I posted in an earlier thread that I was going to make a rear deck out of carbon fiber when I got some time. Well, I think that time is now.

The plug I'm making is going to have a mustang style scoop and an integrated whaletale type spoiler. If anyone has other ideas, let me see them.

When I start making these, they're going to be about $500 for a carbon/carbon/aluminum honeycomb and less for a cabon/eglass/aluminum honeycomb. If anyone is crazy enough to want a full carbon, it'll be about $1g.

Yes, I'll be vacuum bagging and using real epoxy(the same stuff that's used on Derrick Bell's Audi S4 hood and splitter in the world challenge), not boat resin.

Howard

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I can't wait to see your progress! Keep us posted (and take lot's of pics ).

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Looking for Fiero posters?

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: The plug I'm making is going to have a mustang style scoop and an integrated whaletale type spoiler. If anyone has other ideas, let me see them.

Can you make one without the integrated whaletale spoiler w/ stock spoiler holes (with the scoop)? I have been looking into making one for my show and go 87 GT.

P.S. No hard feeling about past turbo crap?

Greg

I'll start saving now. I'm definatley interested. And what a great price. I'm a little worried I wont like the wing though. Can't wait to see it, keep us posted.

Sounds cool, I'll be interested to see your progress. I don't know if you'd call this a suggestion or a request, but you may want to consider it; you should first take a mold of the stock decklid, and then modify it with the whale tail and/or mustang scoop. That way you can have more than one mold to cater to a few groups. I realize it's an extra chunk of change for additional molds, but the part is there and ready to have a mold pulled....why not do it?

I'm just saying this because I don't think I'd like a mustang scoop and whale tail on my decklid, as that's getting very busy. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say I like the stock lines of the Fiero wing and decklid. The Fiero wing is extremely popular, not just on Fieros, as it is styled very well; I'm personally not a fan of the whale tail.

Food for thought...if you're going to have the unmodified hood, then the scoop or whale tail, then both...why not use that to your advantage and prepare a couple extra molds? The additional cost in mold supplies could easily be made in three or four extra sales you wouldn't have had otherwise.

Like others said, keep us updated! This is a big step for Fieros to get some bagged CF parts...a good step. You'll be a pioneer!

Bryce
88 GT

Nasco and others, I'm looking for some input so don't hold back.

The plug I'm making right now for the mold is a regular decklid with a styrofoam addition for the scoop on top. I haven't been satisfied at all with the wings that I've made so far.

There's no reason why I couldn't take them off later and use that as a plug.

Here's why I'm doing the extra work and not just producing a stock decklid:

The engine bay gets hot. REAL hot with the turbo. So a scoop would be nice.

The stock wing is going to be a PITA to recreate in carbon. Not impossible though. IMHO, it would be very lame to have a nice lightweight carbon deck and a heavy stock wing.

The integrated whale tale will look unique and not be too much extra work once the plug is done.

Well keep us posted on this I may want one for my Fiero.

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Fierokid's Web site:
http://www.angelfire.com/sports/sfiero
AIM: Fierokid87

Yeah me too, but without the whaletail. And have you thought about the front hood?

Cory

quote Originally posted by CoryFiero: Yeah me too, but without the whaletail. And have you thought about the front hood?

If you're looking at doing a CF vented front hood, might I suggest checking with Rockcrawl on utilizing his JL extractor design (shown below on my GreenGT in black primer).

My suggestion;
Stock decklid, folks can install their own spoilers if wanted.
Separate Mustang scoop with bolts bonded in; folks can drill and install themselves.
whaletail decklid.
But that sure sounds like a lot of work. Regardless good luck on your project. Oh yeah, whaletails rock!

I'm assumming you are making the fastback decklid.!?

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quote Originally posted by onfire: I'm assumming you are making the fastback decklid.!?

That's what I'm thinkin, too. Are ya gonna make a coupe version, too? I'd gladly pay 500 bucks for that!

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1988 Quad 4 Coupe 5 speed
More pics of the coupe
1986 GT 5 speed, 1984 SC Auto
AOL: LastMinuteBastrd AIM: SavedbyJebus

OK. You guys talked me into being lazy. It's just going to be a stock decklid. :-P For now.

I compounded the plug, polished it and put a couple layers of carnuba on it earlier and just loaded the it into my jeep.

I'm going to do the lay up at the lab either saturday or tuesday. Flame me like there's no tomorrow if the mold isn't laid by tuesday night.

