As some of you may know, im having an LT1 put in my Fiero By DarthFiero. It will be mated to a 4T60-E, and have a small shot of N2O. Anyways, heres a few pics. Its almost complete, just need the axles shortened and some odds and ends. It was a bit of a PITA at times. We had some trouble with the torque converter and flywheel, and the stock WP had to go, and a remote WP was installed, which brought on some more problems. The main one being they dont make a remote wp for LT1's. But Darth has conquered all obsticles, and it is going to be a very sweet set-up. If anyone wants any sort of motor installed in any sort of vehicle, he is the guy to contact. I would recomend him to ANYONE!!
LMK if you have any questions or comments.
Oh, if you dont like V8's in Fieros, then you can give me a negative Cheers.
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[This message has been edited by Mr. Pat (edited 01-15-2004).]
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02:19 PM
PFF
System Bot
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Thats really nice....a Fiero w/a LT1 auto. Question; are you the first with a LT1 auto in a Fiero? I thought Archie was starting one? What is the HP rating on the auto trans?
86 GT, 18" wheels, GA CD brakes, ST brace, Leather, 3800 Supercharged,DVD-LCD, ZEX NOS 88 Formula 5 speed T-Top stock 88 GT,Leather,T-Top,3800 SC 5 speed.
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02:38 PM
HitesFiero Member
Posts: 401 From: St. Charles, MO, USA Registered: Sep 2003
Are you gana use the LT1 pcm to control the trany? How about some pics of the water pump system? Did you have to make a slight notch in the frame? This looks very interesting!
------------------ Don Hites 88 GT, Getrag 5spd, 4.9 v8 with a Delta cam and other heavy mods. 88 Coupe 5spd Duke (now under restoration)
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02:58 PM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
Looks good. Did this allow you not to have to move the engine over? That would be a plus. Where does the vapor vent lines need to be routed on an LT1. On the LS1 they need to be attached after the thermostat so there is always flow. I would guess it would be the same
Thanks for the kind words. The Motor still needs to be moved over, but due to the size of the tranny it can only be moved over a little less than 2". As far as I know im the only one with the OD tranny on an LT1. The PCM is from a 95 Caprice, you need a 95 comp to run this tranny, it hasnt been programed yet, so we'll see how easy it is to program. As far as HP ratings, its hard to say, its 'rated at 265hp/345lb/ft but thats with the crappy exhaust from an Impalla, I have a full 2.5" exhaust. Couldnt tell you about the vapor vents. I havnt seen the car in a month, i was in Scotland. Just wanted to show you all some pics. My website has some pics of my car if you want to check it out. The address is in my profile.
Looks great! Wait till you take that puppy for a romp! a nice + for another V8 Lover!!!
Chester...
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The Dirty Rat Chopped, dropped and just plain NASTY! 383 Stroker MPFI with N2O 2.5" Drop 11" Brakes 17" Revolutions RCC Coilover Suspension Updated June 29 '03 www.dirtyratracing.org
Hi all, ill try and answere as many of these questions as I can remember. Jim and Dan, it will deffinelty be done by the Dells. It should be running by the end of next week. Now as for me going, I live in GA now, but im going to make every possible attempt to go. This has run me pretty dry. Raydar, im not in Larryville yet. I will probly be there officially in roughly 3 weeks. The WP system.....Its basically a remote WP for a small block chevy, and a friend of rarew66's machined the necessary parts for it to work. Thats really all I can tell you, in the first picture, you can see where the thermostat will go. I do have a picture of the alternator pully system, but it wont let me post it, if someone can resize it I can send it to you.
I just wanted to say thanks to a few people. LoW-KeY-thanks for the NX kit I cant believe it also!!!! Dan-your car was a huge insperation for me. I have the same tips!! Minngreen-thanks for helping me pick this motor! Arch-for your parts! Fred-for helping me with all my Fiero problems Anyone who has a motor swap Boilermaker-for taking me for a ride in your supercharged beast!! And of course, DarthFiero. Who makes this all possible.
Im sure theres people I havn't mentioned, and I appologize. My memory isnt what it used to be. Im getting too old
Ok, it's almost bedtime for the old guy, so I'll post this now.
