This weekend Capt Fiero is dropping off his baby for a motor swap and it'll be getting our best treatment
He'll be getting a mild Delta cam, a ported set of heads, steel rocker bridges, 3" exhaust and our new modified intake with 300ci plenum and N* Throttle body
Of course, we will have dyno results. I don't know about him getting our headers but we are certainly going to have to throw them on for a run
Geeze you think you are excited, I have had to start taking sleeping pills at night because I can't stop thinking about whats being done, and just how much power you can squeak out of the motor, then what mods I'll need to add once I do start driving it to Track Days. I really wish I lived closer so I could be there taking care of some of the odd things while you guys are doing the big stuff. On top of what you are doing, I need to re-install my rear sway bar, and things like that.
I can't wait to get back to driving the car daily. It was my daily driver for years until the head gasket started giving me fits. I had also installed an Isuzu from a FWD car that had a really crappy ratio 5th which had me reving the motor to nearly 4000 to cruise on the highway which did not help the matter all. Thats when I parked and started driving the Yellow 88GT as my daily driver.
Well here is a pic of the car as it sits right now.
Make sure to view the 1st thread to see how the motor was setup for my 85GT. The chassie on the 85 had gotten pretty bad so I moved most of the 85GT body and interior and the V8 drive train into an 87GT, most of that is covered in the 2nd link.
Then here is the current thread that has all the latest updates. including the Nitrous install on the 4.9 https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/121434.html Ya know when we put that motor together into the 85GT we made it look so nice and over the years it just got to look like junk.
I fired the car up and drove it around a bit, it runs really well. However this was the final straw.
With me out of time to work on it, and me really wanting to drive it, your shop has been the only shop in nearly 20 years that I am going trust enough to work on my car. Add to the fact that every build I did on that, it was an engineering feat, because I didn't know what worked best, so it was dig around the shop find something that would work then "make it work". I hope you can find a better routing for the heater lines when you have it out and clean up some of the messy wires in the engine bay.
Side note, the Rad Fan wire going to the ECM is not hooked up at the moment. There are 2 pin outs for the fan out from the ECM I had the ECM feed wire on a toggle switch to go between those two pin outs. That way in the summer I could have the fan come on early, and on the winter the fan would not come on until it was actually needed. (hey it gets to be 20 below here, we need all the heat we can get)
However its now 3am and my daughter will be awake in 5hrs so I need to go and try to force myself to get some shut eye.
I am just glad she will be in good hands.
David ------------------ 857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.
[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 10-03-2012).]
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06:07 AM
82-T/A [At Work] Member
Posts: 24130 From: Florida USA Registered: Aug 2002
On a side note, there's a member on here that I'm friends with (forget his user name). He's also friends with Darth Fiero, but he has a 4.9 that he's REALLY hot-rodded. He's got the Allante intake among other things, but he's also had his cyl heads ground and professionally worked by some guy who's retired that used to do this for some race organization or something ridiculous (the guy was like a Joe Mondello of motors, except not Oldsmobile). Anyway, his operating range goes well into the 6,000 rpm range and builds power throughout that RPM range.
I can try to get specs and post them... or maybe I can get him to post on here again.
He doesn't own a Fiero anymore, but has a few Citations.
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05:35 PM
Capt Fiero Member
Posts: 7657 From: British Columbia, Canada Registered: Feb 2000
Oddly enough I thought the motor was destroyed when I got the milkshake present. I changed the oil twice with crap oil after 10mins of run time on each change, then filled it up a 3rd time with Good Oil. I have since driven it 5 short trips. I even used the Nitrous a couple times figuring that if the motor was toast a good hit the Nitrous should send the heads or at the least radiator into orbit. Even doing a Nitrous assisted Burnout through 1st and 2nd the oil is still clean. However if I run it for more than a 15 min drive, enough air gets into the cooling system to stall the water pump and it overheats.
Hence why its going off to Friend of Yours.
