I am all ways looking at Stuff and was thinking due to a few other threads that are going on about a better transaxle and from what i read the Audi 5000 trans axle is stout with the only problem being the pinion bearing wanting to come through the case but a plate can be made that reinforces it to solve that problem . My ? is how much angle can be run in the CV shafts due to with a V8 install i am thinking axle center on the trans would be about 7 inches behind the spindle

7" sounds about right.
I have an Audi 5-speed in hopes of eventually using in a Diablo replica, but with that one you stretch the cradle about 11-1/2 inches so you move the whole engine forward.
According to the measurements I took the rear of the transmission would be close to the back of the car with no stretch.

yes it would and the trunk would be lost or not as deep but if it is a good transaxle that can take a beating then it would be worth it.
are you using a Kennedy Engineering adapter http://www.kennedyenginc.com/Pages/default.aspx

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 05-24-2012).]

Yes, I was going to use the Kennedy adapter and a Team321 (Dave Held) longitudinal tubular frame.

http://www.team321.com/MidE...rutEngineCradle.html

Nice !

well i just went out in the rain to look at what a 7 inch angle would look like and it's not enough to be worried about considering a off road truck looks like they have more angle on them . what i like about the longitudinal engine is Room it seem that it is hard to get the LS engine to fit or a N* then try servicing it it looks like that might be a pain in the a$$ the 1 draw back is loss of trunk space oh boy thats a big deal you wont be able to put that on extra bag of grocery's in .

engine man, you might have already found this site but if not it shows how to install the plate you are referring to.
Mike

http://stweb.peelschools.or...tepbyStep/index.html

thanks great info ! I just called Kennedy Engineering and it was $580 for the flywheel and adapter for a SBC. clutch and pressure plate where about 4 to 5 hundred . One Other thought is th Audi 4.2 V8 300 HP stock and 390LBS dry weight according to a guy on the GT40s.com site this is the threads second post down http://www.gt40s.com/forum/...udi-engine-info.html

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 05-25-2012).]

i did some measuring the SBC is 28 inches long with short WP and that is from the front of the wp pulley to the bell housing flange so if you take the wp off and just run an electric wp you can move it about 6 inches forward and sense the fire wall is at an angle the engine can go ahead further so the axle flange would end up in the 5 to 7 inches behind the wheel center . I checked the angle out it wasn't bad at all. you can use the 01X 6 sped and it comes out the same and they claim it is tuff enough with out mods for 700 HP and over 450 FT lbs of torque they are found in A4 TDI

From what I've read, the max combined angle of vertical and horizontal angle should be under 25 deg. How much horizontal angle would a 5-7" difference in trans/axle centerlines create?

i want this for my car, now.

with the SBC i think the fire wall would need to be moved 3 or 4 inches to get the angle down to acceptable but with the 4.2 Audi V8 it's a whole new ball game. since the engine is 19 inches long from front of the damper pulley to the bellhousing flange and with that i feel that the axle centers could be down to 2 or 3 inches out of alignment way under the 25 degree angle

This guy has one behind the 3800 SC motor mounted longitudinally. I can try to get you his contact info- he seems to be very friendly and I am sure he won't mind sharing info

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089378.html


t

quote Originally posted by cam-a-lot: This guy has one behind the 3800 SC motor mounted longitudinally. I can try to get you his contact info- he seems to be very friendly and I am sure he won't mind sharing info https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089378.html t

Would be interesting to know what transaxle / adapter he used.

Has anybody measured the firewall to axle centerline on a stock Fiero? It looks like it would be almost 27" from crank pulley to axle centerline on the Audi 4.2 w/trans. Even that seems a bit long for a non stretched chassis.

quote Originally posted by seajai: Has anybody measured the firewall to axle centerline on a stock Fiero? It looks like it would be almost 27" from crank pulley to axle centerline on the Audi 4.2 w/trans. Even that seems a bit long for a non stretched chassis.

The axles are about 24" to 25" from the front cradle bolts, which are pretty close to being flush (if not recessed passed) the double firewall panel which would be right where the balancer/crank pulley needs to go. Old rule of thumb was 24" of room between pulley and axles for a no-stretched fiero.

It seems to me that a longitudinal mount benefits from equal length axles and more room for a less restrictive exhaust. More choices of stronger transaxles. Engine torque is more of a problem though.

i don't see why engine torque is a problem but i might be missing something. If it is 24 inches from the bolts then you would be about 3 inches out of alignment and that would put the axle at about a 10 degree angle with axles that where 20 inches long center of cv joint to center of cv joint. oh i forgot this would be with the Audi 4.2 V8

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 06-06-2012).]

quote Originally posted by dratts: It seems to me that a longitudinal mount benefits from equal length axles and more room for a less restrictive exhaust. More choices of stronger transaxles. Engine torque is more of a problem though.

