About a year ago I discovered and new, as far as I know, method of bleeding and actually adjusting the clutch release point in my fiero. After a year of testing different release points I have settled on the mid point release (as opposed to near the floor or top of stroke). I have found no issues, drawbacks, side effects, or anything to hinder this working on other fieros. I would like some other people to try it out and confirm that its not just an oddity with my car to be absolutely sure. If I am correct, this will solve many of the all too common clutch bleeding problems. At the very least it may help people set the clutch release point to wherever they like it best. It has worked every time without fail on my car. Try it out and post your results. It takes less then 5 minutes.

1: Make sure your master cylinder in filled with dot 3 or 4 brake fluid (or equivalent) or whatever fluid your car is setup to use.

2: Install a helper into the front seat. Make sure you helper is strong enough to press the pedal all the way to the floor. Younger children may not apply.

3: Have helper press pedal to the floor while you open the bleeder on the slave cylinder. Open only long enough to let out any air. Repeat step 3 until only fluid comes out topping off the master cylinder every couple times to keep it from running dry. It it runs dry start at step 1 until done correctly.

4: Now the trick I've been using. After bleeding all air out of the lines, back out the slave cylinder mounting bolts (or nuts as the case may be). Have helper press the clutch pedal to the floor. Tighten the bolts back up.

That's it. This one simple step at the end does all the work for you. The amount to back out the nuts/bolts will depend on where you want the clutch to release. Start with about 1/4" and go from there. 1/4" in what I use to get a mid release point. If this works for your car there will be no mistaking it the first time you drive it. Be careful not to back out the nuts/bolts too far as that can potentially cause the clutch to not grab very well if at all.

Why I think this works:

I believe this method works because it causes a pressure preload on the pressure plate. This preload removes all slack in the system at the very least and at the most can actually release the clutch.

Please take a few moments and see if it works for you. Post your results, concerns, or questions if you have any. If it works for you please rate me accordingly. Thanks for listening.

Fieroseverywhere.

Edit: My car is an 85 fiero GT with a 4.9 and 5speed fiero getrag. I am using Rodney Dickman master and slave cylinders and clutchnet red level 3 pressure plate and 6 puck disc. This is for informational purposes only as I believe the parts have very little to do with this method working.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 11-30-2012).]

The master cylinder has a bypass that allows the pressure to bleed back to the master cylinder reservoir when the pedal is in the rest position. This makes it not possible to maintain a 'preload' in the hydraulic system.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 11-30-2012).]

Yet it works in my car. Is there a difference in Rodney's master that I'm not taking into account?

Before you jump right into saying why you "think" it will not work lets hear from some people that have actually given it a try. The purpose of this thread is to relay what is working for me and see if it works for others also. I'm hoping to help out with a common problem. Thank you for the information maybe my assessment of what is happening is wrong. Any ideas of another reason for this working?

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 11-30-2012).]

I'm cool with whatever works, however if there isn't a possible way that it could actually work, you would expect me to say so, right?

Here is one way it could work. If your push rod under the dash is somehow too long, preventing the master cylinder from fully returning to it's normal resting position, it will keep the bypass port blocked and will keep pressure in the lines. This could happen if you have and adjustable master cylinder pushrod and it is adjusted too long.

The bypass port is also know as the return port


How you can see if your bypass port is working. Take the cap off and have someone press the pedal SLOWLY. If you see fluid squirt up that is the bypass port letting fluid out until it gets covered. If your assistant presses the clutch pedal fast, the brake fluid will squirt quite high in the air and then land all over. Note - Your brake Master Cylinder will also do the same.

Also I don't know for sure if Rodney's MC has the bypass port, however I don't believe it would work correctly if it did not.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 11-30-2012).]

I'm trying to figure out what problem you are trying to solve.

The clutch system is non adjustable, maybe there is something different with the Dickman parts?
Mine is OEM.
The only thing I can think of is the clutch arm that the rod from the slave contacts has been rotated , but I'm not even sure if that would result in what you are describing.
BTW, the only way for that to happen is if someone unbolted it and moved it.

[This message has been edited by ZaraSpOOk (edited 11-30-2012).]

As far as I know everything is working perfectly. I do have an adjustable banjo on the master. It was only adjusted to remove the slop in the pedal. This was done years ago and has never been changed.

I discovered this trick when I was installing Rodney's ultimate getrag shift kit. After I was done installing all the new brackets (and new shift cables) I pressed the clutch pedal. Damn, it went to the floor.... but still had pressure. In my excitement to try out this new shorter shifts I forgot to bolt the slave back on. Of course when I pushed the pedal the slave piston went to the end of its travel and of course I could not push it back in (if I could it wouldn't be much good, now would it). Instead I opened the valve and released enough pressure to get the nuts started. Then I tightened them down. I went for a test drive and immediately noticed a significant difference in the clutch release point. In fact this first time the clutch release was so high up it would not fully release. More throttle = clutch slip. I light throttled it back to the house and sat down to figure out what I just happened.