------------------ 857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.
The Allante intake was designed for torque. The runners are far too long for the 4.9. The motor was an attempt at shorter stroke for higher revs with the torque of the 4.9, worked alright. The 4.9 needs breath up top
The issue with the 4.9 is the absence of a plenum and the small throttle body bores. The intake actually is not bad. The intake ports have plenty of area and the short runners, while small, keep the velocity up. With a proper plenum and TB you can supply more than the heads can handle
Still need to weld it to the intake
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10:33 PM
Oct 4th, 2012
Reallybig Member
Posts: 974 From: Calgary Alberta Canada Registered: Mar 2011
Better, but not by much if at all. With the flow analysis we have done, it would increase flow per port about 6% if we were to use the Allante lower intake. But, this intake or the Allante with this plenum will supply more air than the heads can use
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03:46 PM
gem1138 Member
Posts: 631 From: Baton Rouge, LA Registered: Aug 2007
I've had fantasies of a 4.9 with a flat crank. A custom crank and cam would do it but I have no idea how much that would set you back. Then with equal length run headers and intake, you’d have a beast of a different color……and sound! I know. They sound great already.
The car is loaded on the trailer strapped down ready to go we are leaving tomorrow evening for the shop
------------------ 857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.
The Allante intake was designed for torque. The runners are far too long for the 4.9...
That's the first time I heard that... The shorter stroke helped it rev higher, but revving higher doesn't get you the same HP as a motor with more displacement if you aren't breathing better... If anything, I would start with the Allante base intake and make shorter runners from there...IMHO Those runners were long but they elimineted all sharp turns and hence allowed good flow.
That's the first time I heard that... The shorter stroke helped it rev higher, but revving higher doesn't get you the same HP as a motor with more displacement if you aren't breathing better... If anything, I would start with the Allante base intake and make shorter runners from there...IMHO Those runners were long but they elimineted all sharp turns and hence allowed good flow.
I don't think you read the rest of the post
The long runners enhance torque and the addition of a plenum and larger throttle body increase the overall range. Again, the lower intake is not that much better. We have done extensive flow testing on both intakes, bench and in Cosmos, and the gains are not worth it.
Allante intakes are hard to find and we aren't about to duplicate the casting so people can have it. This is a much simpler solution
Are there any OBDII Ecms that might work with the 4.9? I have been playing with Android's Torque App on a few cars and absolutly love the stuff it can read and do.
------------------ 857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.
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10:40 PM
Capt Fiero Member
Posts: 7657 From: British Columbia, Canada Registered: Feb 2000
Ok we are Loaded, we are leaving after my Brother In Law gets off of work tomorrow night, that should put us in Roy around 8pm assuming no issues at Customs/Immigration and or traffic around Seattle.
I'll call you and let you know how things are going tomorrow night.
I snapped a few pics of the beast just so you know what is coming.
I know I kinda overdid it with the straps and the chain, but with mine and his driving style, I wanted to make sure that nothing could or would fly open, and if we had to make a panic stop that the car would not be able to come loose. If something did break on a chain or strap there are safety's on top of safety's. He is a professional truck driver and I am ex commercial flat deck operator. I love this trailer, no ramps or anything needed. Just unlatch the pivot on the deck, the entire deck swings down, drive on slowly and once you pass the 1/2 way point it gently flattens back out, then lock the deck flat and away you go. I really want one of these trailers. (I don't have a truck personally big enough to haul a trailer but I can still dream can't I)
Side note, my nice yellow 88GT that I came to your shop in, got hit 2 days ago. Not a total loss by any means, body shop says that cosmetically there is about $1000 in damage to the rear skin, and they will now for sure when they get the skin off.
Well here is what is coming to your place. Replacement front tire and all new front suspension parts are in the passenger floor board. Hopefully with enough warning you can meet us at the shop, but if not, I can put the keys in the night drop.
------------------ 857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.
