History: Purchased as an open box from ebay vendor, appeared to be in good unused condition. Has about 15,000 miles or less on it since installed in the car.

Symptoms: After about 2000 miles use I had an incident on a hot day where I found the coolant level was unusually low with no sign of a coolant leak. Some months later I repaired a seaping heatercore although the leak from it was small and could not account for the level of missing coolant in such a short period of time.

The above scenario occured more times than I can recall but it was inconsistent and initially unpredictable until recently, when I noticed it appeared to parallel days where the car was pushed into several cycles of sustained boost where after the car was shut down and allowed to sit for a few hours, the next drive without warning would result in an approaching overheat and the discovery of on a few occasions as much as 1 gal of coolant missing with NO leak apparent on the ground except for the latch style radiator cap at the engine which I detected venting through the latch after reinstall.

I addressed the cap and thought the problem was solved until I found my eng temp approaching 260 again not long after and no sign of a coolant leak. I suspected the Cometic head gaskets since some have had trouble with the multi layered steel gaskets. As a last ditch effort to rule them in or out, I put dye in the coolant and found no leaks at the engine or anywhere else.

I arrived home in FL Tuesday after fighting some heavy rains (477 mile trip), which I cussed later after arriving home and having to deal with it while putting brakes on another car. The rain helped me find the leak, as it washed it out of the front end of the car onto the pavement where the dye was easily visible in broad daylight without the black light.

Below is what I found and I have no explanation for it.







As you can see, with the coolant fan installed you can't see this and unless coolant hits the ground you will not suspect it either as the coolant is being sucked, or pushed through with the fan on or the car moving and evaporates before you see it. By the time you stop and park the coolant level is below the leak point so you don't see coolant on the ground eventhough the system is under pressure.

It is also a pressure leak so despite how it looks in the picture it takes operating temps and pressure to get it to leak. I drove around town for at least 3 days after adding the dye with no detectable loss of coolant and even ran into boost a few times each day. Near the end of the long drive on a flat stretch of 70 mph I-75 I did a series of long boosted accels, slowing down and flooring it which is probably when it started to leak again.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 09-20-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: History: Purchased as an open box from ebay vendor,

Don't do this. Problem solved.

Caveat Emptor

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-20-2012).]

So was this a simple (or not-so-simple) coolant leak?
Or were you pressurizing the system with a leaking head gasket, and helping it along?
(Asking because I had a blown head gasket in a 3.4 a while back that was pressurizing my system. It did take out my heater core.)

quote Originally posted by Will: Don't do this. Problem solved. Caveat Emptor

Agreed as a general rule but it was purchased from the manufacturer/ representative instead of a private owner who happened to have one on hand to get rid of. Since there was more than one open box unit available at the time it kind of makes me wonder what are the odds someone would return such a nice piece of equipment from the outside appearance.

I've tried to come up with something I could have done to cause it but at this point I've got nothing, given the unusual nature of the failure being in nearly the exact same location on both sides and the radiator having relatively low mileage on it in addition to the fact it has been leaking for much longer than the actual mileage at time of discovery.

I'll bet it's another case of a china made piece of crap part failure...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts

Here are some guesses:
1 Bad Pressure cap that allowed excessive internal pressures to build
2. Coolant too acidic. Did you use distilled water?
3. Defective manufacture: Poor brazing or solder joints. .
4. Coolant additve damage.
5. Overstress of unit during shipping, storage or installation..

The fix. You can remove the radiator, buy a package of Alumiweld rods at Harbor Freight, clean affected areas with a wire brush and resolder with a mapp torch.Alumiweld will hold and it melts at a lower temp than the welds on the radiator so it should upset anything.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Just pull it and take it to a reputable radiator shop. Have them pressure check and fix it. Shouldnt be too much with it out for them on a pretty new radiator. Since it was an open box, ill bet it was returned and exchanged for the original buyer. Could be no one even knew it was bad if it was laying around a while. I see stores putting returned/ defective stuff right back up on shelves.

I am also having a problem with my new 3 core. Joseph please PM me the name of brand that made your radiator.

I have sent the radiator back for a replacement. Or them to pass judgement that it was my fault for opening the box.

The flux from the welding process was in these threads. This is where the transmission cooler line attach. The flux is also down inside the transmission fluid cooler part of the side tank. Look in the bottom of the hole with out the threads in the first picture:

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 09-20-2012).]

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Just pull it and take it to a reputable radiator shop. Have them pressure check and fix it. Shouldnt be too much with it out for them on a pretty new radiator. Since it was an open box, ill bet it was returned and exchanged for the original buyer. Could be no one even knew it was bad if it was laying around a while. I see stores putting returned/ defective stuff right back up on shelves.

