Well in an effort to become one of a kind and have some fun in the process, I have decided to go all in on supercharging my stock 2.8. Looking to see boost pressures between 5-7 psi. This will become a highly criticized build and I'm expecting. If you have advice or suggestions, post away. If you don't have either, stay away. Thanks!
The Background 86 GT 2.8 Stock Internals, 7730 (to be installed soon) w/ Knock Sensor, All new ignition system, MSD Blaster Coil, Fully functioning cooling system, S10 Booster upgrade. and other non-essentials.
The Parts Eaton M90 from a Ford Thunderbird - Free eBay Air to Air Intercooler (Bar and Plate) - $140 Intercooler 2 Bar Map Sensor -$19 Map Auto Meter Boost Gauge - $10 7730 w/Chip - $25 (Chip tune price not included. TBD) Cowl Hood Scoop - $100 Scoop
Current Total as of now = $294
The Build The basic design is roughly going to look like this:
The SC will be mounted to a "T" shaped bracket with 3 threaded rods attached to the T and holding the SC to the T:
The T will then attach to the engine to hold the SC in place. The Air outlet for the SC will face towards the rear of the car where it will piped into an intercooler which will be placed in the stock muffler position with an air dam behind it. Air out of the intercooler will be piped straight into the stock throttle body location. The stock throttle body will be connected to a custom bracket that will be bolted to the rear of the SC and will be facing the same direction as stock. To help with decklid clearance, a hole will be cut in the stock decklid and a cowl hood scoop will be attached to the decklid to allow the SC to fit underneath. Exhaust system has been opened up with 2.5" piping all the way around with a Thrush Turbo muffler to provide some back-pressure.
Future Plans
Dawg Plenum Mod
EGR Delete
I will be updating regularly on my progress. HELP IS HIGHLY APPRECIATED!
Currently, Im am seeking the answers to the following questions:
What type of code mask will be best for this application with the 7730?
To continue you on with the build, I need advice with how to mount the "T" I made to the engine. In this picture, this about where the SC will sit so I need to see where the best place to get this hooked up to is:
Thanks alot everyone and feel free to comment and help me out!
$8F is a good code mask for a low boost application on the 7730. If you are going to do the mail order tune then Darth Fiero can help. I believe there are others who do this also. You can also buy the tools to tune yourself for about $300 or so last I checked (been awhile). I switched to code59 after I wanted more than 15psi boost.
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08:35 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15669 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
I have seen only two supercharged 60* V6's here on this forum. One was used on Dave Suda's 3.4L Fiero GT. He's RotrexFiero on this forum but hasn't been posting much of late. Dave used a centrifugal supercharger that bolted in place of the A/C compressor. The other was a guy from Europe (Sweden rings a bell) who had mounted an small Eaton on the side of the block under the exhaust manifold. Knowing the trouble and the complexity of fitting a Supercharger on a 2.8/3.1/3.4 P/R engine I believe that the turbo is the easier and simpler way to go. The Supercharger is more unique but IMO the complex fabrication to mount it, the sealing and belt drive is going to be very challenging.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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08:40 PM
SSN669chris Member
Posts: 97 From: Newport, Rhode Island Registered: Feb 2010
I added a very similar SC to a VR6. I added a 7th injector, wideband and a Slit Second AIC1 Additional Injector Controller to supplement the stock ECU without a problem.
Arn, Really no way of putting it on the lower intake manifold. Maybe you can show me what you mean!
Thanks
Having not done one, it is pretty hard to show you. The lower plenum has 6 ports. You need to fabricate a box, aluminum 1/4" plate as material, to fit over the ports and a top on it to coincide with the exit port on the sc. In other words you eliminate the upper plenum completely. The real problem is dealing with the injector rail. Failing that, I just can't understand how you make the upper plenum work, unless you block off the throttle body intake.
Hope this helps.
Arn
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09:21 PM
oldbikeracer Member
Posts: 345 From: Sylvester, Georgia USA Registered: Jun 2012
Where do you get vacuum for all those things that need it with a forced induction system of any kind? Just my passing curiosity. It just dawned on me that with a turbo or supercharger there will be positive pressure in the intake where vacuum is normally ported from. Cruise control, brake booster, dash vent controls, etc. all require vacuum .
