Hi,

has anybody done the Lebaron brake swap with SSBC aluminium Calipers?

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Jürgen Martin
white GT 87
Germany

I think you would be the first.

At least on this website anyway.

If this is the 11 and 1/4 inch upgrade, i have a brand new set of the adapters i'm not using - if anyone needs them, PM me.

The SSBC aluminium Calipers have several advantages:

less unsprung weight
look much better
no upside down installation of the rear caliper

They have 2 x 38mm pistons front and 1 x 54mm piston rear. This gives a slight rear bias, theoretically
but how is it in practice?

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Jürgen Martin
white GT 87
Germany

quote Originally posted by Brembo-Fiero: They have 2 x 38mm pistons front and 1 x 54mm piston rear. This gives a slight rear bias, theoretically

That should give a front bias. I'm pretty sure that the surface area of two 38mm pistons is greater than the surface area of one 54mm piston.

Front piston area 2 x 1133,54 mm² = 2267,08 mm²
Rear piston area 1 x 2289,06 mm²

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Jürgen Martin
white GT 87
Germany

With this setup you can then correctly add a bias adjuster to the rear, but I wouldn't think it necessary. The factory setup for 88 Fieros used the same size pistons front and rear.

In my research, there were some Volvo calipers that looked like they coul suit the Fiero. Since you are in Europe, they may be an option for you.

dave

Hi Dave,

i measured a 88 front piston, it´s 44mm. Are you sure the reae piston is also 44mm?
I think GM changed the brake mastercylinder piston bore and maybe they changed the
combination valve also?

Do you have further information about the Volvo calipers?

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Jürgen Martin
white GT 87
Germany

i offer real deal FERRARI 460 BREMBO four piston caliper upgrade front and rear with 7075 t651 billet adapt blocks, 4 vette 12" cross drilled rotors drilled to the 5x100, s10 power booster, vette master cylinder, $3200.00. this setup will stop...lol mike in oklahoma

quote Originally posted by mera7: i offer real deal FERRARI 460 BREMBO four piston caliper upgrade front and rear with 7075 t651 billet adapt blocks, 4 vette 12" cross drilled rotors drilled to the 5x100, s10 power booster, vette master cylinder, $3200.00. this setup will stop...lol mike in oklahoma

What year vettes does that master come from??? And what year S10 is the booster from? Would it help on a stock brake system?

The vette is a C3 Not sure but I think a 1991 S10 one is what I used it looks just like the Fiero one but has a Grey reservoir.I did not use his breaks but that is the setup used by most people

[This message has been edited by F355spider (edited 12-14-2009).]

When I was looking, I used www.rockauto.com for data. Once you find a model, you can see data for each supplier's product. If you lookup the 88, you will see the bore is the same front and rear.

I don't have the Volvo details, but they do have some calipers that look like they would be easy to adapt. Then find front-rear that will have similar bores is the challenge. It was my belief that mixing brands would have been fine, as long as the bore size could be matched, or biased to the rear.

If you consider keeping a solid rear rotor, then the Lexus IS300 has a nice upgrade, with little weight gain...of course, the rotors could be used at all 4 corners with Fiero calipers for a diameter increase. Using the exisiting calipers would allow for better leverage and improved braking...

Dave

The reason because i started this thread was, in general i like the LeBaron/Cadillac brake swap, but there are
3 points i don´t like:
1. the upside down position of the rear Calipers + the grinding on brake pad
2. the brake balance, i think it´s even more front biased than the OEM brakes
3. the Cadillac calipers look really ugly

The LeBaron swap with SSBC calipers i think solves point 1 and 3. So the main question is:
Is the brake balance too much rear biased?

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Jürgen Martin
white GT 87
Germany

quote Originally posted by Brembo-Fiero: The reason because i started this thread was, in general i like the LeBaron/Cadillac brake swap, but there are 3 points i don´t like: 1. the upside down position of the rear Calipers + the grinding on brake pad

I'd like to know more about why you say the LeBaron swap has upside down rear calipers.

I've seen that said a few other times on the Forum but I know that if the bleeder is up then they're on right side up.