Ok we are Loaded, we are leaving after my Brother In Law gets off of work tomorrow night, that should put us in Roy around 8pm assuming no issues at Customs/Immigration and or traffic around Seattle.
I'll call you and let you know how things are going tomorrow night.
I snapped a few pics of the beast just so you know what is coming.
I know I kinda overdid it with the straps and the chain, but with mine and his driving style, I wanted to make sure that nothing could or would fly open, and if we had to make a panic stop that the car would not be able to come loose. If something did break on a chain or strap there are safety's on top of safety's. He is a professional truck driver and I am ex commercial flat deck operator. I love this trailer, no ramps or anything needed. Just unlatch the pivot on the deck, the entire deck swings down, drive on slowly and once you pass the 1/2 way point it gently flattens back out, then lock the deck flat and away you go. I really want one of these trailers. (I don't have a truck personally big enough to haul a trailer but I can still dream can't I)
Side note, my nice yellow 88GT that I came to your shop in, got hit 2 days ago. Not a total loss by any means, body shop says that cosmetically there is about $1000 in damage to the rear skin, and they will now for sure when they get the skin off.
Well here is what is coming to your place. Replacement front tire and all new front suspension parts are in the passenger floor board. Hopefully with enough warning you can meet us at the shop, but if not, I can put the keys in the night drop.
Man, I'm sorry to hear about the car! We have finally moved everything out of the old shape and to the house in Mercer Island, so sometime by the end of the month we'll be all set up with for machining and paint down in Roy
I should be able to meet you out there. The GF just had all four of her wisdom teeth extracted so I'm home with the baby for the day
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11:14 PM
Oct 5th, 2012
Mickey_Moose Member
Posts: 7543 From: Edmonton, AB, Canada Registered: May 2001
Well good luck with this, from my personal experience - don't expect much. I pretty much did very much the same, Delta's cam, ported, polished and flow tested: intake, heads and throttle body (plus the ECM tunning).
Instead of the power going flat after 4000 rpm, it did raise it to about 4800 rpm. IMHO you will still need to install larger valves in the head as well and even then the only way to get some "real" performance out of the 4.9l is to use some sort of air induction (turbo, super charger). I personally wasn't going to dump any more money into the engine and would go a different route the 'next time'. I use to have a file that had the graphs and what not and I was looking for them a few weeks ago but don't know what I did with them.
Maybe you will have better luck, but I don't see any major gains as I have been there, done that.
edit: just to add, that yes it was drawing a fair amount of air it - so much so that if I was using the stock air filter unit (water diverter section removed) and I pushed the engine it would choke due to lack of air (it was almost like hitting a rev limiter). I was like WTF when it happened the first few times before I figured out what was going on. When I had the car out for track days I always used an open element type filter on top of the throttle body so that it could draw all the air it needed in. I used the stock for daily driving/shows as it looked much more factory installed.
[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 10-05-2012).]
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10:24 AM
olejoedad Member
Posts: 19111 From: Clarendon Twp., MI Registered: May 2004
There is a little slack in those straps its just tight enough to keep the hooks from coming loose. I was worried about wind trying to rip the spoiler off or worse yet, I don't really trust the decklid latch. Even if the suspension bounces a bit, there is not enough tension to damage the spoiler. Instead of just looping the strap over the spoiler I choaked it around the spoiler so it could be a little loose yet still hold it in place.
------------------ 857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.
[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 10-05-2012).]
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12:29 PM
87antuzzi Member
Posts: 11151 From: Surrounded by corn. Registered: Feb 2009
There is a little slack in those straps its just tight enough to keep the hooks from coming loose. I was worried about wind trying to rip the spoiler off or worse yet, I don't really trust the decklid latch. Even if the suspension bounces a bit, there is not enough tension to damage the decklid. Instead of just looping the strap over the decklid I choaked it around the decklid so it could be a little loose yet still hold it in place.
