Okay, I finally took BOTH my '88 GTs to the scales today. They are both currently 5-spd Getrags and both had the same amount of fuel. They are both equally optioned including a/c, except that the V8 car has a sunroof. Additionally, they both have Fiero Store Class II trailer hitches installed on them. I had hoped to get the shipping weight for them, but couldn't. I'm guessing it's about 25lbs.
The silver car is bone-stock except for a 3.4 block and has all original intake and exhaust equipment including cat & muffler.
The blue car has an iron block/aluminum-head crate SBC V8, with aluminum rockers, valve covers, intake manifold and plenum, and full dual exhaust with dual cats, dual mufflers, and dual resonators.
I went to the Petersen gravel pit in McHenry IL at rt.120 and Lily Lake Rd. I can scan the weight slip if there's any doubt.
code:
Blue V8 car: 2960lbs - 30lbs Dave Stuff weighed on shipping scale ---- 2930
Silver V6 car: 2820 no Dave Stuff Difference: 110
Now, it's important to note that my blue V8 car originally had an automatic, which weighs 170lbs, versus the Getrag which weighs 90lbs. The differential weight is 80lbs. (https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/025173-2.html)
code:
110 -80 --- TOTAL WEIGHT GAINED IN THE SWAP: 30
For reference, here are the rated curb weights of all Fiero models from 1984-88:
code:
1984 Coupe/SC 2464 1984 SE 2480 1985 Coupe/SC/SE 2505 1985 GT 2572 1986 Coupe/SC 2504 1986 SE 2531 1986 GT 2696 1987 Coupe/SC 2546 1987 SE 2567 1987 GT 2708 1988 Coupe 2547 1988 GT 2735
I hope this settles some questions about weight gain in a Fiero GT with a V8.
I'm waiting for someone to say Archie must have been running the scale, becaue everyone knows a SBC swap will gain at LEAST 500lbs of dead weight.
Really awesome, Dave. I'll go with the 110lb figure, since I'd be starting with a 5-speed. I wonder how much weight FieroX's car gained? He's running the 4t6x series tranny, which is heavier than the Fiero automatic.
Could it be a 3800SC swap (with automatic) weighs MORE than an aluminum heade 350 with the 5-speed? Wow, and all those 3800SC owners didn't even know their handling sucked. Guess they'll all be selling their cars now.
Seriously though, thanks for the data. Very informative!
------------------ --------------Forever In My Heart---------------- Jack Daniel Miller --- Dec. 29, 1925 - Oct. 14, 2002 Ruby Cantrell Miller - Jan. 20, 1932 - Aug. 31, 2002 It won't rain all the time. The Sky won't fall forever, And tho' the night seems long, Your tears won't fall forever.
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06:54 PM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
Good post Dave those numbers definitely jive with mine 2900 lb. for my swap. Using the v6 weight I gained 80 lb.. I move my battery up front as well, so that means about 40 extra pounds in the back and 40 in the front. If anyone is concerned with that they should just lay off the cheese burgers LOL
Not starting anything here but my 3800Sc car weighs 2820 lbs with the 4t65 auto. High Performance Pontiac did the weighing at Maple grove raceway. Would be substantially lighter with the getrag. Screw the weight....when you taking that thing to the track?
Dave, what does the weight slip say about accuracy? I weighed one of my cars on a truck scale a few years ago and the scale read in something like 20 lb increments. Comparing two cars on that particular scale could have up to 40 lbs of error.
I'd really really like to see the somebody do a weight comparison on a good set of four pad race scales. This would weigh each corner of the car to the pound. Total weight would be exact and it would be also interesting to see what happened with corner weights.
Yep that 30 lbs is just awful, LOL and considering the battery is moved up front that should balance things out nicely.. And a hush falls over the V6 crowd,, hmm were have I heard that before? j/k But seriously I had the weight issues figured out way before I had my swap done, but somtimes its like talking to a wall with some of these people trying to get them to belive somthing. Thanks for the info Dave.