X2, a GOOD shop shouldn't have any trouble fixing it. A lazy shop will try to sell you a new one.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Here are some guesses: 1 Bad Pressure cap that allowed excessive internal pressures to build 2. Coolant too acidic. Did you use distilled (Or deionized) water? 3. Defective manufacture: Poor brazing or solder joints. . 4. Coolant additve damage. 5. Overstress of unit during shipping, storage or installation..

all possible plus...
Energized coolant can wreck the radiator. The radiator And maybe the heater core will go first because of thin metal and joints.
Coolant can be energized when the grounds are bad. Especially when you try to start the car.
Google search coolant electrolysis test Do the test when trying to start too.
Check grounds and battery cables

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

Thanks guys, my grounds are good with a common point for all sensor grounds to the block and an 8 to 6 gauge ground from block to frame in addition to the block to battery and frame ground. It's a champion radiator. This thing nearly ruined my engine with the number of surprise high temps I've caught in the nick of time.

It certainly isn't a characteristic failure with that kind of uniformity, if only one side was leaking I wouldn't be as suspect but with both sides leaking in the same location it's a different story.

The radiator hasn't been in the car long enough not to mention the coolant for that to be the cause. At this point the coolant is pretty dilute since I've added so much water since February of this year when the current motor was installed.

I do intend to take it to a shop as it does look like it could be repaired pretty easily using an external approach.

They electrolysis test will make sure your grounding plan is good.

quote Originally posted by theogre: They electrolysis test will make sure your grounding plan is good.

.04 to .1 depending on my ground point so it's fine according to this source and two others; http://www.ve-labs.net/elec...ysis-101/how-to-test

After being pressure tested and examined by a local radiator shop, the radiator was found to have a massive number of leak points at the headers and therefore needs to be fixed with a new one. Severe vibrations, old age/long shelf life was given as a possible cause of the header cracks, or since it was open box, possibly subjected to some unknown treatment. All four mount bumpers were in place while installed in the car. At some point I may ship it back to see if champion will warranty it.

Thats worrying as I paid ALOT to get one over here, in the hope that it would last a very long time.....gulp. Mine was supplied with the incorrect cap (pressure rating was too high) but from your local shop dignosis, it doesn't sound like this is your problem. Thanks for sharing your experience.

If Champion sold it to you, they have I think a 5 year warranty. They have been great with me. They told me if their 2 row radiator didnt keep my car cool, theyd send me a 3 row for free. If it was off an EBay seller, good luck.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: If Champion sold it to you, they have I think a 5 year warranty. They have been great with me. They told me if their 2 row radiator didnt keep my car cool, theyd send me a 3 row for free. If it was off an EBay seller, good luck.

I was never impressed with the performance although I didn't do a back to back comparison. I do recall the all metal 2 row brass unit it replaced bringing engine temps down quicker. I had it checked out also and it needs repairing before use.

I had a talk with the rep and while both radiators were at the counter I noticed the upper row of the 3 row was useless from the start as the rows appeared to have been welded shut. I also noticed the tubes in the 3 row were thinner than those in the brass unit. That may be a draw back due to possible reduced flow rate. An issue he proposed in regards to the 3 rows is the effect on airflow through the radiator in which case no matter how many extra rows you have, if you can't get enough air through it to take advantage of the extra rows what's the point. Since our radiators tilt forward airflow is already reduced by Sine of the angle.

During the Summer even with the thermostat removed and the cooling fan going my engine would still idle at 180+ degrees which I believe is still a bit high without a thermostat at idle. I felt a 3 row radiator should cool better than that and this was before the engine was modified.

I'll have a quote for a recore of the brass unit tomorrow but I have a strong feeling it's going to push me towards the used $50 unit I located.

Does the unit have a cut in the frame to release stress?
OE ones does... (top and bottom)

Picture is my oe 87 that died from tank failure.

The frame doesn't expand as much (if any) as the tubes when hot and as a result no cut or other means of dealing w/ thermal stress may means the tubes will see damage at the tank joints...

I was able to talk to the folks at Champion Cooling in California today. They have shipped me a new radiator after inspecting my returned unit. They were real nice to me over the phone. They 'SAID' they were gonna check the replacement before shipping it out. We will see about next Monday.

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 09-26-2012).]

quote Originally posted by theogre: Does the unit have a cut in the frame to release stress? OE ones does... (top and bottom) Picture is my oe 87 that died from tank failure. The frame doesn't expand as much (if any) as the tubes when hot and as a result no cut or other means of dealing w/ thermal stress may means the tubes will see damage at the tank joints...