I would strongly suggest that you attach the hooks on the straps to something on the car rather than the trailer. If the straps are attached to the car, there is absolutely NO chance for accidental damage. The car WILL bounce on the suspension, the way the straps are attached now, you are running the risk of ripping the wing off of the decklid.
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02:10 PM
Capt Fiero Member
Posts: 7657 From: British Columbia, Canada Registered: Feb 2000
I would strongly suggest that you attach the hooks on the straps to something on the car rather than the trailer. If the straps are attached to the car, there is absolutely NO chance for accidental damage. The car WILL bounce on the suspension, the way the straps are attached now, you are running the risk of ripping the wing off of the decklid.
I was thinking of that, and I may just do that.
------------------ 857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.
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02:34 PM
Mickey_Moose Member
Posts: 7543 From: Edmonton, AB, Canada Registered: May 2001
I would strongly suggest that you attach the hooks on the straps to something on the car rather than the trailer. If the straps are attached to the car, there is absolutely NO chance for accidental damage. The car WILL bounce on the suspension, the way the straps are attached now, you are running the risk of ripping the wing off of the decklid.
Good point - although I would just put the car on the trailer the other way so that the front is facing the direction of travel and that would solve a bunch of potential issues.
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04:42 PM
Capt Fiero Member
Posts: 7657 From: British Columbia, Canada Registered: Feb 2000
Good point - although I would just put the car on the trailer the other way so that the front is facing the direction of travel and that would solve a bunch of potential issues.
That would solve the wind issue, but might get us killed.
We did load it forward at first, but there was so little tung weight that all it took was the 2 of us to stand on the back of the trailer to go into negative tung weight. Which is a HUGELY DANGEROUS way to tow, especially at speed. Trust me I would have much preferred to have it forwards, but not going to risk the car, trailer and tow vehicle just to keep from doing extra straps up.
If we had a longer trailer with the axle further back then it would not have been a problem.
------------------ 857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.
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04:56 PM
PFF
System Bot
Mickey_Moose Member
Posts: 7543 From: Edmonton, AB, Canada Registered: May 2001
Originally posted by Capt Fiero: That would solve the wind issue, but might get us killed.
We did load it forward at first, but there was so little tung weight that all it took was the 2 of us to stand on the back of the trailer to go into negative tung weight. Which is a HUGELY DANGEROUS way to tow, especially at speed. Trust me I would have much preferred to have it forwards, but not going to risk the car, trailer and tow vehicle just to keep from doing extra straps up.
If we had a longer trailer with the axle further back then it would not have been a problem.
The long runners enhance torque and the addition of a plenum and larger throttle body increase the overall range. Again, the lower intake is not that much better. We have done extensive flow testing on both intakes, bench and in Cosmos, and the gains are not worth it.
Allante intakes are hard to find and we aren't about to duplicate the casting so people can have it. This is a much simpler solution
The smallish valves and tiny ports are a limitation that you just can't get around with this engine!! I am doing a 4.9L swap right now. Its a cheap old technology (OBD1) swap giving 200HP and 275ft lbs of torque and maybe 25 hwy MPG. I will just put on an improved exhaust and an MSD 6A box and leave it be. On a price vs performance ratio it is not too bad stock but when you start scewing with that engine, it becomes obvious that its not a SBC. Short of hanging a turbo on that powerplant any money and work put into it will not equally return an equal increased in power. A while back there was a guy on this forum by the name of Rick Stewart who decided to build an "all out" 4.9L The end result was an expensive gas hog that provided minimally more horsepower. After 6 months he sold his Fiero in disgust. Try if you like but I do not believe that you have the right engine for a high horsepower build. .