------------------
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08:08 PM
GMGW3 Member
Posts: 471 From: West Allis, WI Registered: Dec 2001
Dave, what does the weight slip say about accuracy? I weighed one of my cars on a truck scale a few years ago and the scale read in something like 20 lb increments. Comparing two cars on that particular scale could have up to 40 lbs of error.
Recount recount!! dont forget to count the dimples and hanging chads!
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08:12 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
I'd really really like to see the somebody do a weight comparison on a good set of four pad race scales. This would weigh each corner of the car to the pound. Total weight would be exact and it would be also interesting to see what happened with corner weights.
Hey Doug, why don't you send me your four pad scales & I'll weigh both cars in front of a video camera with a Federal Reserve auditor present. Then I'll send the scales right back to you.
Archie
Let's see with a posible 40 lb error you are talking about, Dave's V-8 car could be actually lighter than the V-6 car, Hmmmmm.
Archie I am sure glad you said that. It seem like that even with the numbers this will never end. People won't believe you even if the weight slips were posted. Dave gave the numbers and offered to post the slips but even with that, there will be non believers.
Thanks Dave for taking the time to do the weight on your cars. Maybe this will help to solve the controversy that has been on this forum for a long time. At least it gives me some kind of idea what mine weights.
Bob
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09:38 PM
California Kid Member
Posts: 9541 From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan Registered: Jul 2001
no this isnt true, a v-8 fieor with aluminum heads with a getrag weighs at least 3,500lbs with barely any gas and no spare tire.
V-8s kill handling of course the v8 owners and people whove driven them say there was hardly any effect especially with the addition of a rear swaybar, but i think i know more about the swap weight than anybody else since ive never driven one and own a V-6 GT and they are lying
heheh
------------------ --Adam-- 1987 Blue GT 5-speed IM AOL: GTFiero Remember, always brush your milk, drink your teeth, dont do sleep and get eight hours of drugs
remember, Drive it like you stole it...nice and slow so you dont get your @$$ caught by the cops
Originally posted by LS1swap: Good post Dave those numbers definitely jive with mine 2900 lb. for my swap. Using the v6 weight I gained 80 lb..
Ah, but don't forget, you still don't have an exhaust yet...
Just so there's no question about it, let me say that both my cars had the original spare tires and jacks installed in them at the time of the weighing. They also both had all exterior and interior parts installed including their driver and passenger seats.
I did this to know for sure to myself how much weight increase I created with this swap; it has concerned me as it has concerned many others. If it happens to convince some people that weight is not as much of a factor in an SBC swap as some think it is, so be it; but I'm just posting this data for others to make their own determinations with facts instead of hearsay, speculation and inaccurate or inapplicable data. It is possible, and even easy to make an SBC much heavier than this with iron and steel parts instead of all the aluminum which was utilized in my engine, basically used wherever it was feasible and affordable, but being mindful of weight in the parts you choose can make a substantial difference. And for those who have deeper pockets and for whom weight is a more significant consideration, it is still possible to substitute an aluminum Chevy block to save another 90lbs at a cost of about $2000 more. Flexibility is a hallmark of the SBC, and this is another example of it.
Dave
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10:30 PM
LoW_KeY Member
Posts: 8081 From: Hastings, MI Registered: Oct 2001
I've got a 88 GT and wanted to do a LS1 swap. The reason I wasn't going for a 350 or a 383 is (mainly) becuase of the weight gain becuase I'm going to be autocrossing the car. I would think that the LS1 with aluminum block and heads would be lighter than an iron block 350 and especially a zz430 crate engine. If crazyd or ls1swap ever happen to pass by SC they can use some scales as long as I get a ride I'd like to see both cars, along with a stck 88GT with the same options, weighed on the same set of scales. I've got all the options, including A/C, but I'd like to lighten up (the back end preferably) of my car without getting rid of the A/C. Thanks, --Bryson
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09:29 AM
Howard_Sacks Member
Posts: 1871 From: Cherry Hill, NJ Registered: Apr 2001
I'm not saying that the scales are wrong, but Doug has valid points.
and
Have any of you guys actually picked up and held the Archie engine adapter plate? It's a big, ugly, heavy piece of steel. For the money that the Archie kit costs, he should be embarrassed that it's not 6061(and the video too ... .but that's getting off topic).