After I figured out what I had done differently I went out and cracked open the slave bleeder and released the pressure. The clutch went back to its normal release near the floor.

I spent the next couple weeks thinking about the oddity I just witnessed and enjoying my much shorter shifts.

Later on I decided to attempt the duplicate and procedure and do some testing. I was able to duplicate and reset my release point to slightly higher then the floor (~1/8" back out on the nuts this time). Drove it around for a few more weeks. No issues, no change over time. It held the new release point. Again I decide to reset the release point and move it higher yet. Again it works. I did this a few more times trying out different points until I settled on my current setup.

This release point has never changed on me after I set it no matter how long I drive for or how long it sits. There never seems to be any bleed back. This current setup has been working for 6 months and seems to be the same as the day I set it. If my explanation of why this is working is not correct I'd love to hear another, as opposed to why it can't work. You will have a very hard time convincing me that it can't work because it is working.

This is why I'd like to see others try this out and confirm if possible. I'm still hopeful that it is not just my car and can turn into a solution for others beside myself.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 11-30-2012).]

What you just described is similar to how a cable operated clutch is adjusted. But it shouldn't work on a hydraulic clutch. Because hydraulic clutches are self adjusting. Every time the clutch pedal returns to the rest position, the hydraulic system is reset.

IMO, the fact that your hydraulic system is acting like this indicates that there is some issue with the hydraulic system.

quote Originally posted by ZaraSpOOk: I'm trying to figure out what problem you are trying to solve. The clutch system is non adjustable, maybe there is something different with the Dickman parts? Mine is OEM. The only thing I can think of is the clutch arm that the rod from the slave contacts has been rotated , but I'm not even sure if that would result in what you are describing. BTW, the only way for that to happen is if someone unbolted it and moved it.

I'm not trying to "solve" anything. I way I see it, this is a benefit, not a problem. My car works perfectly and has for years. I have many miles on the current setup and have in fact ran 3 different transmissions (getrag, isuzu, and muncie 4 speed), 2 different clutches, 2 different flywheels and several master and slaves over the years in just this one car. I have no issue bleeding my parts as long as they are good to begin with. I am well versed in how the entire fiero works. I stumbled onto this by accident and it has proven to me that my car in fact is adjustable. I'd like to know why and see if anyone else can duplicate my results.

In the time its taken to write posts talking about why it wont work I could have tested it on 20 cars and had definitive proof one way or the other.

If your clutch is currently working, just back out the bolts slightly, press the pedal, and tighten them back up. If you release point changes then what I'm saying can be confirmed. If not then I will chock it up to my particular setup and will investigate more to find the difference in why mine does work this way.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 11-30-2012).]

When I get a chance, I'll try it out.

That said, your master cylinder may be missing the fluid drain-back hole. Or it may be clogged. If you don't mind manually adjusting the clutch hydraulics, then I don't see a problem.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: When I get a chance, I'll try it out. That said, your master cylinder may be missing the fluid drain-back hole. Or it may be clogged. If you don't mind manually adjusting the clutch hydraulics, then I don't see a problem.

I don't mind. I'm not really adjusting the hydraulics. I'm just I only have to set it once and it takes only a couple minutes. I just pulled out my extra masters. I have one each first gen and second gen (one from isuzu car. one from muncie). I believe both are still good. I'll take them apart and check them out. Neither will confirm if there is something different with my car since it has a Rodney master on it.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: What you just described is similar to how a cable operated clutch is adjusted. But it shouldn't work on a hydraulic clutch. Because hydraulic clutches are self adjusting. Every time the clutch pedal returns to the rest position, the hydraulic system is reset. IMO, the fact that your hydraulic system is acting like this indicates that there is some issue with the hydraulic system.

I have to agree and seeing I grew up on real rod clutches I would say you have been getting into my medication. Be careful, too much and you will forget who you are.

Steve

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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

He he. I'm one of the few people I know that is not on any medications. I haven't gotten into yours either.

I spent some time looking into the archives and came up with this thread...
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...100421-2-082567.html

If Rodney's master functions the same then there are only a few possibilities for what is causing mine to work differently.

1: The fill valve hole is plugged. Actually this is not really a possibility as the fluid travels out of the reservoir without a problem. It would have to be fully plugged to hold pressure and that wouldn't allow fluid to move out of the reservoir.
2: The fill valve spring is compressed keeping the fill valve from fully opening. As I release the pedal the fluid travels back into the cylinder but does not go back into the reservoir. This would still allow fluid to travel out of the reservoir and into the cylinder This would also keep the system slightly pressurized and could potentially allow adjustment of the pedal throw. As mentioned earlier in this thread this could be caused by the adjustable banjo being adjusted out too far. So I double checked by removing the banjo from the pedal. Verified, the piston does in fact extend fully. This leads me to believe this is not the issue.

Now lets throw another wrench into this. The one on my car appears to be a 2nd gen design which functions differently. If Rodney's function the same then it should use a double seal piston (which it does) which also acts as the fill valve. Go figure.