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
The smallish valves and tiny ports are a limitation that you just can't get around with this engine!! I am doing a 4.9L swap right now. Its a cheap old technology (OBD1) swap giving 200HP and 275ft lbs of torque and maybe 25 hwy MPG. I will just put on an improved exhaust and an MSD 6A box and leave it be. On a price vs performance ratio it is not too bad stock but when you start scewing with that engine, it becomes obvious that its not a SBC. Short of hanging a turbo on that powerplant any money and work put into it will not equally return an equal increased in power. A while back there was a guy on this forum by the name of Rick Stewart who decided to build an "all out" 4.9L The end result was an expensive gas hog that provided minimally more horsepower. After 6 months he sold his Fiero in disgust. Try if you like but I do not believe that you have the right engine for a high horsepower build. .
This is not my car. I do not dictate what mods are going to be done. Rick also did not tune his car
I have personally built 13 4.9l and 6 4.5l Fieros, I do not care what your opinion is. I was, AFAIK, the first one to build a 4.5l Fiero back in 1990. I have made it very clear I do not like you Dennis and absolutely could not care less about what you have to say.
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10:30 PM
Oct 6th, 2012
BV MotorSports Member
Posts: 4821 From: Oak Hill, WV Registered: May 2001
Ok so I made it 45mins away from the house in BC when I realized, that I did not have the keys to the house in Oregon, AND I had left the keys for the V8 Fiero in my buddies truck that I borrowed the car trailer from. Frack, so over an hour to get the keys together. (I had remembered the important stuff like Passport, and wallet)
I did end up taking the strap for the Spoiler and hooking it to the cradle instead of the trailer, then added another strap from both rear wheel wells over the sail panels. Just for safety's sake.
We made it down perfect, car did not budge an inch, nothing flew anyplace that it was not suppose to. We made it to FOY at 10:30pm and unloaded the car, then got back on the road to Oregon and made it to Aurora at 1:30am. I will be heading back for BC on Sunday. Then will come back to FOY to pick up the car when its ready.
OMG I can't wait for this car to be done, even if it has the same power as a stock 4.9 with just a wider power band I will honestly be happy.
Dennis you and I have always been on good standing and I respect all your turbo stuff, so ya know what, I might just toss a small Turbo on this motor if it does not make enough power. PBJ proved that its solid for 12 second passes with a tiny undersized turbo, reliably. I figure this setup with a 5spd should give me 13 second times with decent gas mileage and a really reliable motor. With the great low rpm power of the 4.9 it will give me that kick in the pants feel any time I wish.
Between the first 4.9 install and this re-install I am going to have about 6000 total investment, and I know I could have done a cheap SBC or 3800SC swap for less, but I really like the 4.9, as a matter of fact we just sold our SBC 5spd car, because I actually (I know some of you will faint) prefer the 4.9 as a daily driver. I just wanted a bit more RPM out of it and FOY assures me we can accomplish this, in the same manner that the Allante intake works only better. There is also the fact that we have 3 other Fiero's still, so if I want, I can go nuts and install a Turbo SBC 5psd in one of the other cars. In our local club we have a S1 3800SC, a S2 3800 SC, a Turbo 4.5, a NA 4.9 a Northstar and the beast of the bunch a GM PP ZZ383 With a HUGE Turbo making over 700hp, (can make 1000hp but tuned down to 700hp for reliability) I have driven them all. Bang for the Buck and Fun Factor I love the low rpm torque of the 4.9 even though it can't keep up with a modded SBC or Modded 3800SC car, it still leaves a HUGE smile on my face.
So lets leave the floor open for FOY to post updates on whats going on. I would prefer to keep this thread clean of any bickering.
------------------ 857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.
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05:50 AM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40924 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: The smallish valves and tiny ports are a limitation that you just can't get around with this engine!!
quote
Originally posted by FriendOfYours: I have personally built 13 4.9l and 6 4.5l Fieros, I do not care what your opinion is. I was, AFAIK, the first one to build a 4.5l Fiero back in 1990.
Is the valve/port size info *NOT* correct?
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10:08 PM
BV MotorSports Member
Posts: 4821 From: Oak Hill, WV Registered: May 2001