About doing stuff modular, it really defeates the purpose of using the woven fiber reinforced composites if it is broken at several different places. And it looks kinda dumb.

If the deck making goes well, I will make a hood too. The front hood actually weighs more than the rear. About weight, we're not going to have as much weight savings as the guys that replace steel hoods because we're replacing composite stuff with better composite stuff, but it will be lighter.

I'm not going to be thinking about using Jon's design though. That would be like copying another person's artwork. I don't know if you're aware of this, but that is an original design that he did. IMHO, it is the best vent out there though.

This deck is going to be for the fastback. Sorry notchback guys. Don't worry, I'm kinda nutz so I'll be making some universal stuff later most likely. For the FSAE race car, so far I'm making the body, seat/integrated fuel cell, paddle shifters, underbody, pedal set, possibly part of the dampers . .. .out of carbon. So most likely some of that will spill over to the fiero.

There's no reason why I couldn't make notchback only parts if there is a real demand. It's just that I have owned only fastbacks so that's what's lieing around here.

Thanks for the positive support.

Also, I know there's a lot of college age people on here. If your school has an Formula SAE team, and 140+ do, you really should get involved even if you're not an automotive engineer. I'm a member even though I'm out of the school of business! It's a lot of fun and you learn A LOT. That's the only reason why I'm know so much about composites and have the confidence to try this for real.

[This message has been edited by Howard_Sacks (edited 07-26-2002).]

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: I'm not going to be thinking about using Jon's design though. That would be like copying another person's artwork. I don't know if you're aware of this, but that is an original design that he did. IMHO, it is the best vent out there though.

I know it was his own design- and I love it too, and that's why I suggested that you might want to discuss it with him... you never know- for a few dollar "commission" he might go for it. It just never hurts to ask.

Can't wait to see your progress!

Aww shucks... count me out for now.. I thought it was going to be notchbacks. I like the front hood but I guess it would be copying, hope you work something out,

Cory

Just to put my 2 cents in. I think the decklid with integrated scoop would be the best. a lot of the posts were people complaining about the whaletail spoiler, not the scoop. As far as the hood, whenever weight on the front of my Fiero becomes a problem, I'll be the first in line. If you do the hood though consider integrating a hood scoop. Again this is just my 2 cents

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Josh

Under Construction

I'm glad to hear you're just making a stock hood first. I think that will gain you the most business, as people can stay stock or add their own stuff if they desire. It not only allows people to use the stock wing (as "lame" as you may think it is, it will happen I guarantee), but also aftermarket aluminum and CF wings; in actuality, the stock wing isn't all that heavy compared to the decklid. Like you said, it would be a PITA to make the stock wing in carbon...I don't think that would sell much anyway.

It's nice to see somebody as ambitious as yourself making some progress. I hope to be to the point you're at in about a year, making panels for my cars (one notch and one fastback). I'll be just making skins that clip on with a few dzus fasteners...as light as possible, and relatively cheap and easy to make. I'm not ready yet, as I don't have enough experience making mold or the vacuum equipment. Oh yes, and I also don't have a killer hook-up on C.F. like *some people* do around here!

I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that I'd like to see pictures of what you're making for your FSAE car as well! I'd love to work with the formula car for my school, but I've got several various reasons (excuses) I can't participate.

Keep us updated!

Bryce
88 GT

I'd love a notchback hood and decklid.

I agree with venting them and leaving the whaletail off the decklid.

The factory wing hardly ways anything compared to the decklid itself. That composite they used for the hood and decklid isn't light.

While mowing my lawn this afternoon, I had a thought about how other people are going to mount this thing.

I was planning on cnc'n some aluminum plates for the hinge and using dzus fastners to secure it instead of the lock. But that's because I don't keep anything in my trunk so security wouldn't be an issue for me.

On my personal one I am going to use a flat bottom to lower the cost, save weight and simplify the process.

But I can do OEM style bottom like Audi does:

Thoughts?

I definitely like it like the Audi has it. Show off all that "carbon-fiberness" Remember integrate the scoop. Sorry, I gotta drop that in everytime I get the chance.

My personal opinion is that the "pretty" underside is completely unnecessary. It will not only take you more time to create and lay up (thus increase labor costs) but will also increase the potential of getting a flawed part (which also increases costs).

I don't know that a pretty underside will sell any more hoods. The increase in cost may possibly lose some customers, even. Remember, you're catering to mostly cheap fiero owners (we all know how it is), NOT Audi owners. A carbon fiber hood is going to look damn good anyway...anyone who WON'T get one because the bottom isn't pretty wasn't going to get one anyway.