No, there's a solid plate at the top with the semi circular reliefs at the bottom also seen at the top of yours. That's a good point considering the leak area is toward the upper part of the radiator.

Interesting relief cut. I wouldn't cut the new radiator, as this will probably void the warranty.

Just got off the phone with Champion, they're going to replace it under warranty.

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: Just got off the phone with Champion, they're going to replace it under warranty.

That is great news. Good to hear of a company that truely stands behind their product.

How long will it take for you to install the replacement unit?

Good Luck, I hope every thing goes smoothly.

~ Bob ~
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"Its nice to be important.
Its more important to be nice."

[This message has been edited by FieroBobo (edited 09-27-2012).]

quote Originally posted by FieroBobo: That is great news. Good to hear of a company that truely stands behind their product. How long will it take for you to install the replacement unit? Good Luck, I hope every thing goes smoothly. ~ Bob ~

The replacement is coming from CA and since I will not be here when it arrives anyway, I didn't bother giving them a card number to hold on file until they receive the bad part in order to go ahead and ship a replacement right away. I'll be purchasing a used replacement for the time being and don't anticipate having it changed out until Nov. possibly. It's cooling off anyway so there shouldn't be any issues. It's an inconvenience but considering the alternative could have been a blown motor from the sudden, rapid high engine temps I'll take it.

I am happy to hear that they are gonna replace your defective unit for you. So far I haven't any complaints with their service. We'll see when the radiator gets here about next Monday.

Mine came today. I could see where the box had been opened. The protective wrappping did appear to have been taken off and re applied. It looks perfect from the outside.

Thanks you Champion Cooling in California.
-Joe

It will be a while longer for me. In the mean time I have a new stock radiator installed and so far the difference in cooling is marginal at best, otherwise it cools just as well. I believe the hit and miss effective cooling using a stock radiator with an engine swap and greater displacement is because some have the 1" thick core and others the 1.25" thick core. The used radiator I passed on had a 1" thick core, I don't recall seeing one before that.

Those of you really needing a heavy duty radiator will want to go with the Griffin unit that has two 1.25" tubes for a ~2.5" cooling thickness instead of the 3 row with three .5" tubes for a 1.5" total cooling thickness over the 2.5" thick core. It'll cost you though.

The shop that performed the pressure test showed me a new kind of tube that was a single 2.5" row that had projections internally to increase surface area internally in addition to the increased width. It appeared to be the same type of tubing used in the liquid to air intercoolers. He said it would last forever and did appear to be sturdy enough to do so, my concern would be with its cooling efficiency through the thicker tube wall. Again it would cost you, about the same as the Griffin $5xx +.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 10-02-2012).]

Received the new radiator replacement so they are true to their word and I like that, especially when the only hassle in the process was packing it up to ship it. The failed radiator had been in use for about 2yrs although it apparently had been leaking long before I discovered it.

I have installed mine into the car and filled it with coolant. I tightened down the two coolant lines before I put the fan back in it's place. No leaks anywhere. I am happy so far with the replacement. MAybe 50 miles driven. It is performing as it is supposed to. I will be giving it a good test this weekend at the Red River Ruckus.
-Joe

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 10-10-2012).]

Mine got a 900 mile test over the weekend. I am happy to report no problems. It didn't get over 192* the whole trip. AC on or off, 35 or 80mph, up hill or downhill. It didn't seam to make any difference. I checked it severral timed with my scan gauge.

quote Originally posted by josef644: Mine got a 900 mile test over the weekend. I am happy to report no problems. It didn't get over 192* the whole trip. AC on or off, 35 or 80mph, up hill or downhill. It didn't seam to make any difference. I checked it severral timed with my scan gauge.

You need more cubes and a water cooled turbo to put some hurt on it. That's pretty good though, the AC condenser gives off some serious heat. I found that out while flushing the system using a water hose while the radiator was out.

I turned the AC on to get the eng temp up enough to open the stat (3.9L has the stat at the pump housing inlet where the heater lines feed into also)
and went back to the front of the car and got too close to the condenser which had no airflow at the time. I nearly got burned it was so hot, the AC line pressure also went sky high during that mental lapse because the compressor shut off meaning the ~350 + psi switch kicked in.

I know if the AC is on, one needs aiar flow from somewhere.

Got the replacement radiator and right away noticed a difference between it and the previous, note the upper and lower border of the core, it has an additional reinforcement compared to the first radiator and disappointingly the same blocked upper 3 rows, a loss of about 2.5% cooling capacity and this if the same row blockage does not exist at the bottom of the core as well. I'm still appreciative regardless.