will have to ditch the bumper structure unfortunately, as well as the trunk. Not too sure of the needed cradle modifications, and some will be needed, as I only had a few minutes to pull some quick measurements off of a 2002 WRX before I had to return it

quote Originally posted by topher_time: The subbie powertrain will fit in a Fiero, just barely. The firewall will have to be massaged a bit for belt and timing cover clearance. The axles will be very close to the factory Fiero axle center line, should be a moot point. The transmission tail cap will sit about 2 inches behind the tail lights, as measured on my notchie, should tuck nicely inside the rear bumper cover, you will have to ditch the bumper structure unfortunately, as well as the trunk. Not too sure of the needed cradle modifications, and some will be needed, as I only had a few minutes to pull some quick measurements off of a 2002 WRX before I had to return it

Thank you so much for the measurements. That helps immensely.

I had a feeling that the tranny would stick out into the trunk... That's not to big of a deal though. We could always notch the trunk and fiberglass (or sheet metal) a hump into the middle of it. (kind of like an axle hump in the cabin on an rwd car. - just a bit taller and wider)

Also with the engine sitting lower in the car we could extend the trunk forward with a tray, which might not be as deep, but would make a nice shelf for storage.

quote Originally posted by Austrian Import: in Factory Five sneak peak, light agile car This may explain it better:

I think one of the reasons Factory Five chose this engine for it's upcoming swap is because there is enough aftermarket support behind those engines to make tuning easy(ish).
The other reasons is that the engine is low and wide. And it's very short, so that the wheelbase may be kept stock, or with a very short extension.

[This message has been edited by Austrian Import (edited 02-24-2011).]

So rp2400 posted this in September 2009 and hasn't been back (only post).... Guess he really wanted to know...


------------------
My World of Wheels Winners (Click on links below)

3.4L Supercharged 87 GT and Super Duty 4 Indy #163

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 02-24-2011).]

As you can see, the engine is really short, but very wide, and the transmission is quite long and would require trunk cutting.

Updates: Thanks to the Factory Five 818 build, I found measurements.




Obviously this engine includes the transfer case for the rear wheel drive system. I think the block off plate takes a bit of length out of the transmission.

Would this be enough info to be able to mock up this engine in a Fiero?
Will it work with the stock wheelbase, or will things have to be moved back a bit to clear the firewall?
Will the transmission stick out the back? if so, by how much? (I have no idea how much length to substract for removal of the transfer case)