I'm afraid that when you start running that engine the pressure inside the crankcase will cause oil leaks on the ends of the intake manifold. If there is RTV on there right now, it might last a few weeks before it starts leaking. But it's going to be easier to fix it now then to have a pissing match to figure out who's going to pay to fix it later when it starts to leak.
When you turn the intake manifold around, you have to modify it in the areas of the end seals.
In your picture, look in the areas of my arrows. Those areas are the intake manifold gasket surfaces. I'd say that about 80 to 90% of the width of those gasket surfaces are not covered by a gasket surface on the underside of the intake manifold. If you were able to view the intake manifold gasket surface from the inside of the valley, you'd see some other surfaces that are not covered all the way.
This picture is the best one I could find to show the gasket surfaces at each end of the block. Notice that they are not the same shape at each end. Sure you can take the manifold and turn it around and the heads & ports will match up prefectly. BUT THE END SEALS WON'T. (This pic was taken while his manifold was out to powdercoating)
The next 2 pics. are of Clem's engine before we rotated the manifold, so the manifold is on the correct way in these 2 pics. Note how the gasket surfaces follow the blue line & are shaped differently at each end of the engine. Notice how they match perfectly at each end of the block........ turn that manifold around & they won't match. (These pics were taken while a 2nd manifold was out being modified & we were fitting the engine in the car)
I think that should explain it.
That is why we charge so much to modify and LT1 intake to turn it around. It requires that some welding has to be done to the inside and outside on each gasket surface. Then we have to FlyCut the weld bead down flush, then use a rotary file to smooth the weld bead on the top of the manifold. Finally powdercoat the manifold to hide all that work. Kinda like this......
Hope that helps.
Archie
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11:02 PM
Mastermind Member
Posts: 1396 From: Chicago, 4.9 IL Registered: Apr 2002
Yes, the cat is out of the bag that I am actually doing a V8 conversion!!! No big deal. Two main reasons why I have not started a thread on here about this swap is:
A) I didn't have a digital camera until yesterday (to use on a daily basis)
and
B) When I do an engine swap, I am working by myself and "like to go to town" working so I really don't have a lot of time to answer a bunch of questions, except at night when I am tired. To be honest, I started a thread on this topic over on www.fiero.com since I knew that forum is not as "busy" as this one.
Since I have a little bit of time before bed, let me address some of the questions and observations that came up in this thread so far...
Madcurl -- As far as Mr. Pat and I know, this is the only 4T60-E equipped LT1 Fiero in existance. Most everything that I have been doing here is breaking new ground because of the sheer size of the 4T60-E.
HitesFiero -- I have worked out a wiring plan using relays and the 4T60-E's PRNDL position switch that SHOULD allow the LT1 PCM to control it without any problems. In all honesty, a 4T65-E would have been a better match for the LT1 PCM but I believe the decision to use this tranny was made long before I had even considered doing this swap. I don't have any pics of the water pump system yet as I have yet to determine final mounting for the pump itself. It will be located in the space just ahead of the right rear tire, below the stock battery tray location. Yes, both the cradle and the frame rail in the chassis had to be "slightly" notched, if you could call it that.
LS1swap -- Had to move the engine over. But, with the increased size of the 4T60-E, there would have been no good way to utilize the stock LT1 water pump as it would not have allowed me to weld in chassis reinforcement. I am using the stock 2.8L coolant neck/thermostat housing mounted to a custom block. The stock 2.8L neck has provisions in it for the throttle body coolant crossover (which we are not using on this engine) so all I have to do is hook the vapor line to one of them and plug the other, works quite nicely actually.
LT188GT -- I believe Mr. Pat has plans for a sub up front but I think I have two possibilities for the battery. I was thinking about putting it in the oppsite corner of the engine compartment as there is no stock cruise control servo there. I had to remove the stock battery tray so I will be able to use it over on the reverse corner. Besides, there is nothing that is going to be there and the only thing I really have to worry about is exhaust heat coming up in that location but building a heat-sheild plus redirecting the flow of the engine compartment blower should eliminate any heat problem. Might move it up front like the one is on my Turbo 3800 but at the cost of losing the spare tire. Weight distrubution would be better and the battery would stay cooler. Still up in the air though.