With the transverse manual transmissions, you can install an intermediate shaft to have equal length axles... if you're concerned about that. It's really not a concern for the Fiero once the control arm bushings are addressed.

Quite a bit of talk was had several different times over on MadMechanics site. I have always wanted to put a Longitudinal into my 3" stretched 355 replica.

Through much discussion, we determined that the firewall area around the centre tunnel where the engine would sit would need to be pushed into the cab by about 4" to clear everything on a V6 3800 or 3.4 type motor with a couple inches of rear placement on the axles. V8's were more intrusive into the cab. The Audi V8 being shorter would be about the same as the V6 installs. You lose your trunk space in the centre. You can always leave some of it on each side of the trans for at least a couple packs of gum or something anyway....

Biggest piece on this type of build would be how far into the cab you need to punch the firewall to get the engine placed a close to straight at the axles as you can. The Kennedy Engineering adapter plate is 1" thick so make sure that adds into the length.

I am interested to hear more about people's thoughts on this. Almost makes it worth while to get a wreck and place the combination into it to see how much needs to be cut away....

Cheers
Don

I don`t know how much of an angle the axles could be before you might have wear problems, and I know that CVs are somewhat different than u-joints but even on lifted or lowered trucks you usually use a wedge on the leaf spring perches to correct the angle of the pinion to the output of the tranny via the driveshaft, which is considerably longer than an axle.

CVs where made to run at high angles with out robing power like a U joint does so it really isn't a big deal up to a point and like was said back a few post stock CV joints are fine up to around 25 degrees and with the length of the axles that would be used is around 6 inches out of alignment

quote Originally posted by engine man: i don't see why engine torque is a problem but i might be missing something. If it is 24 inches from the bolts then you would be about 3 inches out of alignment and that would put the axle at about a 10 degree angle with axles that where 20 inches long center of cv joint to center of cv joint. oh i forgot this would be with the Audi 4.2 V8

I was referring to how the frame try's to twist from engine torque in a longitudinal engine. Remember the pictures of cars lifting one of the front wheels on take off at the strip?

you don't get any twisting due to it is all 1 unit . to get the twisting you are talking about the engine and transmission need to be separate from the rear end and a drive shaft placed between them then you will get the rotational force's due to there not connected all together in one unit

loving this thread. I have wanted to do a longitudinal engine swap for soooo long. I just piced up a 88 GT for $$$ cheap. I still may do this to it. One day.

Is it the groups opinion that the Audi trans is the best one to use, over the flipped G-50? Or are we talking about it becuse of size. A recent episode of "Gearz" had an installment with the G-50 and went into all that is needed to flip it to work.

California Motorsports has a lot of info on V8/Audi or G50 swaps. http://www.californiamotors....net/Accessories.htm

Is the goal to keep the wheel base the same, or do a small 3-5" stretch?

Rob

------------------


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88 GT, ex-parts car, soon to be a driver.
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no stretch is needed in my opinion for the 4.2 Audi V8 it is only 490 MM long from the front of the crank pulley to the bellhousing flange that is just about 19.25 inches long . now you have to remember the fire wall is at an angle slanting forward from top to bottom so the lower you go with the engine the more forward you can go plus the pulleys are low on the engine so you can push it ahead till the timing belt covers just about hit at the top of the heads gaining you another inch or 2

quote Originally posted by dratts: I was referring to how the frame try's to twist from engine torque in a longitudinal engine. Remember the pictures of cars lifting one of the front wheels on take off at the strip?

That only happens with cars that have the engine and differential separate. It's worst on live axle cars and affects IRS cars to some extent, but does not happen at all on Mid/rear transaxle cars or front engine/rear trans torque tube cars like Porsche 928's and C5/C6 Corvettes.

these pic show the angle of 7 1/2 inches of rise in 19 iches of length (it is 25 degrees)

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 06-07-2012).]

If you want to take pictures of something, take pictures of that 19" Audi V8.

these are not my pictures but they are of a Audi ABZ 4.2 V8 Last picture is from this thread that tells the length it is the second post down http://www.gt40s.com/forum/...udi-engine-info.html

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 06-07-2012).]