That plate is adding a ton of weight that there is no reason to be added. Less is always better.
The solid engine mount also uses a much more material then is needed. And if you need to weld, how much of a kit is it?
quote
Hey Doug, why don't you send me your four pad scales & I'll weigh both cars in front of a video camera with a Federal Reserve auditor present. Then I'll send the scales right back to you.
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10:34 AM
PFF
System Bot
Nashco Member
Posts: 4144 From: Portland, OR Registered: Dec 2000
I thought Archie's engine adapter was aluminum??? I also have never heard of having to do any welding with the kit???
Howard, are you sure you're talking about the right V8 kit?
By the way, I'm not on any sides, but I also would like to see some good corner scale measurements. Not just on V8s though, for all of our cars (coupes, GTs, you name it)...because many fiero owners could use that to try and relocate weight for better weight balance. From what I've read the corner weight comparisons are quite a bit different, and need more weight on the left rear and right front.
Bryce 88 GT
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10:44 AM
janice_ho Member
Posts: 35 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: May 2002
Those are some great numbers. My question is your car - V6 came in about 100lbs more than the curb weight, what do you think the extra weight is? The gas would weigh about 80lbs. Also, there is 275lbs difference between the 84 and the 88 - That is a lot of weight, I wonder where that came from?
No flame here, just curiosity. All the other four-corner weights I've seen were severely biased to the right-rear corner. (( all other weights were on v6 cars, btw )) Although yours does have a right-rear bias, it isn't anywhere near the other numbers I've seen. What is different about yours?
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10:56 AM
Howard_Sacks Member
Posts: 1871 From: Cherry Hill, NJ Registered: Apr 2001
Nasco, I saw the kit for the first time and watched the "install" video sunday. If you want a good laugh, sit down with some buddies and popcorn and watch it.
Yes, you need to first do a trial fit, then take out the cradle again and then weld.
I was shocked myself.
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11:23 AM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
I'm not saying that the scales are wrong, but Doug has valid points.
and
Have any of you guys actually picked up and held the Archie engine adapter plate? It's a big, ugly, heavy piece of steel. For the money that the Archie kit costs, he should be embarrassed that it's not 6061(and the video too ... .but that's getting off topic).
That plate is adding a ton of weight that there is no reason to be added. Less is always better.
The solid engine mount also uses a much more material then is needed. And if you need to weld, how much of a kit is it?
[QUOTE]Hey Doug, why don't you send me your four pad scales & I'll weigh both cars in front of a video camera with a Federal Reserve auditor present. Then I'll send the scales right back to you.
[/QUOTE]
Doug isn't getting flamed, READ the whole thread.
Why am I getting flamed for a Video? More than a 1000 people have used that tape to properly assemble a V-8 Fiero. I'm the only one who is providing Video instructions for everything I sell. It's no Hollywood production but it's been getting the job done so far.
That "big, ugly, heavy piece of steel" used to weigh 18.5 lbs. In case you've been out of touch for a few years, it was changed to 6061 about 4 years ago. New weight = 6.5 lbs. If you want to flame me on something, at least try to use current information.
I hate it when people try to rag on someone with bad information.
Archie
Oh, BTW..... next time you're sitting around watching my 4+hour video and making fun of me...... try to remember that while you are wasting your time, I'm out test driving everyone's V-8 car. I'll bet you can get a good laugh out of thinking about that as you drive to your 9 to 5 job.
Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: Have any of you guys actually picked up and held the Archie engine adapter plate? It's a big, ugly, heavy piece of steel.