Archie -- Point well taken on your concern about the potential for an oil leak up front on the block, since the intake is turned around. Believe me when I say that I have spent a lot of time thinking about this and measuring and doing my homework. However, I think I arrived at a workable plan. First off, I layed down a nice bead of top quality gasket maker and sat the intake down onto it an let it set up, per instructions on the tube, and after it sat up I finger-tightened the intake down in the proper sequence. I then let the RTV set up over night to fully cure and then torqued the intake down the next day which put some tension on the now vulcanized RTV, effectively holding it in there. As far as crank case pressure is concerned, I am confident that it will not be an issue as we will be using an open-element breather on the valve cover instead of using the stock pipe that routes it thru the throttle body. Which, from personal experience, I have found to be restrictive and does cause a slight vacuum to be allowed to draw on the crank case. In any event, Mr. Pat is kind of short on funds for this project and if a leak does occur down the road he will only be out the cost of intake gaskets and then, of course, paying a machine shop to weld extra material onto the intake. Rest assured this car will get put thru its paces before it leaves my "shop" so if any problems pop up, I can fix them right away.
Well, let me take this opportunity to recap on some of the stuff I have learned while doing this swap. The 4T60-E / LT1 is a very large package. Because of the larger side case on the left side of the tranny, it will only allow you to move it over to the left less than 2". Can't move it any further or the control arm bushing will hit the transmission side pan. There is all kinds of room between the side pan and the chassis frame rail, about 1.5", even with everything moved over less than 2" to the left already.
The stock crank hub has been machined down by 0.5". This makes the clearance between the balancer/pulley about 1/8". This allowed me to contain the pulley system inside the confinds of the stock engine compartment, even though I still had to notch the frame rail. However, since nothing extends outside into the wheel well, this allowed me to use 1x1 box end, thick wall tubing as chassis reinforcement. Brake lines were simply moved to the outside, only careful slight bending was needed to achieve this. The stock water pump would have worked if I wanted to totally cut away the right side of the car. However, in doing this, it would have severly weakened the structural integrety of the right rear of the chassis, as well as the right strut tower; in my honest opinion. Without actual crash test data, it is hard to prove it one way or another. I wanted safety to take presidence over all other concerns here so we went the more expensive route in this situation since a remote electric water pump and custom water inlet/outlet blocks were needed.
Because everything has been moved to the left, custom axles need to be used. Actually, I think I can get away with only shortening the left axle (which moser engineering does for about $60-$95), as I am pretty sure I can piece together the correct length one for the right side.
I will post some more pics and info as I get them.
------------------ power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely. Custom GM Chip Burning | Fiero Engine Conversions | Turbocharging | dtcc.cz28.com
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 01-16-2004).]
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01:20 AM
PFF
System Bot
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Glad the transmission is workin out for ya, cant wait for you to run it to see how it shifts. I was goin to use it for my N* but the block hits the case and the axles run right under the exhaust.
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09:34 AM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
Hey darth nice job. I am going to assume that threaded hole in your adapter for the water neck is for the Fiero temp sensor, and not the heater outlet. Otherwise you will not be pulling coolant over the thermostat. Your block fitting remind me very much of my first set up except I used 90 street elbows. Here is some pics of how I have it now. If I was to do it again I would do it more like the first because the thermostat housing just took too much work. 1. Cross over 2. Outlet of thermostat 3. Outlet to heater
Keep us posted on the use of that auto. I still think that would be a good mate for the LS1. Being that the LS1 doesn't have to be moved over. How much does one of those run from a bone yard? Once again nice job keep the info and pics comming
[This message has been edited by LS1swap (edited 01-16-2004).]
Pat- Looking good man! You better come to the Dell's this year and give me a ride!
Darth- Nice install so far, hope everything with come together as it should!
BTW, I think it's great how the others are posting in this thread to help out with the install based on there experiences (i.e. Archie, LS1Swap). It's nice when we all come together for a common cause and actually produce a positive thread. I think I'm going tear up.
------------------ '87GT Fully modded, 3" Drop on 17's, 3800 turbo on the way.... '92 LeBaron soft top, The Players car. :)
Mr.Pat---Prior to having my LT1 installed by Archie, I had no idea that you could reverse the manifold. After seeing a pic of the Stinger, I asked Archie to reverse mine. After he explained to me what was involved, I was concerned about leaks showing up after some time. Well after 1 year and 10,000 miles I am happy to say that my fears are all gone. I hope that your way works out for you. As for the reversed manifold, when I go to the local car shows in Miami, almost no one sees that it is reversed, not even the LT1 people.