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: I'd like to know more about why you say the LeBaron swap has upside down rear calipers. I've seen that said a few other times on the Forum but I know that if the bleeder is up then they're on right side up. Archie

Some of us LeBaron swappers install the calipers upside down, with the e-brake cable passing underneath the axle. This requires using a caliper bracket which slightly rotates the caliper downwards. The original caliper-mounted e-brake cable bracket is used, rather than using the boomerang brackets. Bleeder position was compromised. The rotation also causes an interference between the knuckle and the pad, requiring trimming the pad.

Also, depending on your choice of front calipers, you could end up with bleeders on the bottom.

All 4 of my bleeders are on the bottom, and it is a mild pain in the ass.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 12-15-2009).]

I see, Thanks

So the upside down mounting of the caliper is something people do by choice.

So, in fact, it's a choice made & not really a problem with the swap & can be corrected by making a choice to do it differently.

Thanks

Archie

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: Some of us LeBaron swappers install the calipers upside down, with the e-brake cable passing underneath the axle. This requires using a caliper bracket which slightly rotates the caliper downwards. The original caliper-mounted e-brake cable bracket is used, rather than using the boomerang brackets. Bleeder position was compromised. The rotation also causes an interference between the knuckle and the pad, requiring trimming the pad. Also, depending on your choice of front calipers, you could end up with bleeders on the bottom. All 4 of my bleeders are on the bottom, and it is a mild pain in the ass.

The other choice, using the hockey stock brackets bolted onto the struts is reported to cause the parking brake to be applied with suspension movement. So it's not exactly ideal either.

using ssbc calipers will solve 1 and 3. to solve 2, try using same size calipers on all 4 corners. or just slightly larger in front instead of using 2 piston fronts and 1 piston rears, use all 2 pistons but varying size with fronts slightly larger.

quote Originally posted by Brembo-Fiero: The reason because i started this thread was, in general i like the LeBaron/Cadillac brake swap, but there are 3 points i don´t like: 1. the upside down position of the rear Calipers + the grinding on brake pad 2. the brake balance, i think it´s even more front biased than the OEM brakes 3. the Cadillac calipers look really ugly The LeBaron swap with SSBC calipers i think solves point 1 and 3. So the main question is: Is the brake balance too much rear biased?

The balance with SSBC calipers might be too rear-biased, too front-biased - it's hard to know until you try it.

All you need is to get calipers with approximately the correct front:rear area ratio, and then fine-tune with an adjustable valve.

Even the OEM calipers are in the correct "range". With an aftermarket valve, they could be adjusted to have a good bias.

I have seen aftermarket front Cadillac style calipers with 2-1/4", and 2" bores, so bias is not a problem.

We've installed 40 to 50 sets of these brakes in the last 9 ro 10 years without that happening. Whoever reported that had to have done something wrong.

The only way I could see that happening is if the hockey stick mount was too thin & bent.

Anyway, thanks for the information.

Archie

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: The other choice, using the hockey stock brackets bolted onto the struts is reported to cause the parking brake to be applied with suspension movement. So it's not exactly ideal either.

quote Originally posted by Archie: We've installed 40 to 50 sets of these brakes in the last 9 ro 10 years without that happening. Whoever reported that had to have done something wrong.

Archie,

I was one of the ones who reported this. I went around during the 20th anniversary event and looked at all the cars which had this brake upgrade and a surprising number of them were subject to the parking brake being applied upon compression of the rear suspension. I personally showed more than one person at the show how it was happening by bouncing their car up and down while they watched the arm on the caliper rotate with the suspension motion. I even found someone complaining about parking brake cables snapping when he drove over speed bumps. The one thing that none of these people realized was that their parking brake was being applied until I explained it to them which tells me that the drag is not significant enough to notice in normal driving conditions. I don't know if any of those cars were your product or not but it sounds as if they wouldn't have been.

Basically the problem stems around the fact that some aftermarket parking brake cables are shorter than the original ones. When someone uses the shorter aftermarket cables they are long enough to fit with the suspension in it's neutral position and plenty long in the fully extended position (car raised with jack) but there is not enough extra length to account for suspension motion due to distance between the two cable attachment points (Cradle and hockey stick bracket) increasing upon compression.