Be careful in asking others what they want YOU to do...as most the people on this forum will volunteer you for work all day long! You'll be accomplishing more than any other PFF member yet in the carbon fiber stuff if you make any hood at all...don't get caught up in the details.

As far as mounting; if people want to pay a little extra, you can use hood pins instead of dzus fasteners. There are a lot of hot rod and muscle car guys that use hood pins, and I've seen some with a locking hood pin. I'm sure it would be easy to install one or two, so you can still mount it securely without attaching the stock style stuff that would obviously be hard on the hood.

I'm sure you've got your own ideas, so don't worry too much about what I think.

Bryce
88 GT

Tomorrow's the night....did you clear your schedule?

Just trying to help out the motivation factor...we all look forward to seeing something!

Bryce
88 GT

Thanks :-) tomorrow morning it's on!

I woke up before my alarm went off and was motivated to get it done today before my classes as it was 97 degrees outside!

but I go to crank my jeep and there's NO JUICE! Some punk broke into my car, left my domelights on and completely drained my battery. At least turn the light off! I have to post pictures of my jeep. This does not look like a car that would have anything you would want to steal nor does it.

I rushed to the lab after finding a jump start in hopes of having enough time to do the layup and clean up before class. When I get to the lab, I can't find my bag of composites stuff because someone threw out my squeegies, paint brushes and HARDNER!

So it wasn't meant to be today.

I'll have pics tomorrow night. Nothing impressive, just the mold on the plug.

Nasco, do you have any info on the locking hood pins? I was just concerned other people wouldn't be able to mount it.

Thanks

I can hardly wait to see how this comes out. And I'm with Nascho on the bottom- section... flat is fine! And if you could just make the hinge mounting points & lock cylinder mounting points the same, you could just forget the rest of the shaping... Otherwise locking hood pins would be just as well.

Another thought (witch I know would be a ton more work) would be to relocate/switch the lock mechanism and the hook. In the 1990 Fiero prototype video, they showed that the two elements were switched- which was also nice because you could unlock the trunk and not have to worry about your keys being out of reach.

But I still think you should go ahead with the deck scoop... it matches the lines well enough and is extremely functional!

As far as the locking hood pins, JC Whitney sells some very reasonable. Even has the non-pickable cylindrical locks. As an owner of a notchback in need of a decklid, I say make some! I'll be the first to order! I always thought white and carbon look good together. I'm a sucker for it, my watch is even carbon (the face anyways). Any concerns on the hinge springs, or ya gonna disconnect em and use a prop rod or even lift struts? Struts would be cool...

quote Originally posted by b lo 0: As far as the locking hood pins, JC Whitney sells some very reasonable. Even has the non-pickable cylindrical locks...

I bought mine from Shucks of all places. For like $15

If you make a notchback decklid with a scoop, and no wing or key hole. I will take one as well.

[This message has been edited by onfire (edited 07-30-2002).]

Just got in from getting the first layer on.

It was so hot out that the resin set in the bucket after I set it down for less than two minutes! And this was the slow curing stuff!

There are some bubbles. I had the "little" resin problem. But it's not too bad.

I'll have to do the 2nd layer tomorrow.

Thanks to the audi techniques, I think this is the best piece I've made so far.

Nasco, we're not to far along in design for this year's car, but here are some highlights of last years.

We CNC'd the bell crank out of aluminum and worked the shock so that we could adjust compression and rebound with an external resevoir in house.

We cnc/lathed the front uprights and spindles in house.

Production of this nose went from start to finish in the week before competition, due to lack of funding.

Gotta get to class, I'll be back later for questions.

[This message has been edited by Howard_Sacks (edited 07-30-2002).]

If there was any one piece of information that I would recommend from my experience glassing so far, it would be this:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/polyepoxy.php

Poly Epoxy! After working with polyester resin for a while, this stuff was a lifesaver!

It takes about an hour to start gelling up, so you have an easy half hour of time from mix before you have to worry about it. It's somewhat expensive (60 bucks for the 1 gallon kit)...but it's WELL worth it. It's better quality than most of the polyesters, and if you have an oven you can even post-cure it for better strength. Oh, another nice thing about the long cure time is that you can make one big batch for the whole job...much more efficient and easier.

Like I said, it costs more, but now that I use it I COULDN'T go back. It smells less too (still toxic, so you need a mask, but doesn't leave a permanent smell).