Why yes, actually I have. In fact, I picked it up and held it with just two fingers because it's a big, ugly, shiny piece of alluminum!
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01:28 PM
fieroman84 Member
Posts: 485 From: meriden,ct,usa Registered: Mar 2002
No flame here, just curiosity. All the other four-corner weights I've seen were severely biased to the right-rear corner. (( all other weights were on v6 cars, btw )) Although yours does have a right-rear bias, it isn't anywhere near the other numbers I've seen. What is different about yours?
If you look at the car, the engine sits slightly off center to the right. The Battery sits in that corner, as well. With most V8 installs, the engine moves a little bit to the left(see Achies video), some as much as 3 inches (LT1). Also, most move the batery up front or to some other location. as minute as this is, it can make a difference.
Hmmm, maybe this means V8s have BETTER handling than V6s due to superior right to left balance...........
Tell you what I'll do for you guys to clear this mess up. I will weigh my car with the stock V6 tomorrow, and then I will humbly accept a free V8 and kit w/video from Archie and install and weigh it when I'm done. That should clear things up a bit I assume. I mean I would be going out of my way to do this so I would appreciate any donations as well. What do you say guys?
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06:02 PM
Howard_Sacks Member
Posts: 1871 From: Cherry Hill, NJ Registered: Apr 2001
Hey Arch, the kit a respected forum member just recieved this past week was not made using aluminum.
I guess from now on it's not just bad engineering, but fraud.
quote
Oh, BTW..... next time you're sitting around watching my 4+hour video and making fun of me...... try to remember that while you are wasting your time,
That was 4 hours? I only watched for about an hour and trust me, it was worth it. I laughed so hard that I had to stop watching because I forgot my inhaler and was about to have an attack.
quote
Way to let him know what the deal is archie, I thinks its cool that you made a video to help people install there v8's sure is alot better than paper.
uh, yeah go ahead throw your money away.
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07:31 PM
PFF
System Bot
Doug Chase Member
Posts: 1487 From: Seattle area, Washington State, USA Registered: Sep 2001
California kid, that's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.
Archie, why do you have such a big chip on your shoulder? I asked a legitimate question and I asked it very politely without flaming anybody. And yes, you're exactly right. With a possible 40lb error the V6 car could be heavier. That's why it's important to know the accuracy of the scales.
How about instead of mailing you the scales I bring them to the 20th anniversary in Pontiac? You can bring the Federal Reserve Auditor. Then we can weigh a whole bunch of cars at the same time on the same scales. Sound good?
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I would really like to see some very accurate numbers. I know I'm not the only one.
No flame here, just curiosity. All the other four-corner weights I've seen were severely biased to the right-rear corner. (( all other weights were on v6 cars, btw )) Although yours does have a right-rear bias, it isn't anywhere near the other numbers I've seen. What is different about yours?
Mainly, the engine/trans is moved about 2 inches to the left and the battery is relocated to the extreme left front corner of the engine bay.
Me and Jefrysuko weighed or cars on the same scale 2 min apart
Both are 1986 SE's with the 4 speed 3.65 ratio tranny. Both have all the same options, the only exception being my car has the sunroof, and no map pockets.
Mine wieghed 2680 His wieghed 2620
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08:51 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
As I've explained TWICE now, it wasn't a flame. I know you've read those posts where I explain that it isn't a flame. If you want me to do exactly what you asked for, you can lend me your scales. Out of all the people on this Forum, YOU are the person I LEAST expected to consider my post a flame. I'm at a loss as to why you'd like to interject yourself into the middle of this as a victim. FOR THE 3RD TIME, I WASN'T FLAMING YOU!!!. My appologies Sir, I will never bother you again.
quote
Originally posted by Doug Chase:
Archie, why do you have such a big chip on your shoulder? I asked a legitimate question and I asked it very politely without flaming anybody.