Could you use a manifold other than the 2.8 one you have? If you could use a carb or TBI manifold I think the supercharger would sit a lot lower. I'm not so sure the really long runners of the FI manifold would be necessary or helpful in your supercharge situation. There are a lot of older 2.8 TBI manifolds from pickups and Jeeps in the early 80's. I know there are some aftermarket aluminum manifold for small 4 bbl carbs might be even better.........Just some thoughts.
Having never seen one of these blowers I could be wrong, but I think the compressed air comes out the round pipe on top. Intake air comes in the rear? In any case, teh "T" bracket is no way stiff enough to mount the blower to, belt tension on the long snout will bend it for sure. You will need a nice mounting plate plus a nose support to something hard to get this going. Larry
$8F is a good code mask for a low boost application on the 7730. If you are going to do the mail order tune then Darth Fiero can help. I believe there are others who do this also. You can also buy the tools to tune yourself for about $300 or so last I checked (been awhile). I switched to code59 after I wanted more than 15psi boost.
Any idea on others who can do this for me?
quote
Originally posted by Arns85GT: Having not done one, it is pretty hard to show you. The lower plenum has 6 ports. You need to fabricate a box, aluminum 1/4" plate as material, to fit over the ports and a top on it to coincide with the exit port on the sc. In other words you eliminate the upper plenum completely. The real problem is dealing with the injector rail. Failing that, I just can't understand how you make the upper plenum work, unless you block off the throttle body intake.
Arn the intake is in the rear of the SC and the air comes out of that round tube on top of the SC. Its not like a typical positive displacement SC where it has the itake charge going out the bottom, it can be bolted anywhere.
quote
Originally posted by oldbikeracer:
Where do you get vacuum for all those things that need it with a forced induction system of any kind? Just my passing curiosity. It just dawned on me that with a turbo or supercharger there will be positive pressure in the intake where vacuum is normally ported from. Cruise control, brake booster, dash vent controls, etc. all require vacuum .
Leaving all my stock vacuum components, so vaccum to my BB and other vacuum controlled devices wont be affected.
quote
Originally posted by woodyhere:
Could you use a manifold other than the 2.8 one you have? If you could use a carb or TBI manifold I think the supercharger would sit a lot lower. I'm not so sure the really long runners of the FI manifold would be necessary or helpful in your supercharge situation. There are a lot of older 2.8 TBI manifolds from pickups and Jeeps in the early 80's. I know there are some aftermarket aluminum manifold for small 4 bbl carbs might be even better.........Just some thoughts.
Height doesn't concern me because of the cowl scoop ill be installing which will give me enough clearance.
quote
Originally posted by trotterlg:
Having never seen one of these blowers I could be wrong, but I think the compressed air comes out the round pipe on top. Intake air comes in the rear? In any case, teh "T" bracket is no way stiff enough to mount the blower to, belt tension on the long snout will bend it for sure. You will need a nice mounting plate plus a nose support to something hard to get this going. Larry
Yes your correct about the pipe and the intake air locations. I feel that the 1/4" steel I have will sefice for strength. Im welding in a piece of black pipe under the snout to 1. Support the snout and 2. Level the SC. Correct me if im wrong. I like your comment!
I see that this grabbing some interest and Its making me more determined to get this going! Still looking for advice for mounting to the engine so keep it coming.
I have seen only two supercharged 60* V6's here on this forum. One was used on Dave Suda's 3.4L Fiero GT. He's RotrexFiero on this forum but hasn't been posting much of late. Dave used a centrifugal supercharger that bolted in place of the A/C compressor.
The other was a guy from Europe (Sweden rings a bell) who had mounted an small Eaton on the side of the block under the exhaust manifold.
I built a centrifugal S/C mounted the same way as RotrexFiero. I did ALL this same research and looked at all the S/C options when I wanted to supercharge my 3.4L engine.
Could you use a manifold other than the 2.8 one you have? If you could use a carb or TBI manifold I think the supercharger would sit a lot lower. I'm not so sure the really long runners of the FI manifold would be necessary or helpful in your supercharge situation. There are a lot of older 2.8 TBI manifolds from pickups and Jeeps in the early 80's. I know there are some aftermarket aluminum manifold for small 4 bbl carbs might be even better.........Just some thoughts.
That would be the same arrangement as the Fageol supercharger setup (which already exists and has it's own matching manifold). Problem is because the heads are so close, there's no room for fuel injection. So TBI/Carb has to sit on top (through decklid).