I believe it is an unintentional design error that is not widely known and has been carried over by those who followed Walt Zettners designs (or copied designs) without proper precaution (using the right length cables). If you are interested I would be willing to come up sometime and go into more detail and show you the changes which have been made to eliminate that failure mode. If you wanted to see what I did specifically it would have to wait until spring as my car has been put away for the winter. Or you can read through the thread Improvement on "standard" 11 1/4 inch brakes but I would enjoy a reason to visit your shop again.

is there a way to make the brackets for the 88 calipers and lebaron rotors? this way you don't have to buy redrilled rotors from a vette and those of us with 87's can still have nice looking calipers without swapping out m/c's and boosters ect. fiero addiction has the brackets for vette rotors but not 11.25 rotors (which are cheaper)? i hate the look of the stock gm calipers and really don't want to spend $1000.00 or more, just for aftermarket aluminum ones. i know the 88 calipers are not cheep but thay can be found and a set of four would be about $500.00 (give or take). and as far as brake proportioning issues there most likely wouldn't be any using fiero brake equipment, even with larger rotors. plus it probably could be done for 88 cars as well! lets face it any way to save money is not a bad thing.
of course i'm not ready for the brake upgrade yet...but i will be!! and leaving stock brakes behind 18" rims just won't look right (looks are probably a dumb reason for an upgrade...but that IS one of the reasons i will be doing it). i am not looking to race but a little extra performance won't hurt either!!!
al

I have to agree with Jefrysuko on aftermarket cables. Even before I did my lebaron upgrade, I've replaced rear cables on a couple of Fiero's and noticed the the outter sheilding was at least 1 inch shorter then the OEM cable. When installed on my first fiero, I bottomed out the adjuster and still had plenty of play in the cable.


My GT has the Lebaron upgrade, front calipers are not Camaro's but S10 Blazer (4x4) same caliper but bleeders are on the top. I'm not using the hockey stick for an ebrake but adapted the stock brackets, re-angled & reinforced them. Using 6000 cable on driver side, and was using a fiero on passenger side (was stretching it) I'll be going to 6000 for passenger side next year, but only issue is it's about 5 inches to short. Brain storming one night, thought of building a small section of cable that uses the same principle the front cable attaches to the rear cable. I'll just have two of the junction connections instead of one.

Overall I like the Lebaron upgrade, I worked the calipers so I can still use the stock 15" lace wheels. Next time I'm gonna look into more of another swap someone did using nissan calipers.

Stupid question from someone who's just about to fall asleep on his keyboard.
"What is SSBC calipers?"

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Currently own: 87 GT 3400, 87 SE, 87 Coupe T-top
Previously owned: 84 Sport Coupe, 2 85GT's, 87 Coupe (T-top donor)
G.T. Fieros

quote Originally posted by ace5514: is there a way to make the brackets for the 88 calipers and lebaron rotors? this way you don't have to buy redrilled rotors from a vette and those of us with 87's can still have nice looking calipers without swapping out m/c's and boosters ect. fiero addiction has the brackets for vette rotors but not 11.25 rotors (which are cheaper)? i hate the look of the stock gm calipers and really don't want to spend $1000.00 or more, just for aftermarket aluminum ones. i know the 88 calipers are not cheep but thay can be found and a set of four would be about $500.00 (give or take). and as far as brake proportioning issues there most likely wouldn't be any using fiero brake equipment, even with larger rotors. plus it probably could be done for 88 cars as well! lets face it any way to save money is not a bad thing. al

There is a way to make any kind of bracket you want, but since you're asking, I'd assume you're not capable of making them.
Your best bet is to use 88 calipers with C4 Corvette rotors. You can redrill the rotors yourself with a drill press, as accuracy is not that important. The lug stud holes fit loosely anyway; centering of the rotor is accomplished with the hubcentric ring. You should be able to do this with a compass, protractor, etc... Getting the holes accurate within 0.5mm is fine, and they can be oversize quite a bit.

quote Originally posted by x-thumpr-x: Overall I like the Lebaron upgrade, I worked the calipers so I can still use the stock 15" lace wheels. Next time I'm gonna look into more of another swap someone did using nissan calipers. Stupid question from someone who's just about to fall asleep on his keyboard. "What is SSBC calipers?"

Nissan has calipers suitable for a mid-engine car?
SSBC is a brand of aftermarket brake parts.

The Lebaron brake rotors have 3 advantages:
-Same bolt pattern 5 x 100mm
-You can still use the original 15 inch Fiero wheels
-No centering rings needed

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Jürgen Martin
white GT 87
Germany

quote Originally posted by pmbrunelle: Nissan has calipers suitable for a mid-engine car?