Clem
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10:38 AM
Mr. Pat Member
Posts: 1860 From: Melbourne, VIC Australia Registered: Apr 2003
Pat- Looking good man! You better come to the Dell's this year and give me a ride!
Darth- Nice install so far, hope everything with come together as it should!
BTW, I think it's great how the others are posting in this thread to help out with the install based on there experiences (i.e. Archie, LS1Swap). It's nice when we all come together for a common cause and actually produce a positive thread. I think I'm going tear up.
I hear ya brother!! One big happy family And for you Gary, I just might let you take it for a spin But im not sure if ill make it this yr. Ill do my best though, The Dells is my favourite after all.
We weren't going to reverse the intake at first, but after seeing how much it cleans up the engine bay, I had to. I hope it doesn't leak. But Darth doesnt seem to think it will, so im not worried about it. And if it does, its a cheap fix.
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12:35 PM
KissMySSFiero Member
Posts: 5544 From: Tarpon Springs, FL USA Registered: Nov 2000
are you going to be done and moved to GA in time for super bowl this year? I'm comin to florida that week. If your there, I'd like to come check it out.
Hey darth nice job. I am going to assume that threaded hole in your adapter for the water neck is for the Fiero temp sensor, and not the heater outlet. Otherwise you will not be pulling coolant over the thermostat. Your block fitting remind me very much of my first set up except I used 90 street elbows. Here is some pics of how I have it now. If I was to do it again I would do it more like the first because the thermostat housing just took too much work.
There are two threaded holes in the thermostat housing adapter block. These are for coolant flow IN from the block. Since the stock 2.8L thermostat housing has a drop-in thermostat and heater hose outlet, there is no need to put a thermostat in the bottom. Basically coolant will flow thru the stock 2.8L thermostat housing just like it would on the stock Fiero 2.8L.
There are four holes in the front of the LT1 block, 2 on each side. The top set of holes is for coolant flow IN to the engine, which is directed to the heads first, which is why the LT1 is said to have reverse flow cooling system. The electric water pump has 2 discharge outlets which will be connected directly to these top holes. The coolant comes out from the block in the two bottom holes which are connected directly to the thermostat adapter block. The heater hose outlet fitting on the stock 2.8L neck sits just below where the thermostat will set. This way coolant will ALWAYS flow past the bottom of the thermostat when it is closed.
While we are on the subject of coolant let me explain how I intend to control the water pump. The PCM coolant temp sensor is in the front cylinder head. (In late model vehicles GM started putting the PCM sensor there as well). The PCM has 2 coolant fan outputs. I was reading up on electric water pumps and found that most are offered with a coolant temp switch that turns them on at 140 degrees F and off at 120 degrees F. Well, since the Fiero only has one fan it makes perfect sense to use one of the fan output circuits on the PCM to control the water pump. There is no reason to have that thing running ALL the time, especially during warm-up. And since the ECT sensor is located in the head between two exhaust ports, it will always be able to sense the hottest part of the engine regardless if the coolant is flowing or not. I also plan to program the PCM to shut down the engine in the event that coolant temp rises above 240-250 degrees F in case of electric pump failure. Ultimately that decision is up to Mr. Pat if he wants that safety measure built-in.
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12:55 PM
Mr. Pat Member
Posts: 1860 From: Melbourne, VIC Australia Registered: Apr 2003
are you going to be done and moved to GA in time for super bowl this year? I'm comin to florida that week. If your there, I'd like to come check it out.
Lookin good too.
Thats Feb 1st right? Its possible, but I cant honelty say. Do you plan on staying a few days? Ill let you know when I leave if its in time. But as its looking, I dont think so.
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01:33 PM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
There are two threaded holes in the thermostat housing adapter block. These are for coolant flow IN from the block. Since the stock 2.8L thermostat housing has a drop-in thermostat and heater hose outlet, there is no need to put a thermostat in the bottom. Basically coolant will flow thru the stock 2.8L thermostat housing just like it would on the stock Fiero 2.8L.