Which Audi(s) were fwd only? Have been trying to find some sort of list but not having much luck. I'd think a swap of this nature would require an entire donor car to get the necessary wiring and computers to make it all run.

for a 016 transmission you need to look at 90,100, & 5000 series they had both FWD and AWD years are from about 1983 to 1995
i have found the transmission for as low as $75 and the Audi A8 4.2 engine is from 1997 to 2003 i think and have found as low as $300 from http://www.car-part.com/

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 06-07-2012).]

quote Originally posted by engine man: for a 016 transmission you need to look at 90,100, & 5000 series they had both FWD and AWD years are from about 1983 to 1995 i have found the transmission for as low as $75 and the Audi A8 4.2 engine is from 1997 to 2003 i think and have found as low as $300 from http://www.car-part.com/

Is that a manual trans? Did they have a fwd auto?

the 016 is a manual 5 speed FWD if you want an automatic just go find a VW passat w/o 4 motion the latter year ones are 5 speed automatic and if you really want to spend some money you can get the 01x six speed manual or the 6 speed auto

oh ya in like 2005 or 2006 VW passat went to transverse engine

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 06-07-2012).]

quote Originally posted by engine man: these are not my pictures but they are of a Audi ABZ 4.2 V8 Last picture is from this thread that tells the length it is the second post down http://www.gt40s.com/forum/...udi-engine-info.html https://images.fiero.nl/2012/PA060099.jpg http://images.fieroforum.co...P)JDrS16g~~60_58.jpg http://images.fieroforum.co.../IMG_0819750x562.jpg

What's the bore size on that engine?

Or rather the bore center dimension. 19 1/4 seems exceptionally short, but if it has a small bores packed together with thin walls, then I could see it getting that short. The Northstar bore center is 102mm. It's *designed* for transverse mounting from the beginning and isn't that short. The BMW V8 bore center is 98 mm and it's not that small either, although BMW doesn't have as much incentive as Audi or Cadillac do to keep the timing and accessory drives compact.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-08-2012).]

If you were to get an 016 though you only want the FWD not the AWD as you won`t have a rear drive.

I'll have to go and measure the V8 in my 2005 A6. It does not have timing belts, rather, Audi redesigned the 4.2 for 2005 to use timing chains, and they are at the rear of the engine (at the flywheel). That may be a better arrangement overall, as there's significantly less stuff on the front of the engine, and without the timing belt covers, the front of the engine has a lower profile.

Additionally, the chains _generally_ mean less maintenance.

I love the Audi V8 in my A6. It's a 40 valve engine, of about 340 HP. It can propel a 4000+ lb car to 60 in a little over 6 seconds, so I would imagine in a Fiero it would give sub-5 second times, if you can keep it hooked up. The redline on mine is at 6800 RPM, and it sounds oh-so-sweet up there.

quote Originally posted by Will: What's the bore size on that engine? Or rather the bore center dimension. 19 1/4 seems exceptionally short, but if it has a small bores packed together with thin walls, then I could see it getting that short. The Northstar bore center is 102mm. It's *designed* for transverse mounting from the beginning and isn't that short. The BMW V8 bore center is 98 mm and it's not that small either, although BMW doesn't have as much incentive as Audi or Cadillac do to keep the timing and accessory drives compact.

Found this on Wiki:

4,163 cubic centimetres (254.0 cu in) 90° V8 engine; 18.5 millimetres (0.73 in) cylinder bank offset; 90 millimetres (3.54 in) cylinder spacing; bore and stroke: 84.5 by 92.8 millimetres (3.33 × 3.65 in), stroke ratio: 0.91:1 - undersquare/long-stroke, 520.4 cc per cylinder

I looked at this engine in a friends A8 quattro and the 1st thing that hit me was how short the engine was. I grabbed a tape measure and it's under 20".

quote Originally posted by seajai: Found this on Wiki: 4,163 cubic centimetres (254.0 cu in) 90° V8 engine; 18.5 millimetres (0.73 in) cylinder bank offset; 90 millimetres (3.54 in) cylinder spacing; bore and stroke: 84.5 by 92.8 millimetres (3.33 × 3.65 in), stroke ratio: 0.91:1 - undersquare/long-stroke, 520.4 cc per cylinder I looked at this engine in a friends A8 quattro and the 1st thing that hit me was how short the engine was. I grabbed a tape measure and it's under 20".

Yep, very short. But very wide. Not good for a transverse install, but nearly ideal for longitudinal. Of course, the engines aren't cheap...at least the newer ones, but sometimes you can get a very good deal on them if you buy a totaled car.

I wouldn't count on using the Audi engine management though, unless you are also fitting most of the other stuff, due to the immobilizer technology they use. While I'm sure that it _could_ be done, the effort would be monumental compared to using something like Megasquirt.