This leads me back to Rodney's master and its design. Does it have a check valve that works differently then standard fiero ones? I know I can't forcibly move fluid back into the reservoir from the slave no matter position of the master piston. I really wish I had a second fiero with standard parts to try this out on.

Is it possible Rodney's new design incorporates something like a RPV (residual pressure valve)? If so then this might account for the reason why my setup can maintain a positive pressure and allow me to adjust the release point.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 11-30-2012).]

NEVER PUSH A USED MASTER TO THE FLOOR! EVER! Its a great way to spend a extra 40 bucks on a new master when you push your plunger into the all the crap at the back of the bore that it normally never see's under pressure. You also don't even need a helper, just apply vac at the slave and you have a bleed clutch.

The easy way to test your theory is to just leave everything as you have it.
Try to push your slave rod into the slave. If it pushes in the by-pass is working and what your doing should not work.
If you can't push it in then something is different with your master and you have a unique system.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: I know I can't forcibly move fluid back into the reservoir from the slave no matter position of the master piston. I really wish I had a second fiero with standard parts to try this out on.

With a properly working stock clutch master cylinder, you can force fluid back into the master by depressing the piston in the slave cylinder. As Dodgerunner mentioned, you can do this by pressing on the clutch arm. I have actually done this before, so I know that it's true.

If you can't depress the piston in the slave cylinder, then chances are your master cylinder is missing the pressure vent feature, or it is not working properly. You may want to contact Rodney Dickman to see if he omitted the pressure vent feature in his clutch master cylinders.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 12-01-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: I'm not trying to "solve" anything. I way I see it, this is a benefit, not a problem. My car works perfectly and has for years. I have many miles on the current setup and have in fact ran 3 different transmissions (getrag, isuzu, and muncie 4 speed), 2 different clutches, 2 different flywheels and several master and slaves over the years in just this one car. I have no issue bleeding my parts as long as they are good to begin with. I am well versed in how the entire fiero works. I stumbled onto this by accident and it has proven to me that my car in fact is adjustable. I'd like to know why and see if anyone else can duplicate my results. In the time its taken to write posts talking about why it wont work I could have tested it on 20 cars and had definitive proof one way or the other. If your clutch is currently working, just back out the bolts slightly, press the pedal, and tighten them back up. If you release point changes then what I'm saying can be confirmed. If not then I will chock it up to my particular setup and will investigate more to find the difference in why mine does work this way.

woa there!
all I am saying is that on an OEM car what you are describing will not be happening, but you do not have an OEM setup,
what you are describing may work, but unless we have your setup, we cannot verify or disprove what you have found
I am not saying what you have done won't work, I am saying there is no way for many of us to verify it

doing what you describe with YOUR system will not have any affect on an OEM one from my experience
and I do something similar when I bleed at the slave
you need someone with your setup to try it

[This message has been edited by ZaraSpOOk (edited 12-01-2012).]

In fact the way I bled my slave when I replaced the piston with the dual seal one was to turn the slave over so the feed line was the high point and pushed the rod into the slave. This pushed all the air in the slave back to and out of the master. Then you slowly let the slave rod out to fill the slave with fluid. Repeat it several times and all the air is pushed through the master and you have a filled system.

At least it worked for me.

The problem you will have if the bypass (return) port remains blocked when the pedal is at rest is as the fluid expands due to heat, it will have the effect of putting pressure against the clutch release fingers. I would also think the pressure retained by the seals would eventually leak past the seal.

There was a guy a while back who did have this kind of problem.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/122955.html

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: The bypass port is also know as the return port

Sadly no, A common mistake by people that don't know how cup seals work. In many cases, like this image, treat the cup seal as a one-way valve. (The image looks like the secondary piston on the brake master cylinder.)
port labeled as return is actually equalizer port. The small hole keeps system pressure at zero when piston(s) at rest, Like the fluid expands when the calipers are hot.
Return port is the bigger hole and the return path fluid goes through the bigger hole and seal to fill the system. Like this...


"Note - Your brake Master Cylinder will also do the same."
The brake master cylinder is the "quick take up" design. The primary/rear section will squirt to release the quick take up function. You will make a mess when the cover is open and you push the pedal.
See my Cave, Quick Take-up notes


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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 12-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner: The easy way to test your theory is to just leave everything as you have it. Try to push your slave rod into the slave. If it pushes in the by-pass is working and what your doing should not work. If you can't push it in then something is different with your master and you have a unique system.

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: With a properly working stock clutch master cylinder, you can force fluid back into the master by depressing the piston in the slave cylinder. As Dodgerunner mentioned, you can do this by pressing on the clutch arm. I have actually done this before, so I know that it's true. If you can't depress the piston in the slave cylinder, then chances are your master cylinder is missing the pressure vent feature, or it is not working properly. You may want to contact Rodney Dickman to see if he omitted the pressure vent feature in his clutch master cylinders.

Do what these two said, try to push the arm/slave rod back in while the pedal is at rest.
If it is rock hard then you have a problem, prob the adj. rod too far out(garbage anyway)
Odds are you can't push it in.
If it does push in then it has to be looked at further.

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