There are four holes in the front of the LT1 block, 2 on each side. The top set of holes is for coolant flow IN to the engine, which is directed to the heads first, which is why the LT1 is said to have reverse flow cooling system. The electric water pump has 2 discharge outlets which will be connected directly to these top holes. The coolant comes out from the block in the two bottom holes which are connected directly to the thermostat adapter block. The heater hose outlet fitting on the stock 2.8L neck sits just below where the thermostat will set. This way coolant will ALWAYS flow past the bottom of the thermostat when it is closed.
While we are on the subject of coolant let me explain how I intend to control the water pump. The PCM coolant temp sensor is in the front cylinder head. (In late model vehicles GM started putting the PCM sensor there as well). The PCM has 2 coolant fan outputs. I was reading up on electric water pumps and found that most are offered with a coolant temp switch that turns them on at 140 degrees F and off at 120 degrees F. Well, since the Fiero only has one fan it makes perfect sense to use one of the fan output circuits on the PCM to control the water pump. There is no reason to have that thing running ALL the time, especially during warm-up. And since the ECT sensor is located in the head between two exhaust ports, it will always be able to sense the hottest part of the engine regardless if the coolant is flowing or not. I also plan to program the PCM to shut down the engine in the event that coolant temp rises above 240-250 degrees F in case of electric pump failure. Ultimately that decision is up to Mr. Pat if he wants that safety measure built-in.
I should have caught on to that with the four fittings on the block. The LS1 is the same with the exception that it is not reversed cooled. That is how I want to do it if I install another LS1( with the thermostat mounted off the block). I used to have my water pump stay off until the coolant reached 100 degrees. Never had a problem but was always nerves thinking what if the pump never turned on or had air pocket by the temp sensor would it overheat. I switched and it now runs with IPV. Just a more secure feeling knowing the coolant is always flowing. I used a CSI digital controller not the PCM.
Mrpat you will have a nice car when that is done.... congrats!
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03:42 PM
PFF
System Bot
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
With all those brass fittings I would install an adel clamp on the hose and secure it to that unused mounting boss there on the side of the block. Thats alot of leverage that could eventually break the fitting and cause a massive oil leak/fire.
Steven
------------------ '02 Subaru WRX 14.61@91.87mph bone stock '95 R33 Nissan Skyline GTR V-Spec NISMO stage 1 400bhp '92 Mini Cooper 1.3i 74 brain-numbing hp!!! '87 Fiero GT 4.9/4T60e w/3.33 final drive, ZEX nitrous 65hp shot, 88 cradle w/ 325# coil overs, Poly everything, Upgraded sway bars, KYB's, 16X7 M11's, 11.25 "Zettner" front brakes, Complete MSD ignition w/ 6AL box, Custom 2.5" Flowmaster exhaust, Grand Sport Corvette paint, Carbon fiber interior trim, '98 T/A CD w/ ETR, Reverse Indiglo guages, Pillar mounted AutoMeter O2, Hella H4 conversion. Follow its built up here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/027460.html Sadly... SOLD.
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09:55 AM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
With all those brass fittings I would install an adel clamp on the hose and secure it to that unused mounting boss there on the side of the block. Thats alot of leverage that could eventually break the fitting and cause a massive oil leak/fire.
Steven
Good point. I was going to do that just got caught up in doing everything else. Thanks for reminding me.
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03:45 PM
BV MotorSports Member
Posts: 4821 From: Oak Hill, WV Registered: May 2001
I suggest putting an airfoil in the throttle body, cheap horse power. Just a little splitter that goes between the butterflys on the TB to smooth out incoming air. I believe it was dyno tested to produce about 5 extra rear wheel horse power on Horse Power TV (when it was Hot Rod TV). They're 44.95 on www.impalaclub.com but can probably be found cheaper. My dad had on on his 94 Impala SS before he switched to a BBK throttle body
------------------ + a silver 85 2M4 *RIP gold 87 2M4* --Adam-- IM AOL: FieroGT5speed
Actually, I have found that the airfoil really does work. I flow tested a stock throttle body with and without an airfoil and here are the results:
Stock TPI/LT1 48mm throttle body w/o airfoil: 783.0 CFM
Stock TPI/LT1 48mm throttle body w/ airfoil: 821.9 CFM
I don't believe the airfoil increases airflow directly; rather what it does do is reduces turbulance created by the center wall between the throttle bores.
Cheers.