Looks like he's trying to do the same kind of thing, but mount the S/C on top.
Yes this is almost exactly what I'd like to accomplish except for 2 key differences. Mine will be the M90 instead of the M62 and Second, mine will be placed on top without modification to engine placement.
Yes this is almost exactly what I'd like to accomplish except for 2 key differences. Mine will be the M90 instead of the M62 and Second, mine will be placed on top without modification to engine placement.
and no decklid...
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09:44 AM
PFF
System Bot
woodyhere Member
Posts: 399 From: prior lake, MN USA Registered: Aug 2011
Yes this is almost exactly what I'd like to accomplish except for 2 key differences. Mine will be the M90 instead of the M62 and Second, mine will be placed on top without modification to engine placement.
The mouting down the side of the engine looks far neater - why have you decided to go for a top mount? And I agree with those that said that the mounting you have pictured won't be up to the job. Good luck with the project.
The mouting down the side of the engine looks far neater - why have you decided to go for a top mount? And I agree with those that said that the mounting you have pictured won't be up to the job. Good luck with the project.
Bill,
The mounting on the side would eliminate the need for decklid mods but the alternator would need to be moved and with my A/C still functioning and in place, there wouldnt be a spot for it. Also id be interested in an alternative to the mount i made if you have one!
Ok so i have my tune for an 85 ECM complete, air to air inter cooler came in, 2 bar MAP is in, EGR deleted, and bracket to connect sc to engine is finished. My next move is to figure out what to do with the intake. I want to use the stock throttle body from the fiero and put it on the intake side of the SC. I've been told that the throttle body and sensors need to be BEFORE the Supercharger. Any truth to this? If not can i just hook up a pipe with an air filter to the intake side to the Supercharger? Man that would be simple haha but if not I'll have to fab up a mount. Been trying to take out the coolant plug to put the knock sensor in and the damn thing wants to strip. Any suggestions?
I've been told that the throttle body and sensors need to be BEFORE the Supercharger. Any truth to this?
I think with a MAF (Mass Air Flow) system it's preferred that it be before the S/C. The Fiero's SD (Speed Densify) setup can be after the S/C (that's what I have) It's the MAP (Manifold Air Pressure) sensor that the ECM responds to (clearly you have pressure if you're boosting).
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 04-29-2013).]
I like it I did something similar a few years back with a Nissan the 3.0L V6 and a M90 of a super coupe. although like someone else mentioned I used a HKS AIC & 7th injector, I left the OEM OBD1 electronics alone.
I would however like to insert my .02 cents. I think is would be much better if you removed the upper portion of fiero intake and modified the lower similarly to this...........
then you could make a bracket similar to the "T" you made to hole the SC down in the valley.
After reading this thread, Im starting to reconsider getting some kind of boost bypass valve. Anyone think that I should get one? Also does a BOV suffice as a BBV? (I know thats a rookie question).
After reading this thread, Im starting to reconsider getting some kind of boost bypass valve. Anyone think that I should get one? Also does a BOV suffice as a BBV? (I know thats a rookie question).
If you're running an intercooler or some sort of charge pipe, just tap in a BOV. I wouldn't put energy into a bypass unless it is already built into the SC.
I am running an intercooler so that should work out fine. Would something like this BOV work sufficiently? Also would the BOV be before the SC or after? My SC is before the throttle body.
Would a cheap BOV from eBay like I posted above suffice? Also where does the PVC hose connect into on the intake manifold
the cheapest/ best BOV's are the Bosch units made for mid 90's Sabb 9000 turbos. just a simple valve with 3/4" hose inlet & outlet. they can be has for about $20 @ napa or $10ish on ebay. The fake $40 greddy BOV's on ebay leak and greddy parts don't fit them.
The PCV woule run from the vale cover to between the TB and supercharger or if you don't have any fittings there before the TB would be fine, either way I'd run some sort of PCV catch can even if it just the little air/water seperator thing the DSM guys make for $8 out of home depot parts.
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09:13 PM
May 1st, 2013
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
After reading this thread, Im starting to reconsider getting some kind of boost bypass valve. Anyone think that I should get one? Also does a BOV suffice as a BBV? (I know thats a rookie question).
although valid in that situation... you are going to be in a much different airflow ratio at lower rpms, and you will have more volume.. I wouldnt particularly stress over it.
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