I saw the pictures on Pennocks I believe. Someone in Alberta just bought a Black GT this year (calgary area I think) and it had Nissan Calipers with it's brake upgrade. The new owner first thought someone put SS on them then he realized "NI--AN" was just removed. The fronts were a double piston type, not sure what the backs are. I haven't done much research into them yet but they do look like they belong on a Fiero.


Found the pics, I really like the look of this Fiero. Like to learn more about the brake upgrade.







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Currently own: 87 GT 3400, 87 SE, 87 Coupe T-top
Previously owned: 84 Sport Coupe, 2 85GT's, 87 Coupe (T-top donor)
G.T. Fieros

[This message has been edited by x-thumpr-x (edited 12-17-2009).]

quote Originally posted by x-thumpr-x: I saw the pictures on Pennocks I believe. Someone in Alberta just bought a Black GT this year (calgary area I think) and it had Nissan Calipers with it's brake upgrade. The new owner first thought someone put SS on them then he realized "NI--AN" was just removed. The fronts were a double piston type, not sure what the backs are. I haven't done much research into them yet but they do look like they belong on a Fiero.

I am speaking from a brake bias point of view. Normally, brakes from a front-engine car are not suitable for a rear-heavy mid-engine car.

Brakes taken directly from a front-heavy car swapped into a rear-heavy car will result in the rear brakes doing less than their share of work, and premature front wheel lockup.

Best results (stopping distance) are obtained with approximately the same hardware at all 4 wheels; that is:
Identical discs (same diameters)
Identical calipers (or similar piston areas)

I was unhappy with my LeBaron swap until I changed the front 2-1/2" calipers for 2-1/4" ones. They are a better match for the 2-1/8" rears - not perfect, but I'm satisfied now. It really is worth the research to find well matched calipers. If you're intent on using Nissan calipers, you will probably have to mix and match between different models.

Another alternative is to use 4 identical calipers all around, with mechanical spot calipers for the parking brake.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 12-17-2009).]

Does anybody know the maximum rotor thickness the Cadillac/Camaro calipers can handle?

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Jürgen Martin
white GT 87
Germany

another try

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Jürgen Martin
white GT 87
Germany

Come on guys. Somebody will know it.

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Jürgen Martin
white GT 87
Germany

I have those ssbc calipper set on my car. Here is a link to some pics.


http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/8318832

[This message has been edited by ericsfiero (edited 01-10-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Brembo-Fiero: Does anybody know the maximum rotor thickness the Cadillac/Camaro calipers can handle?

You can always head to a local parts house and ask to see a rotor for the appropriate car. Take some calipers with you.

Hi Eric,

your brake swap looks really nice. Are these the LeBaron Rotors?
Did you use the SSBC rear caliper in the rear or is it also a front caliper?
How is the performance of your brake system? I am especially interested in
the brake balance. What caliper adapters did you use?

A lot of questions, but i am very interested.

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Jürgen Martin
white GT 87
Germany

Please excuse my weak powers of observation, and not noticing your location before. My apologies.

I would suggest you visit a 3rd generation Camaro forum and ask them for the front rotor thickness (when discs are new) of a Camaro (1985 should work).

I don't think calipers would be designed to tolerate thicker than stock discs. Normally, a caliper should fit a disc like a glove - a properly designed one anyway...

If you want to run thicker rotors, you can always mill the brake pads thinner. I thought about doing that to run Grand AM ventilated discs with stock Fiero calipers at one point.

sorry for the delay martin, I moved to a new house, lots to do

here are the references: archie brake kit + ssbc 2 caliper f10 one piston pn a181 and 2 caliper f10 sport r1 single piston

I will change the rotor to cross drill and ebc brake pads pn dp31173c

ps i have another new set 2 hubs 4 braket and 2 extra rotor if you want

Hello everyone, I used the SSBC calipers on a Lebaron 11.25" swap over six years ago. The calipers are exact in dimensions as the S10/cadillac/Tornardo calipers. Having the dual piston in the front works really well, and the rear with parking brake is so much easier. Something like this I really did not offer as an opption because these callipers are very expensive.when I did this first install the rear calipers just came out design and were double the price for each than the fronts ad a pair. I will have to find where i have some pictures and post them up for everyone to see.

Thanks.

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