Looks like you've got some hefty air bubbles in there. How do you plan on remedying that? If you had more time to work with it (hint hint) air bubbles on a surface like that would be almost non-existent!

By the way, Aircraft Spruce has great customer service. I had both of my jugs leaking when they showed up at the door...I called, and they had another kit at the door a week later. A bonus was that UPS didn't even want the leaking jugs...so I just used it up before it went bad, a whole gallon of stuff for free!

Thanks for the pics.

Bryce
88 GT

Nasco, thanks, but I'm well read on composites :-) One thing we're discussing though is using prepreg with a heat gun instead of the autoclave on non-structural parts. Do you have any thoughts on this?

I used the poly resin because it's like $17/gallon and I'm too cheap to use the good stuff which is $200/gallon on a mold.

But you've got a point, and the next time I lay up a mold I'd be better off using something betweent those two extremes.

Last time we did lay up, it was about 80 degrees out and we had over an hour with this system. We stopped because we were done, not because it was done. Today, it was 95+ and it turned to GEL in less than 20 minutes. I should have taken a picture of the bucket but I was more concerned about saving my brush at the time. It wasn't just the heat though, I'm sure my technique was better this time.

Actually, what I need to do is convince a couple friends that they need to inhale resin too and it will go a lot smoother.

About the bubbles. It's just a mold and not a finished product, so if I need to use some bondo and sand and paint, it won't be the end of the world. Now, if I cant get the bubbles out of the carbon it'll be a different story.

You're right...a little bondo will take care of the bubbles. I guess I'm just kind of anal that way; the better the first layer of glass is, the lest bondo and sanding necessary, thus a closer reproduced part to the original and less chance to get waves in the part.

Prepreg? I haven't priced any out (as I know it's not in my budget anyway)...but I know it's not cheap. Do you really view it as necessary? I understand that it can help to create a closer to ideal part, but if you're vacuum bagging, you're talking minor details. The vacuum bagging will get rid of any excess resin, so that's not an issue, it's just a matter of making your mixture properly according to manufacturer specs. I think you're fine if you follow the proper ratios and get some HVAC ACTION! I can't imagine you'll be too happy if you get a bad part with the CF because your resin started gelling before you could get the vacuum on it.

Also, like you said, it's non-structural...what's the point of prepreg? You've got vacuum bagging (cut the weight of any excess resin)...basically the part just has to be pretty with that on your side. I'm not seeing any benefits of having prepreg except that it will eliminate mixing your own stuff up...at surely a much greater cost.

On another point...I've never worried too much about my brush. I get the cheap ones and just throw them away (shh..don't tell the EPA) after one use. That way I don't need to worry about them coming apart and getting in the part or risk damaging an expensive brush because I wasn't trying to rush/salvage a part and spaced the brush out.

Oh...and you're fired for not wearing a mask! Come on, they're not expensive; go to your local Lowe's and get the 3M one, it comes with the carbon canisters and everything for a good price. Meddlesome kids... Too bad you're far away, I'd be all about helping you out!

If you haven't got it yet, I recommend Forbes Aird's Fiberglass & Composite Materials. It's got a lot of great information on composites that none of the other (somewhat older) books I've read had. He's a good author, I've got a couple of his books.

Sheesh...I've got to learn to say less or forget how to type so I don't type so much!

Bryce
88 GT

I'll never use fibreglass resin for *anything* ever in my life, just because of the damn fumes!

I've been using a 100% solids 'marine-grade' epoxy from Tap Plastics (about $80/gal) though with Howard's help, I hope to step up to a 100% solids designed expressly for CF work.

I'm eeking to try out pre-preg too, it is that much better (though for non-structual parts, it's actually not ideal, as it's not as pretty. And compareing to bagged&claved wet layup, the weight savings isn't really that much at all. You're right Bryce, the bonous is in the distribution/mixing of the epoxy, you do get a stronger part. Not lighter.)

Best!
Ben.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

Nasco: I actually just read Aird's "Enthusiast's Guide to High Performance Non-Metallic Materials"

About "why prepreg." It's free. That's all I can say. Autoclave time is not however. This is for the race car and not for the fiero.

I had a disposable 3m fiberglass mask on. I don't know if it does much besides fog my glasses though. I know, I know, I need to invest in a charcoal one. You and my dad now?

On throwning out brushes. Um.Poor college student just bought the brush this morning because the stuff bought in the spring was thrown out would rather save money for lunch/girls (you know you have a problem when instead of asking a girl out, you think, "I have better use for that $50")

I think the carbon is going to come from Fabric Development (http://www.fabricdevelopment.com) Good people there. I think I'm going to try to pick it up in person either Friday or early next week.