And, trying to have some fun with a fellow Rallyist, I responded with a simple request to borrow the scales you wanted info from. God how easy can this be.
quote
Originally posted by Doug Chase: And yes, you're exactly right. With a possible 40lb error the V6 car could be heavier. That's why it's important to know the accuracy of the scales.
In this case where Dave weighed the cars. Both cars were measured on the same scale on the same day within one hour of each other. So even if the scales were off the relative values would still be the same. So his analisys would still be valid.
quote
Originally posted by Doug Chase: How about instead of mailing you the scales I bring them to the 20th anniversary in Pontiac? You can bring the Federal Reserve Auditor. Then we can weigh a whole bunch of cars at the same time on the same scales. Sound good?
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I would really like to see some very accurate numbers. I know I'm not the only one.
You can bring them if you'd like, I'll probally borrow a set locally by then though. I'd be happy to have my cars weighed at that show also. Paul Decker is the NIFE member who works for the Federal Reserve, he's on this Forum maybe you can ask him if he's going to that show. My comment about an auditor, is that some people will only believe weights that they see themselves, but those same people would like us to believe them on their word whenever they say something.
This following statement is posted to this group as a whole, & not you personally.....
MY point of those comments is that it seems that no matter who posts weights and no matter what scales they come off of, & what proof they have, there are people who just won't believe it. It's like EVERYONE who has a V-8 and posts weights is a LIAR ..... You want accurate numbers.... you've seen accurate numbers & you ignore them. Some of you act like the rest of us idiots don't know how to accurately weigh something or evaluate it's results. Just because you own a set of scales don't mean you're the only one who knows how to weigh something correctly. And just because a vehicle is weighed on something besides your scale, doesn't mean the numbers are wrong. During the last weeks at least 10 V-8 owners have posted weights for their cars. These weights come off any number of different scales AND YET, if you analyze the results, you'll find that the average weight gains vary less than 5% from person to person.
I, myself have posted up weight slips from before and after on the same car, on the same scales, by the same customer and no one would believe that either.
I'm with the Kid, I can understand why he doesn't care if his numbers are believed or not.
When you ask for "accurate numbers" without regard to numbers previously posted, you are in effect calling those people liars. That's not the way we should be treating each other. With a few exceptions, If someone comes on here and such & such is true, I'm going to believe him until someone proves him to be a liar. Comments that question the accuracy of fellow Forum members statements, in the way you worded them, are the same as calling them liars.
Even though the consensus of all the numbers offered so far tend to agree with each other, you still want "accurate numbers".
I'm all for more data, but don't make out that the people who have offered data so far are incorrect or lying, that's not fair.
Now if it appears I've got a chip on my shoulder, maybe it's because I'm getting pretty tired of being called a liar. The data being supplied here agrees with what I've been saying all along, yet some people still won't believe it. I don't know what I have to do to finally get some respect here.
Back in the late 80's I did a lot of before/after weigh in's and I even had access to 4 wheel scales and the data I got then agrees with what the Kid and everyone else has posted up here.
Archie <~~~ Getting fed up with being called a liar.
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 11-05-2002).]
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09:11 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
my friend recieved a STEEL archie adapter kit this time last year.
This whole thread has been about stick shift cars, my adapter plates for stick shift cars are 6061. The adapters for automatics are steel & will continue to be.
Archie
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09:19 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Hey Arch, the kit a respected forum member just recieved this past week was not made using aluminum.
I guess from now on it's not just bad engineering, but fraud.
That "respected forum member" is Hugh, Are you here speaking for Hugh? I'm pretty sure that Hugh could speak for himself. Sounds like you're just some jerk trying to make trouble for himself.
You are the Fraud.
Archie
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09:26 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14249 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Just in case the readers are wondering, I'm not running Archie's Kit, so he has no reason to back me up (he knows from experience). I'm running a heavily modified kit that is no longer available, won't mention the name as the changes put it beyond the trade name it was sold under.
but I've heard so many people say the weight of the V8 screws up your steering 