I'm getting my vacuum bagging supplies from AVT(http://www.avtcomposites.com)

I was told to "dispose" of about 30 sq ft of nomex honeycomb so that's what the first couple hoods might get instead of aluminum(It's lighter guys). I'm not sure where I'm going to buy it from when I run out. Probably the lowest bidder.

I'm thinking about using poly foam instead of honeycomb though to keep costs down. I'm not sure how ridgid it needs to be without a wing. I know with a proper wing it will need more than foam. I do have a source on "carbon" foam that is heavy but I'm not sure how heavy. I'm trying to get some samples.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: Nasco: I actually just read Aird's "Enthusiast's Guide to High Performance Non-Metallic Materials" That's the book...pretty good I thought. About "why prepreg." It's free. That's all I can say. Autoclave time is not however. This is for the race car and not for the fiero. I guess the question then is, how good are you with a heat gun? You're talking a LOT of time with a heatgun. If you don't need pressure, just heat...building an oven is a cakewalk. You can get used elements and stove controls for free or a couple bucks from a used appliance place, then build your own oven out of sheet metal (you can go nuts and insulate it with home insulation and plywood on the outside). To build a heat stable oven you're looking at about a $15-100 investment depending on how good you are at scrounging around. From the sounds of it, you are probably near the $15 side of things. I know you'd have to beat me with a stick before I'd hold a heatgun to prepreg for a part that size multiple times! I had a disposable 3m fiberglass mask on. I don't know if it does much besides fog my glasses though. I know, I know, I need to invest in a charcoal one. You and my dad now? Hey...if you won't take care of yourself, somebody's got to! On throwning out brushes. Um.Poor college student just bought the brush this morning because the stuff bought in the spring was thrown out would rather save money for lunch/girls (you know you have a problem when instead of asking a girl out, you think, "I have better use for that $50") You're telling me...I'm in the same situation (poor college student). Dude, they're a buck fifty for the bigger cheap ones...treat yourself. Girls? They're no good at working with fiberglass, what are you talking about??? I think the carbon is going to come from Fabric Development (http://www.fabricdevelopment.com) Good people there. I think I'm going to try to pick it up in person either Friday or early next week. I'm getting my vacuum bagging supplies from AVT(http://www.avtcomposites.com) I was told to "dispose" of about 30 sq ft of nomex honeycomb so that's what the first couple hoods might get instead of aluminum(It's lighter guys). I'm not sure where I'm going to buy it from when I run out. Probably the lowest bidder. Thanks for the resources, I've already bookmarked this thread...good info. I'm thinking about using poly foam instead of honeycomb though to keep costs down. I'm not sure how ridgid it needs to be without a wing. I know with a proper wing it will need more than foam. I do have a source on "carbon" foam that is heavy but I'm not sure how heavy. I'm trying to get some samples.

I think you're right, with no wing just a cavity created by some foam to get away from the sheet-ish properties will be fine. I imagine if you make a few triangular foam shapes with the underside (similar to the audi picture shown) it'd actually be pretty firm. When adding a wing, things get a lot more complicated, especially considering you'll be poking a couple holes through the weave and expecting things not to crack and such. I wish you didn't have to worry about a wing, as it makes things a lot tougher...fact is, if you plan on selling these, you know somebody's going to do it.

By the way, I sent you a PM.

Bryce
88 GT

I'd go with the foam,and see if you can maybe get some UV lights for the cure on that pre preg.

Can't wait to see it,my console project suffered from the similar luck that you'd had,so I just put the project on hold after the plug.

Nasco, got the pm and replied.

LowCG, the whaletale one/ones I think at least are going to have foam. It's the idea that someone is going to put a multi-element wing onto one of these flat ones that is keeping me from using foam on the rest!

What went wrong with your plug? Maybe I can offer some advice?

Any update on this?

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: [B] For the FSAE race car, so far I'm making the body, seat/integrated fuel cell, paddle shifters, underbody, pedal set, possibly part of the dampers . .. .out of carbon. So most likely some of that will spill over to the fiero. B]

i'm making the bodywork for our FSAE car next year too. i was supposed to do it this year, but the project got shut down by the top brass in ME for some "innapropriate behavior" be a couple of our team members. really sucks, as we would have been one of the top 5 cars there this year. we had the speed in 01, just not the reliability...

bump